Picking up feet - Clicker Training?

[Dyllymoo]

My new lad doesn't seem to understand my cue for picking his feet up (running hand down leg, clicking etc.). My physio found that "pushing" his hock joint meant he lifted that leg (she was doing something else!). I googled and found that was a parelli training thing and the front leg is by squeezing the chestnut. I have done it and he sort of does it but then immediately puts his feet back down and it can be hard to encourage him to lift again.

He is only just 5 so I'm unsure if he has actually been taught the parelli way, another way (that I dont know and am therefore not asking "properly" for him) or he just doesn't understand. When his hoof is up he will happily stand with it there, and hold his own weight, its just the initial picking it up.

I thought maybe clicker training to help him. I am looking at starting this week with the basics of clicker training but wondered how would I (eventually) ask him to pick his feet up in order for the clicker to work. Does that make sense? He basically just doesn't lift his leg and you have to really kind of pull it up, so would that be the start or would I need to wait for another cue?

Are there any videos that people recommend for this in particular?

 

[MotherOfChickens]

When I got my younger lusitano over from Portugal, I couldnt lift his feet-I tried the normal ways but he'd been taught to pick up on a cue of qucikly tapping his fetlock twice. I'm sure it could be taught via clicker but am not really into it.

 

[daydreamer]

I follow a clicker lady on Facebook (a historic thing, I haven't used any of her methods) and she has been doing videos in the past couple of weeks on hoof handling and picking up the feet. I know she is really into the science on it and reads around the subject a lot so it should all be sound theory. If you search using the key terms below you should be able to find it.

Equine Clicker Training - Katie Bartlett

 

[fburton]

I have used clicker training for this, but it could also be done with well-timed rewards.

I taught a young Welsh Sec A pony stallion that the farrier insisted on being sedated for trimming because he misbehaved so badly. He hated having his feet touched, let alone held, pared and rasped.

First, I taught that the 'click' means 'Yes! Well done, reward coming" using a traffic cone as a target that most horses will spontaneously investigate, rewarding touching the cone with the nose. This took less than 5 minutes.

Then I taught him to lift his legs to a cue - putting my hand over his nose in a particular way and pointing to the foot I wanted lifted - with 3 or 4 sessions of 5-10 minutes each.

To cause the pony to lift a foot lifting initially I didn't even need to touch the foot or leg. In fact, I specifically wanted to avoid doing that. Simply moving my hand towards the leg in the act of pointing was sufficient mental pressure to cause a reaction. No physical pressure was needed or used.

Your situation is different in that you won't have fear getting in the way. So you will need to do something a bit more definite to get your lad to move a leg. Reward the slightest movement first if he doesn't do a clean lift straight away. You can shape the behaviour into the kind of lift you want - letting you hold his foot, not waving it around etc. The aim is to associate whatever cue you decide to mean "Lift, please!" with the action.

Is that enough detail?

 

[Dyllymoo]

I have used clicker training for this, but it could also be done with well-timed rewards.

I taught a young Welsh Sec A pony stallion that the farrier insisted on being sedated for trimming because he misbehaved so badly. He hated having his feet touched, let alone held, pared and rasped.

First, I taught that the 'click' means 'Yes! Well done, reward coming" using a traffic cone as a target that most horses will spontaneously investigate, rewarding touching the cone with the nose. This took less than 5 minutes.

Then I taught him to lift his legs to a cue - putting my hand over his nose in a particular way and pointing to the foot I wanted lifted - with 3 or 4 sessions of 5-10 minutes each.

To cause the pony to lift a foot lifting initially I didn't even need to touch the foot or leg. In fact, I specifically wanted to avoid doing that. Simply moving my hand towards the leg in the act of pointing was sufficient mental pressure to cause a reaction. No physical pressure was needed or used.

Your situation is different in that you won't have fear getting in the way. So you will need to do something a bit more definite to get your lad to move a leg. Reward the slightest movement first if he doesn't do a clean lift straight away. You can shape the behaviour into the kind of lift you want - letting you hold his foot, not waving it around etc. The aim is to associate whatever cue you decide to mean "Lift, please!" with the action.

Is that enough detail?

Ah that's brilliant, thank you. I cant wait to prove the people wrong that keep saying "typical cob"! Poor lad just doesn't understand what I want at the minute.

 

[canteron]

Ah that's brilliant, thank you. I cant wait to prove the people wrong that keep saying "typical cob"! Poor lad just doesn't understand what I want at the minute.

