Piaffe - suspension or not?

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Thinking about WEG (again). In Totilas and Fuego, we see two piaffes. Both of which appear quite correct, taking the weight behind, raising the shoulder, correct sequence of steps, etc. But Totilas' piaffe appears to have suspension (so as per the trot), whereas Fuego's doesn't (as per the walk).

Theoretically, the piaffe shouldn't have suspension - but we are used to seeing piaffes with at least the appearance of it, or with definite suspension (Alf's). Fuego's to me looked "stepping". But is that because my eye has become accustomed to something that is actually technically incorrect?
 
To me, Feugo appeared to be "marching" on the spot.
I alaways thought piaffe should have a bit of bounce, but never ridden at a level where it is required and never likely to.
 
Good question, I think only exceptional horses can manage to sit and show some suspension, as I've seen some who although show suspension don't appear to sit enough and or be uphill enough, almost a passage on the spot if you know what I mean,
and others who like you say appear to be stepping, but show the ability to sit well.

Most horses seem to find either the passage or piaffe easier, ones who are equally talented in both are few and far between I think.

I had a horse who was good at passage but struggled to get the idea of the transition to piaffe and both Carl Hester and Adam Kemp me that he would almost have to passage on the spot as he failed to comprehend the difference! bless him he was irish!!

I prefer to see some suspension but not at the expense of sitting properly, and I suppose it so much depends on the horses capability.
 
Ah, very interesting. I'm glad you posted - I was pondering the difference between the Totilas/Fuego piaffes when watching their tests. I much prefer Totilas', and like to see some suspension, but I wasn't sure which was correct; interesting that it's actually Fuego's. Is that to enable a clear transition between passage and piaffe, or is there another reason? Would be interested to hear others' opinions, too...
 
I remember reading on the Internet a quote by Reiner Klimke along the lines of "passage is the epitome of collection in trot, and piaffe is the epitome of collection in walk" (therefore passage should have suspension, piaffe should not).

I *think* the reason is that, as we all know, originally piaffe was meant to be just a preparation for levade, therefore you cannot afford to 'waste' that energy in a moment of suspension...does it make sense?

Does this mean both Totilas' and Alf's piaffes are incorrect, then?

I remember years ago there was a huge discussion about the "leg piaffes" as performed by certain horses (e.g. Salinero), apparently the crowds loved it much more as it gave the impression of more strength and more 'movement'!
 
I would really like to see the movement-by-movement marks for the GPS.. For instance, Warum Nicht tended to travel backwards in some piaffes, more than any horse I have ever seen - this is supposed to be one of the most serious faults, right? I would really like to know what marks he got (esp from judges at E and B) for that.
 
There was a really good commentator (woman) on Eurosport for the dressage who pointed out a lot of things, including Warum Nicht's piaffe. She thought he was travelling backwards in most of them and said it with the sort of voice that indicates this is a serious fault.
 
The FEI guidelines for judging book requires, among other things, cadence and regularity, and elasticity and spring. A piaffe that needs more height and activity may come down to a 7 obviously depending on other factors too. This would suggest that Fuego wouldn't score as highly as Totilas or Alf. All 3 sit well but Alf and Totilas have the elasticity to spring as well.

Piaffe performed by the Spanish Riding School certainly springs from 1 diagonal to the other in the same way as Totilas and this is what the SRS trainers look for. They say that for a good piaffe you need relaxation so this is comparable to a good walk. This is the classical way that has stod the test of time.
 
Good discussion! Thanks everyone.

What I'm wondering is if the "suspension" that we think we see in Totilas or Alf (who both have classically correct piaffes to my eye anyway) is a bit of an optical illusion. Because the rhythm in their piaffe is so good, they appear to have suspension, but they actually don't. But then why does Fuego's (and Sunrise's too, for example) look like they are stepping? sorry just jotting down my thoughts.

I always teach piaffe from walk, have always been taught to do so. It is developed from diagonalising the walk. BUT - I do find that once horses have learned the passage (my horse at the moment is learning passage, but already knows piaffe), the piaffe does seem to get more active - suspension?
 
Perhaps it's a bit like the preference for "hovering" trots because they look more impressive and powerful (even though that's a very debatable point).

Hasn't someone done a stop motion study on this? Perhaps the same group that did the work on pirouettes where they proved conclusively that what "the books" say - about the canter needing to remain three beat - is not actually what happens in the pirouettes we consider correct. I'm pretty sure piaffe was also studied. (It was part of the whole debacle about judging - they were trying to quantify the mechanics behind what gets marks and whether or not it match up with what judges and trainers *thought* they were seeing.) Hilary Clayton maybe? It sounds like something she'd be interested in. I think it was at least partially USDF funded but not at all sure about that.

FB do you do on dressageunltd.com? I have no idea for the WEGs but I know the person who runs it has done "play by play" scores from competitions that have used the immediate scoring system.
 
Sunrise doesn't engage and sit as well in piaffe. Fuego has activity but lacks cadence which is also apparent in the piaffe.
A hovering trot is different (and lower mark earning) to an expressive trot. The former lacks engagement and has a stiff back whereas the latter is achieved with impulsion and suppleness so I don't believe that Alf and Totilas' piaffes are related to a hovering trot.
 
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