Piaffe and other dressage moves...

[Pigeon]

So (just clearing my novice head here!) can piaffe actually be damaging to the horse?

Yes, if the horse isn't ready. It's like asking someone who is unfit to go and perform high level ballet movements. You will get strained muscles/sore back and so on.

 

[Sol]

Also if you get bored at prelim, try moving up to novice and elementary? Even just for experience, there are some much more interesting and complex tests.

I don't compete any more, my horse was working elem level approximately but is currently in very light work due to my illness. My point was not that I don't compete at a higher level (would if health/transport/money all decided to play nice) but that I don't have a warmblood... I'm not going to give up. I would love to train my Fell in all the grand prix moves when he is older, I consider it my personal challenge! After all, a Welsh Cob just did it's first grand prix, why not other natives? I think it's very sad that we see almost exclusively warmbloods in the ring still (I'm loving seeing a number of other breeds creeping in though), and think it probably does a lot to discourage people from doing dressage. Also especially the flashy movers who are not all that correct seeming to be at the forefront of it all - have you seen the slow motion footage on youtube from the Olympics of some of the piaffe/passage?

Any horse is capable of doing piaffe after some conditioning, but some horses will find it much harder than others, especially if they aren't fit enough, and I personally don't think it's fair to put them through it. It will put unnecessary strain on their muscles and joints, and ultimately what is the point?

There is a reason dressage is a ladder of training - you get competent at one level before progressing to the next, and this is so your horse is physically and mentally ready for the harder movements. You can't teach a horse piaffe until it knows how to collect, and you can't teach a horse to collect until it knows how to work properly from behind and lift itself off the forehand.

Also like I said, is it a correct piaffe or just trotting in place? This is where the difference between 'dressage' and 'tricks' comes into play.

Of course some will find it harder - same as people! I don't think anything (or anyone) not fit enough to do something should be asked to do it - that would be silly, and dangerous. But then, all horses should be fittened up correctly, and worked progressively, up the levels & movements in my mind. Isn't that common sense? But, I think that the piaffe has benefits in strengthening the horse for other movements, and improving the horse's skill at other things.

No, I'm definitely talking about piaffe. Better piaffe than many of the horses I've seen at grand prix produce

 

[TarrSteps]

As an example though, I don't have the best conformation in my own knees and hips (tracking is off). I was an okay middle distance runner in school and I'm more or less the right shape but it would have been highly unwise of me to continue running, however capable I might have seemed initially, as I would likely not be functional now. I can do other activities to which I am more suited (does lying on the couch count?) and I prefer to enjoy those without pain rather than be forced to do something for which I am not suited. Why would I not make the same choice for my horses BEFORE it gets to the point of obvious discomfort?

If I blow out a horse's hocks teaching it something to make it "better" I have to seriously consider whether or not I've really done good in the world.

I would also make the point we are talking about conformation and aptitude, not breed. You will likely find more dressage bred (not all warmbloods are dressage bred btw) with an aptitude for piaffe than say, Fell ponies, but that doesn't mean every warmblood can piaffe and every Fell pony can't. Good training is about applying the ideals to the individual, not in isolation.

Re competition being about ego. . . I hear this all the time from "classical" people. I would not argue the point but surely there is something innately egotistical about saying "I can teach any horse anything, regardless of its suitability for the task." I'm not picking a fight - I have a strong does of independent thinking in my approach to horses and have really enjoyed working with some very "non-traditional" horses, but age has tempered me somewhat and I know understand that what I want, or even what i may think is best, is not the be all and end all.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think there is one right answer. We are all muddling about. But any conversations about horses that involve words like "all" or "always" or "never" start to make me nervous.

 

[Iberian girl]

Loberia, my ten-pence-worth is be very careful before teaching passage and piaffe without training into it gradually (i.e. over years of collecting the trot to get to passage & piaffe). Similarly be very sure you want your horse to "know" Spanish walk.

The reason for my counsel is that my PRE was taught Spanish Walk and passage from the ground before he was imported to the UK. Now I'm having to un-teach him. The Spanish Walk is just irritating - try putting boots or bandages on a horse that thinks tapping his front leg is a cue to throw it out in front of him... some very narrow misses on my getting a broken nose or jaw when I first got him! Also, accidentally tap his front leg (v.v. lightly) with my schooling whip whilst getting ready to mount - again, out flies this hoof.

