Physios - a waste of money???

Auslander said:
She's right. To operate with in the rules, they must speak the vet before seeing the horse for the first time, then they can carry out routine MOT's for the rest of the horses life without having to ask permission again. Vet involvement would only then become necessary if the horse develops a specific problem.
Click to expand...


I'm sure this isn't true. The law says that only a vet may diagnose a horse. Anyone is allowed to treat it as long as that treatment causes no harm. As long as they do not diagnose, then any physio or any charlatan can legally treat a horse with no reference to a vet at all.

So, for example, my physio can say 'oh he's a bit tight through his shoulder, I'll release it. And she can do that, as long as she does not say 'oh he's a bit tight through his shoulder because of x, y and z problem.



If you think this is wrong, can you point me to the law that says a physio can't treat a horse without referring to vet, because I can't find it.
 
ycbm said:
I'm sure this isn't true. The law says that only a vet may diagnose a horse. Anyone is allowed to treat it as long as that treatment causes no harm. As long as they do not diagnose, then any physio or any charlatan can legally treat a horse with no reference to a vet at all.

So, for example, my physio can say 'oh he's a bit tight through his shoulder, I'll release it. And she can do that, as long as she does not say 'oh he's a bit tight through his shoulder because of x, y and z problem.



If you think this is wrong, can you point me to the law that says a physio can't treat a horse without referring to vet, because I can't find it.
Click to expand...


From a local therepist's website. I haven't read The Veterinary Surgeons Act 1966 but I guess it' sin there somewhere.....

"3. Are they working with veterinary consent?

The law is clear: If an individual treats an animal without veterinary consent they are breaking the law. The Veterinary Surgeons Act 1966 makes it illegal for any person to treat an animal unless they are a veterinary surgeon or a "paraprofessional"."
 
I am not a practising body worker anymore but you absolutely have to have vet permission to work on a horse (and note, only a vet can diagnose and 'treat' a horse). Most vets are simply bemused when you phone for permission imo and I never had one say no.
 
OK, BVA site says they can't treat, so that's clear.

What's not clear is why veterinary consent should be required for a physio to check a horse over where there are no known problems. That does not seem to be the law at all, and that's the bit I'm now confused about. Can anyone point me to the bit of law that says veterinary consent is required for a physio to massage a healthy horse?
 
Last edited:
Hows this - copied from the RCVS website:

Physiotherapy, Osteopathic Therapy and Chiropractic Therapy

19.19 The Veterinary Surgeons (Exemptions) Order 2015 (which revokes theVeterinary Surgery (Exemptions) Order 1962) allows the treatment of an animal by physiotherapy if the following conditions are satisfied:
(1) the first condition is that the person providing the treatment is aged 18 or over

(2) the second condition is that the person is acting under the direction of a qualified person who—

(a) has examined the animal, and

(b) has prescribed the treatment of the animal by physiotherapy.

19.20 The Order specifies that a qualified person “means a person who is registered in the Register of Veterinary Surgeons or the Supplementary Veterinary Register”.

19.21 'Physiotherapy' is interpreted as including all kinds of manipulative therapy. It therefore includes osteopathy and chiropractic but would not, for example, include acupuncture or aromatherapy.
 
ycbm said:
OK, BVA site says they can't treat, so that's clear.

What's not clear is why veterinary consent should be required for a physio to check a horse over where there are no known problems. That does not seem to be the law at all, and that's the bit I'm now confused about. Can anyone point me to the bit of law that says veterinary consent is required for a physio to massage a healthy horse?
Click to expand...

I guess otherwise the physio only has the owners word for it that the horse is healthy. What if the vet has said certain movements / strtches / pressures etc would be detrimental to the horse, the owner doesn't understand / disagrees and gets a physio in without disclosing the horses history?
I know when physios treat humans there is a long list of medical questions they need to ask in order to establish whether it's safe to treat you, or if there is anything they need to avoid.
 
ycbm said:
OK, BVA site says they can't treat, so that's clear.

What's not clear is why veterinary consent should be required for a physio to check a horse over where there are no known problems. That does not seem to be the law at all, and that's the bit I'm now confused about. Can anyone point me to the bit of law that says veterinary consent is required for a physio to massage a healthy horse?
Click to expand...

Yup, thanks, I updated my post, so I'll repeat this one, cos this is what I'm unclear about still.