He probably finds it quite difficult to balance on 3 legs so clicker is brilliant for this - but only when mixed with patience!

 

[Dyllymoo]

He probably finds it quite difficult to balance on 3 legs so clicker is brilliant for this - but only when mixed with patience!

To be fair to him once I have his leg he is happy to stand for as long as I need and doesn't snatch or wobble, its the initial picking it up, he just doesn't seem to do it when I ask.

I'm happy to take time over it (i.e. I don't expect it to happen with one session), but I just wanted to make sure I ask him properly and he can then try and answer.

 

[canteron]

Btw I now run my hand down their leg and stop for a couple of seconds at the chestnuts before going on to pick up the hoof. Now my horses wil pick up their feet when I get to the chestnuts and hold them their till I ask them to put them down - saves a lot of backache!
I taught this with clicker.

 

[Dyllymoo]

Oh that's really interesting. Can I ask exactly how you started it. Just running your hand down and then when did you click?

We started last night. Just did 15 touches of my dustpan (!). I'm not 100% sure he got it but he really enjoyed the sweeties! Same again tonight

 

[HashRouge]

I found with young horses that gently nudging their shoulder with yours and lifting their hoof as they shift their weight is the easiest way. Not sure I'd bother with clicker training for something as simple as lifting up feet, but certainly won't do any harm.

 

[Dyllymoo]

I found with young horses that gently nudging their shoulder with yours and lifting their hoof as they shift their weight is the easiest way. Not sure I'd bother with clicker training for something as simple as lifting up feet, but certainly won't do any harm.

Unfortunately this doesn't work with him. No amount of pushing on his shoulder, trying to force his foot up works. He just gets upset, like he just doesn't understand (i.e. I think he has been trained the parelli way as mentioned above, but he still doesn't quite do it properly, so I want to start again with a way we both feel ok about).

 

[redredruby]

Clicker training is perfect for teaching to pick feet up and is how I taught two of my very nervous / unhandled youngsters.

Are you able to handle the legs etc when they stood still? And do they remain relaxed while you do this?

 

[Dyllymoo]

Clicker training is perfect for teaching to pick feet up and is how I taught two of my very nervous / unhandled youngsters.

Are you able to handle the legs etc when they stood still? And do they remain relaxed while you do this?

Yes he is absolutely fine. And once they are up he holds his own weight and doesn't snatch or anything

 

[redredruby]

That's great - so I would try using clicker to shape the desired behaviour so in this case lifting of the foot and then introducing a cue at a later stage.

 

[Dyllymoo]

That's great - so I would try using clicker to shape the desired behaviour so in this case lifting of the foot and then introducing a cue at a later stage.

So do you mean lifting his leg and praising him for it (i.e. click and then treat), similar to teaching him to target something, or am I getting it wrong?

 

[canteron]

There are many ways - the most important thing is to look for progression and gradually ask more before you treat!
So run your hand down the leg, stop at the chestnuts (or hock for hind legs), carry on pick up feet and click and treat. Do this 3 times on each leg for session 1.

next day do the same but only click if they let you pick up foot easily.
Next step, when they offer to pick up their feet slowly wait a little longer each time before clicking.
Etc etc (hopefully you get the drift of looking for progression and of course endless patience!!)

 

[redredruby]

So do you mean lifting his leg and praising him for it (i.e. click and then treat), similar to teaching him to target something, or am I getting it wrong?

Shaping is when you dont use a cue but wait for the behaviour to occur and then reward it. This way you can remove the pressure which is causing him to plant and / or get stressed.

Once they start willingly offering the behaviour you can introduce the cue.

Am happy to PM you with more details if that would help?

Are you a member of any of the clicker Facebook groups?

 

[canteron]

Not sure I'd bother with clicker training for something as simple as lifting up feet, but certainly won't do any harm.

I think clicker teaches the rider more than the horse? It teaches timing, praising the positive and chunking things down to simple steps!

 

[Hack4fun]

I have a very large Clydesdale who did not like picking her feet up. It took practice but she is much better. I started by just asking her to lift her foot up. As soon as she did I would release the pressure - me lifting her feathers. Then I extended the time and asked her to hold it up for a few second before I released it. She had to hold is calmly - not thrash around. If she thrashed around I would continue to hold it and only release when she was still. She is much improved. We still have a way to go but it is getting better all the time.