Passage/piaffe is more problematic. His trot (and walk for that matter) are very poor because he's been taught and rewarded for high stepping, no ground covering, showy action. He's a PRE so his build is never going to facilitate a long, low, relaxed outline but when he passages he's not collected, not on the bit, not engaging his hind legs - it's a "fake" passage for dressage purposes. So again, myself and my trainer are having to un-teach this.

Also, less scientifically, I've noticed he Spanish walks and piaffes when he's stressed - e.g. goose suddenly flaps it's wings in front of him, he trots on the spot; tied up in the yard when all his friends are heading out in to the field, he starts throwing his front legs out in very exaggerated pawing action. I've never seen similar (re)actions from the grand prix level horses I've been lucky enough to work with. I can't help thinking that if he associates these actions with stressful situations then him being taught them can't have been a good experience in his head.

Just MHO!

 

[DabDab]

Loberia, my ten-pence-worth is be very careful before teaching passage and piaffe without training into it gradually (i.e. over years of collecting the trot to get to passage & piaffe). Similarly be very sure you want your horse to "know" Spanish walk.

The reason for my counsel is that my PRE was taught Spanish Walk and passage from the ground before he was imported to the UK. Now I'm having to un-teach him. The Spanish Walk is just irritating - try putting boots or bandages on a horse that thinks tapping his front leg is a cue to throw it out in front of him... some very narrow misses on my getting a broken nose or jaw when I first got him! Also, accidentally tap his front leg (v.v. lightly) with my schooling whip whilst getting ready to mount - again, out flies this hoof.

Passage/piaffe is more problematic. His trot (and walk for that matter) are very poor because he's been taught and rewarded for high stepping, no ground covering, showy action. He's a PRE so his build is never going to facilitate a long, low, relaxed outline but when he passages he's not collected, not on the bit, not engaging his hind legs - it's a "fake" passage for dressage purposes. So again, myself and my trainer are having to un-teach this.

Also, less scientifically, I've noticed he Spanish walks and piaffes when he's stressed - e.g. goose suddenly flaps it's wings in front of him, he trots on the spot; tied up in the yard when all his friends are heading out in to the field, he starts throwing his front legs out in very exaggerated pawing action. I've never seen similar (re)actions from the grand prix level horses I've been lucky enough to work with. I can't help thinking that if he associates these actions with stressful situations then him being taught them can't have been a good experience in his head.

Just MHO!

Slightly off topic, but I once met a horse who was even better than that - he had been trained using a clicker to 'shake hands'. So if you opened the stable door and he decided he wanted a treat you would get a hoof in your crotch

In all seriousness you make an excellent point - highly collected work aside - teaching a horse 'moves' can easily be disastrous. They are big dangerous animals to have performing tricks.

 

[TarrSteps]

Very true! I met a pony whose owners had taught it to "dance" - as in put its hooves on their shoulders and waltz around - as a foal!! Pretty hard to unteach that.

It is a valid point. Anything you teach a horse is his to "use" for good or bad. If you teach "tricks" in isolation, rather than within a system that makes sense to the horse, you run the risk of ending up with an unpredictable behaviour.

 

[Cortez]

Loberia, my ten-pence-worth is be very careful before teaching passage and piaffe without training into it gradually (i.e. over years of collecting the trot to get to passage & piaffe). Similarly be very sure you want your horse to "know" Spanish walk.

The reason for my counsel is that my PRE was taught Spanish Walk and passage from the ground before he was imported to the UK. Now I'm having to un-teach him. The Spanish Walk is just irritating - try putting boots or bandages on a horse that thinks tapping his front leg is a cue to throw it out in front of him... some very narrow misses on my getting a broken nose or jaw when I first got him! Also, accidentally tap his front leg (v.v. lightly) with my schooling whip whilst getting ready to mount - again, out flies this hoof.

Passage/piaffe is more problematic. His trot (and walk for that matter) are very poor because he's been taught and rewarded for high stepping, no ground covering, showy action. He's a PRE so his build is never going to facilitate a long, low, relaxed outline but when he passages he's not collected, not on the bit, not engaging his hind legs - it's a "fake" passage for dressage purposes. So again, myself and my trainer are having to un-teach this.