A massage of a healthy horse is not treatment, surely ? ? A preventative check over isn't treatment, is it? Or is the definition so loose that we aren't even supposed to have a bodyworker touch our horses without informing a vet? Cos if so, all my friends are breaking the law with routine physio visits.
 
little_critter said:
I guess otherwise the physio only has the owners word for it that the horse is healthy. What if the vet has said certain movements / strtches / pressures etc would be detrimental to the horse, the owner doesn't understand / disagrees and gets a physio in without disclosing the horses history?
I know when physios treat humans there is a long list of medical questions they need to ask in order to establish whether it's safe to treat you, or if there is anything they need to avoid.
Click to expand...

Good point.
 
ycbm said:
Yup, thanks, I updated my post, so I'll repeat this one, cos this is what I'm unclear about still.

A massage of a healthy horse is not treatment, surely ? ? A preventative check over isn't treatment, is it? Or is the definition so loose that we aren't even supposed to have a bodyworker touch our horses without informing a vet? Cos if so, all my friends are breaking the law with routine physio visits.
Click to expand...

It would be the massage therapist/body worker breaking the law, so if your friends do one of these complimentary type therapies without getting permission from client vets then yes they are breaking the law.

I've over the years used a variety of Physio's/similar with varying success. All bar one has sought permission from vet. The one that didn't I cancelled as assumed they were a charlatan
 
ycbm said:
OK, BVA site says they can't treat, so that's clear.

What's not clear is why veterinary consent should be required for a physio to check a horse over where there are no known problems. That does not seem to be the law at all, and that's the bit I'm now confused about. Can anyone point me to the bit of law that says veterinary consent is required for a physio to massage a healthy horse?
Click to expand...

Equine bodyworkers of all types need veterinary permission the first time they treat / work on / massage a horse, else their insurance will not be valid. Which puts both them, and the owner at risk if things were to go wrong.
 
ycbm said:
Yup, thanks, I updated my post, so I'll repeat this one, cos this is what I'm unclear about still.

A massage of a healthy horse is not treatment, surely ? ? A preventative check over isn't treatment, is it? Or is the definition so loose that we aren't even supposed to have a bodyworker touch our horses without informing a vet? Cos if so, all my friends are breaking the law with routine physio visits.
Click to expand...

Your friends aren't breaking the law (or, more accurately, complying with the Veterinary Surgeons Exemption Order)- but the bodyworkers they use are - if they aren't seeking approval from the horses vet. Basically, if a bodyworker is engaged to lay hands on the horse, whether it be massage, releasing a tight bit (which would count as treatment btw), checking over, etc - if they do it without having spoken to the vet, even if it was years previously, they are not abiding by the rules. It does seem a bit silly, but to break it down into specific dos and don'ts would make things even more complicated - so it's a blanket ruling. Quite a good way if sorting out the wheat from the chaff though. If a bodyworker told me they could work on my horse without vet consent, I'd be very suspicious. Quite apart from anything else, they won't be covered by their insurance if something goes wrong while they're working on a horse without consent
 
Auslander said:
Your friends aren't breaking the law (or, more accurately, complying with the Veterinary Surgeons Exemption Order)- but the bodyworkers they use are - if they aren't seeking approval from the horses vet. Basically, if a bodyworker is engaged to lay hands on the horse, whether it be massage, releasing a tight bit (which would count as treatment btw), checking over, etc - if they do it without having spoken to the vet, even if it was years previously, they are not abiding by the rules. It does seem a bit silly, but to break it down into specific dos and don'ts would make things even more complicated - so it's a blanket ruling. Quite a good way if sorting out the wheat from the chaff though. If a bodyworker told me they could work on my horse without vet consent, I'd be very suspicious. Quite apart from anything else, they won't be covered by their insurance if something goes wrong while they're working on a horse without consent
Click to expand...

The last line here is also relevant to owners who could find their horse is "injured" by a physio and that their equine insurance will not cover if the physio had not got consent to "treat" the horse.

A physio I used got caught up in a disagreement between vet and owner with the vet stating they had not given consent for treatment, it became rather nasty and my physio luckily could prove she had been given consent, after that she always got it in writing and would not touch a horse until consent was given, over the years she came across many horses treated by various therapists without consent who had completely spoiled any chance the horses may have had of a useful life, a few ended up pts as their condition was beyond veterinary treatment by the time the owners did get the vets involved, yes the owner is ultimately to blame but when the therapist is convincing enough it can be hard to see what is in front of you.
 