 

[fburton]

I should perhaps add that I wouldn't normally teach a horse to lift feet using clicker training. A combination of pressure/release and conventional reward almost always works just fine.

However, in the case of the pony stallion I mentioned, clicker training was really useful in dispelling fear. The fear that something bad might happen to his feet and/or to him was diminished by experiencing that good things were happening in relation to them. Clicker training effectively short-circuited this pony's bad feelings about people touching his feet and legs: he couldn't be happy and eager to do something and fearful about it at the same time. Once the pony had learned to lift feet on cue - to offer the behaviour himself - it was a straightforward matter to habituate him to having the foot held for longer and longer periods of time, manipulated, tapped, rasped and so on. The only reason he let me hold his feet in the first place was that foot-lifting had become an activity that had positive associations.

I did spend a little time with this pony seeing how far I could get with just gentle, sympathetic handling and pressure/release. The answer was not very far because he would quickly get upset as soon as any attempt was made to get close to his feet or lower legs, which clearly brought back bad memories of earlier handling.

 

[Leo Walker]

I use clicker training for all sorts, and have used it for picking feet up before. You need reasonable timing to mark the correct actions, but once horses get it they dont forget and they learn quickly. I also find that they are more confident in offering new behaviours as they arre used to working out what you want.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

OP, if he doesn't think he can balance, try standing him next to a wall, so that hey thinks he is leaning on it. We taught our current Appaloosa mare to lift her feet through clicker training. She had had a hoof abscess and it put her off having her feet handled.

 

[Dyllymoo]

OP, if he doesn't think he can balance, try standing him next to a wall, so that hey thinks he is leaning on it. We taught our current Appaloosa mare to lift her feet through clicker training. She had had a hoof abscess and it put her off having her feet handled.

Thank you but I'm not sure its that he doesn't think he can balance. I will give it a go though to see if it helps him

 

[Dyllymoo]

Shaping is when you dont use a cue but wait for the behaviour to occur and then reward it. This way you can remove the pressure which is causing him to plant and / or get stressed.

Once they start willingly offering the behaviour you can introduce the cue.

Am happy to PM you with more details if that would help?

Are you a member of any of the clicker Facebook groups?

Thank you, that would be great if you could. I'm not at the minute as I literally decided over the weekend to give it a go. I don't really want to ride him in the school much over winter as he finds it hard/ hates it, so I want to try schooling hacking him (when we get his shoes sorted so he doesn't slip all over the place - another story!), but I cant hack in the week due to the rubbish darknenss so I was thinking of fun things we can do in the school, just for 15 mins that he wont necessarily see as "work". Keep his brain going, and our relationship building.

 

[Dyllymoo]

Just as a little update......

Still not 100% sure he gets the clicker training but I am doing using an app on my phone and I just don't think its quick enough to click, so will be investing in an actual one this weekend.

Re: his feet, whilst he was munching hay in his stable (so not tied) and on an even surface he picked up 3 out of 4 legs very easily with not much persuasion (pressure and release), his left front leg took a long time and he did get himself a bit tangled with his other legs, every time he did I stopped let him sort himself out and started again. As soon as he got it I praised him and he seemed relieved (he looked a bit worried after I stood up fully).

Anyway, our yard is on a slight slope so I wonder if he is struggling to stand when asked on there, so will keep going in his stable for a bit, get him very happy and then transfer outside. Just hope the farrier is happy to do him in his stable (tied up).

 

[fburton]

Thanks for the update(s), Dyllymoo. It sounds like you are going in the right direction. Patience and persistence can get you a long way to solving problems, even without sharper 'tools' like clicker training.

 

[PapaverFollis]

The clicker is useful to mark a behaviour precisely but in my experience most horses get the picking up feet thing just from calm consistency and a reward after each foot at first, then after two feet, then after a full pick. Use the clicker if you like but don't get too hung up on it. Personally I use "gooooood" as a marker word as I just find it easier to use my voice than try to handle a clicker too.

I've used marker word training for IV injections and wound handling successfully. I tend to use pressure and release for a lot of other things but throw in a reward or two too.

I think you are right to start in the stable on level ground. My farrier has always been ok with shoeing in the stable if it's what the horse prefers so hopefully yours will be ok. Cobblers are very clever (especially when it comes to food) so I'm sure you'll have him turned into a pro picker upper in no time!