Also, less scientifically, I've noticed he Spanish walks and piaffes when he's stressed - e.g. goose suddenly flaps it's wings in front of him, he trots on the spot; tied up in the yard when all his friends are heading out in to the field, he starts throwing his front legs out in very exaggerated pawing action. I've never seen similar (re)actions from the grand prix level horses I've been lucky enough to work with. I can't help thinking that if he associates these actions with stressful situations then him being taught them can't have been a good experience in his head.

Just MHO!

Ah, but he's just being a Spaniard! This is what they do - they are not like any other type of horse. Which of course is why we love them, no? Buying a Spanish horse and then trying to make them into something else is not going to be a happy journey, for the owner, nor the horse.

 

[shortstuff99]

Also, less scientifically, I've noticed he Spanish walks and piaffes when he's stressed - e.g. goose suddenly flaps it's wings in front of him, he trots on the spot; tied up in the yard when all his friends are heading out in to the field, he starts throwing his front legs out in very exaggerated pawing action. I've never seen similar (re)actions from the grand prix level horses I've been lucky enough to work with. I can't help thinking that if he associates these actions with stressful situations then him being taught them can't have been a good experience in his head.

Just MHO!

My baby Spanish does this and she has ever been taught either! Must be an innate thing to do.

 

[TarrSteps]

Which goes to my point that there are horses for courses! A behaviour that comes very easily to one horse might be very difficult, even virtually impossible to teach another horse.

We tend to rank behaviour in "difficulty" according to very rigid standards and systems but there are always going to be variations and individual strengths and weaknesses.

Also to the individual not breed idea, a friend of mine had a TB jumper that did a mean Spanish walk, especially right before the whistle to start a round. It's very unlikely anyone taught her - my friend had her since she came out of racing - but it was her "go to" when she was restrained.

 

[foxy1]

My gelding 'bows' when he's stressed out, as in, front end right down and nose on the floor. I think I inadvertantly taught him to do it as when he did it the first few times I laughed, and also released him from what I was asking him to do...... now it's one of his 'go to's ' in sticky situations. I met a group of walkers in back packs the other day and got some very funny looks as my boy was bobbing up and down bowing at them....!!

 

[Pigeon]

that I don't have a warmblood... I'm not going to give up. I would love to train my Fell in all the grand prix moves when he is older, I consider it my personal challenge! After all, a Welsh Cob just did it's first grand prix, why not other natives? I think it's very sad that we see almost exclusively warmbloods in the ring still (I'm loving seeing a number of other breeds creeping in though), and think it probably does a lot to discourage people from doing dressage. Also especially the flashy movers who are not all that correct seeming to be at the forefront of it all - have you seen the slow motion footage on youtube from the Olympics of some of the piaffe/passage?

I do actually agree with this! Such a shame when judges get blinded by flashy movement

 

[Pigeon]

Very true! I met a pony whose owners had taught it to "dance" - as in put its hooves on their shoulders and waltz around - as a foal!! Pretty hard to unteach that.
.

 

[Loberia]

Could you actually train a horse to perform a move like Piaffe, but it isn't Piaffe?
For example, the horse may be struggling to perform a dressage Piaffe, but couldn't you (for trick sake) teach the horse to do a move which looks like Piaffe, but doesn't put so much strain on the body?

Thanks!

 

[TarrSteps]

Technically you could train a fake piaffe but frankly, that would likely put MORE strain on the horse's body, especially since it would not be part of a system so you could not condition for it.

"Trotting on the spot" is bloody hard work, no matter which way you slice it.

 

[spookypony]

Very true! I met a pony whose owners had taught it to "dance" - as in put its hooves on their shoulders and waltz around - as a foal!! Pretty hard to unteach that.

It is a valid point. Anything you teach a horse is his to "use" for good or bad. If you teach "tricks" in isolation, rather than within a system that makes sense to the horse, you run the risk of ending up with an unpredictable behaviour.

to the waltzing trick...how utterly stupid of them!

This thread brings up many interesting questions. I just attended a 4-day clicker clinic with Alexandra Kurland, and one of the things that struck me was how methodical her approach was. Even those exercises that appeared like slightly pointless tricks at first (say, standing on a square of carpet) ended up having applications in developing e.g. lateral work in a very classical way. I think I may do a thread about that clinic, actually, since there appeared to be a certain amount of interest when I did my loading practice. It was really fascinating.