I have learnt a lot from this thread, thank you. I'm sure my own physio, supposed to be coming Monday, has not asked my vet for permission, and I certainly haven't. Two others in the past didn't either. All list A ACPAT, too.
 
ycbm said:
I have learnt a lot from this thread, thank you. I'm sure my own physio, supposed to be coming Monday, has not asked my vet for permission, and I certainly haven't. Two others in the past didn't either. All list A ACPAT, too.
Click to expand...

Practice certainly seems to be pretty variable. Over the last 8 years my two between them have seen:
- acupuncture vet on referral from normal vet
- traditional chiropractor who didn't even ask me whether I had spoken to my vet about her visit.
- ACPAT physio recommended by vet
- equine sports massage lady who didn't ask about vet permission or even ask which practice the horse was registered with
- equine sports massage lady who took my word for it my vet was happy for her to give routine massage, but she did take contact details of vet practice so may have called them to check I suppose. She also sees my friend's horse and has declined to do him on one occasion when he was lame following a field incident and the vet was involved. Appointment was rearranged and took place after horse was sound again.
 
I use a mctimoney practitioner and she is fantastic. She always sees him trot up. He always feels so much better after a treatment. She is worth her weight in gold.
 
I think it depends on the physio. I recently moved and so changed physios as mine didn't want to do the extra mileage. Well, I'm so glad she didn't. The new one is so much better. She has been spot on with all my horses' issues and she really gives them a thorough session.
 
I would be inclined to report your physio OP to his professional body, sounds like he didn't know a horse from a cow and frankly didn't know what to do!

Did he, for example, explain his metholodogy/approach? Did he explain what would happen in a typical consultation? Did he see the horse walk and/or move? Did he ask case history and what the horse is used for? Did he ask whether the animal was currently receiving veterinary treatment (in which case the protocol would have been to ask for a referral).......... ???

I think you are right to be very unhappy with that treatment, I would have been too :(
 
Back with a bang said:
Okay so today I had the physio out for my horse and I have to admit I think it was a complete waste of money. He poked and prodded and announced that my horse had really confused him and he couldn't find anything wrong. Is that a good thing?

He had a lot of gadgets with him and was holding various bits of equipment up to the horse and it all seemed pointless to me. The reason I had him out was that he wasnt level behind sometimes in trot on a circle. He didn't want to see him move and the whole consultation was done in the stable. I just feel really deflated by it.

What's everyone's opinions on the physio???
Click to expand...
First of all any decent physio watches your horse walk and trot on straight line, all 3 paces on lunge and watches you ride along with checking your saddle.
And they have to get permission before treating your horse
Sounds like an incompent physio to me.
 
Thanks for all your replies. I'm glad I'm not the only one who is concerned about this man who calls himself a physio. I will look into what qualifications he has got, yes I know I probably should have done it first, but he was recommended to me.
I didn't realise they usually go on referral from the vet, he never even asked if my horse had seen the vet. I'm so annoyed about the whole thing, what a waste of money!!
 
This is interesting. In my job we refer to human sports physio, we do not have a doctors consent, if we or the sports physio take a history, do an assessment and we think the doctor may need to check it out we do so. Most GP's have very little idea of the exercises needed, and even after a serious injury the physio will be in control of the regrading for return to full exercise/sport.
I suppose the checking of the person qualifications is the first step,https://www.acpat.org/,https://www.acpat.org/scope-of-practice
My husband is being treated by a chiropractor, self referral. To be honest I think a lot of it is smoke and mirrors, I have worked in orthopaedic theatres and the brut force needed to move bones, and fight against muscles even when the human patient is sedated is huge. Its keeps my husband happy, when really stopping doing what he did the hurt is back is more effective and cheaper. I have kept away from the post knocker this week.
 
Back with a bang said:
Thanks for all your replies. I'm glad I'm not the only one who is concerned about this man who calls himself a physio. I will look into what qualifications he has got, yes I know I probably should have done it first, but he was recommended to me.
I didn't realise they usually go on referral from the vet, he never even asked if my horse had seen the vet. I'm so annoyed about the whole thing, what a waste of money!!
Click to expand...

A proper physio can only be qualified with Acpat
Then you get qualified chiropractor, osteopath , equine spirits massage , shiatsu for some reason people call theses sort physios but they are not .
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top