I think when aiming for competition, we often forget that a dressage test is not an aim in itself (or shouldn't be); it's more of a diagnostic to give a basis for comparison of horses at a similar point of their training. Seeing it as a series of "moves" to be learned, without a framework which relates the succession and purpose of the movements, seems to me rather like the "teaching to the test" that we complain about with schoolkids, where a set of predetermined questions can be answered, but there is little understanding of the context and deeper substance. It's something I really want to learn much more about.

 

[TarrSteps]

to the waltzing trick...how utterly stupid of them!

This thread brings up many interesting questions. I just attended a 4-day clicker clinic with Alexandra Kurland, and one of the things that struck me was how methodical her approach was. Even those exercises that appeared like slightly pointless tricks at first (say, standing on a square of carpet) ended up having applications in developing e.g. lateral work in a very classical way. I think I may do a thread about that clinic, actually, since there appeared to be a certain amount of interest when I did my loading practice. It was really fascinating.

I think when aiming for competition, we often forget that a dressage test is not an aim in itself (or shouldn't be); it's more of a diagnostic to give a basis for comparison of horses at a similar point of their training. Seeing it as a series of "moves" to be learned, without a framework which relates the succession and purpose of the movements, seems to me rather like the "teaching to the test" that we complain about with schoolkids, where a set of predetermined questions can be answered, but there is little understanding of the context and deeper substance. It's something I really want to learn much more about.

Excellent post. If you could do a report on the clinic, that would be fantastic.

 

[Matafleur]

Excellent post. If you could do a report on the clinic, that would be fantastic.

Ditto this, please, please do a report on the clinic as I would be very interested in hearing about it. I'd be fascinated by a session with AK and I love the science behind clicker.

 

[DabDab]

Yes, please do a report
I would be really interested to read how clicker training has been integrated into a training system. I have seen clicker training used extremely successfully with dogs (and also extremely badly), but the clicker training with horses I have known of was several years ago, when it was something of a very niche craze. In all these cases it was not used with any end gain in mind other than training the horse to do something 'cute' (for want of a better word) - things like collecting brushes up from around the stable or shaking hands. And because it was used to train tricks in isolation and using food the horses did things randomly, when they felt like it.

I would be fascinated to read about an effective clicker training system.

 

[Iberian girl]

Oooo - been at the yard all day and so much on this thread I want to respond to now!

Dabdab - hoof in the crotch - ouch! Yep, Zorro's previous owner told me he sometimes Spanish walks when being led out of the field so to watch out for a hoof up the bum!

Cortez -he is just "being Spanish" and indeed I wouldn't have him any other way! There was a Western riding show on at our yard a couple of weekends ago which resulted in the hilarious sight (to many yard regulars) of several beautiful Appys warming up with their very long, very low head carriage and grass cutting foot action and me and Zorro - his head and knees in the air - working around them! Talk about two ends of the horsey spectrum. Seriously 'though, I am very lucky that my trainer believes we should work to his strengths and let him be what he was bred to be - so no forcing of low curved outlines for us! We'll have our heads in the air and be happy with flexion at the poll and relaxed backs - for both horse and rider!

Shortstuff99 - v. interesting your baby Spanish does the trot on the spot and pawing too. I'd be very happy if it was innate and not stress related so thanks for the reassurance.

Pigeon & Spookypony - I think you are making the same valid point which speaks to Loberia's question of can you teach a "fake" piaffe. My answer to that question is also no you can't and you shouldn't try. A correct piaffe is, as you say, a demonstration of how far the horse has come in being classically schooled and is indeed, like all dressage "moves" as Spookypony says, not an end in itself or for show. It should be that a horse has become so good at collected trot that he can collect to the point of being on the spot. His musculature and brain have all reach this point gradually and, hopefully, safely and healthily (for both body and mind). Zorro's piaffe is fake, he raises alternate pairs of legs but there's no moment of suspension because he has no forward impulsion into the movement and he's muscles haven't been trained to enable him to achieve that. To some people he looks showy and impressive but to a well trained eye you can see it's not a true piaffe. Also, a higher level dressage test - being a measure of the horse's long term training - if we attempted one right now, would show it up as he might be able to "do" the piaffe but our collected, medium and extended trot would be atrocious compared to other horses at that level.

Why try to fake a piaffe?