pics + a vid - CS working today:

There is a very fine line between pushing a horse & pushing a horse ive never once said CS was in pain. But mentally a horse can be struggling, to me what he displays in his moments are a way of releasing the mental pressure. It doesnt matter what your doing ridden wise the mental pressure is still there. It was probably there a long time before you bought him.

I have rehabbed a few & my own big lad is one of the worst ive ever dealt with. It took a year to get him to understand that just being ridden could be fun & gradually & slowly take him up the levels.
He always dictated the pace of how fast we went up the levels & if he was pushed before mentally ready he would display the old behaviour which is very much like what CS is showing & if i wasnt careful he would revert.
In time with very careful riding & management he turned into a horse that would have a go at things & then work at it happily. The biggest praise for me was when people would comment on how happy he looked in his work & he is he now lives for it.

All of my horses are hot horses so im well aware of tantrums but im very careful to analise that im not the cause of them, which 99.99% of the time i am.
It can be im asking something wrongly or im blocking the horse all of these things can create a horse to display unsavory behaviour. I have horses here that range from yearling to 26yo.

Im not saying CS is going to have a mental breakdown im just saying that working at such a high level for his age without doubt creates mental pressure of it's own & to be careful as to me it's showing in those pic's. The odd tantrum in a session fine but often & periods of this behaviour throughout a schooling session would make me feel that there was to much pressure on the horse.
 
I know this will make everyone roll their eyes and tell me to shut up but...

Your horse is beautiful and a credit it to you. You're a very good rider who is not only able to bring the best out in her horse but also manages to look very effortless, sophisticated and elegant in the process. Young riders come on here and look at your photos and want to be just like you (I know I would have done when I was a kid). So when they see pictures of you riding your slightly opinionated, but beautiful and well schooled, ex-racer without a hat saying that you know him inside out and that you can cope with his random outbursts and absolutely won't fall off so don't need a hat, what do you think they're going to want to go and do....????

Just a thought. I don't normally comment on yours or your sisters posts because I can't bite my tounge on the hat issue (clearly!) but I do think that people should be allowed to point out the folly of not wearing a hat so that new members can see that actually this forum in general doesn't think it's ok to risk your skull in the interests of looking good no matter how good a rider (you think) you are.

...and off I go back to NL where soapboxes are welcomed...
 
AshTay said:
. So when they see pictures of you riding your slightly opinionated, but beautiful and well schooled, ex-racer without a hat saying that you know him inside out and that you can cope with his random outbursts and absolutely won't fall off so don't need a hat, what do you think they're going to want to go and do....????
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But she is wearing a hat...........

Some people can just do nothing right can they.........................
 
Jane_Lou said:
But she is wearing a hat...........

Some people can just do nothing right can they.........................
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lol, sorry, yeah, was referring to other threads (should have made that clear). Durr!
Should really say well done for wearing a hat this time!!! (and please, please, please do it every time!!!).


ETA: ...and IMHO she's doing everything else right!!!
 
"The odd tantrum in a session fine but often & periods of this behaviour throughout a schooling session would make me feel that there was to much pressure on the horse."

he only did it twice, and then he thought about it once more, but decided against it of his own free will .................and as ive said previously, these tantrums are far less frequent and far less intense that they have been previously-do you not think that might tie in more with a submission issue that an mental pressure issue?

third time-where is he showing this tension? If you can see it in those pics can you point it out so that i can discuss what you are seeing....................clearly he isnt going to look happy when trying to ditch me and getting a pasting, but in the actual work pics, where is this mental pressure showing?
 
Good girl, you know you don't look half bad in a hat. Please remember that poor girl from Leicestershire :(

On another note what a monkey!
 
dressagecrazy said:
Im not saying CS is going to have a mental breakdown im just saying that working at such a high level for his age without doubt creates mental pressure of it's own & to be careful as to me it's showing in those pic's. The odd tantrum in a session fine but often & periods of this behaviour throughout a schooling session would make me feel that there was to much pressure on the horse.
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PS has shown moments in time with her pictures. She could have schooled him for an hour and he had a 2 minute wobbler. Alternatively, she could've schooled him for 15 minutes and he had a 5 minute wobbler. Obviously, one scenario would be infinitely worse than the other. We just don't know and therefore I don't believe any of us are in a position to question the horses ability to cope.

As a non competitive rider (now), I can tell if my horse is taking the mick, has pain issues or really can't cope with what is being asked. I'm pretty sure PS is the same.

Having been on a yard with an ex-olympian dressage rider and a GB team rider, both their horses threw plenty of wobblers. Not every day but it was quite a frequent event. In fact, I took to not riding in with the ex-olympian because her horses were so wired it rubbed off on mine, who couldn't cope just seeing it :eek:.
 
quirky said:
PS has shown moments in time with her pictures. She could have schooled him for an hour and he had a 2 minute wobbler. Alternatively, she could've schooled him for 15 minutes and he had a 5 minute wobbler. Obviously, one scenario would be infinitely worse than the other. We just don't know and therefore I don't believe any of us are in a position to question the horses ability to cope.

As a non competitive rider (now), I can tell if my horse is taking the mick, has pain issues or really can't cope with what is being asked. I'm pretty sure PS is the same.

Having been on a yard with an ex-olympian dressage rider and a GB team rider, both their horses threw plenty of wobblers. Not every day but it was quite a frequent event. In fact, I took to not riding in with the ex-olympian because her horses were so wired it rubbed off on mine, who couldn't cope just seeing it :eek:.
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So does the post above mean that i shouldnt be asking or commenting on anything PS posts because she knows better as do you? Im still learning with horses & still make mistakes so i dont believe when it comes to horses anyone can know better. I realise im commenting on photo's but thats all i have to go on.

As to PS's previous question for me submission comes from the mind.

Submission can only come from a willing horse thats confident in you & what your asking & is physically / mentally ready.
But as a rider/trainer you have to be 100% confident that your not pushing or forcing the submission otherwise you will always have the pretence for outbursts & a horse that suffers lack of confidence & mental pressure to build then if the horse is really pushed a meltdown happens they all have different mental strenths just like us.

Im not saying this is what is happening with CS but in all but the first pic i see a horse thats getting gradually more upset.

I will leave it there & leave you alone to get on with life this is only an internet forum & im only expressing my own personal opinion & experiences :)
 
dressagecrazy said:
So does the post above mean that i shouldnt be asking or commenting on anything PS posts because she knows better as do you?
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Wow, that's a pretty big leap!!

Comment all you like :).

I'm not defending PS at all. As I said, the percentage of time the horse has a wobbler should have quite a bearing on the comments.
PS hasn't said how long he schooled, how long he misbehaved etc, so I could be equally as wrong as you are right.

Does it matter?
Not one iota.

PS seems to know what she's on with and has a goal she wishes to reach. I wish her every luck with reaching that goal :)
 
diggerbez said:
DC- i didn't think your post was having a 'pop' at all- but equally PS's reply wasn't.... just out of interest- do many horses not have little 'episodes'? mine certainly does, if he's not really wanting to do something, he'll say no, stamp his feet a little bit and then say "oh ok then"... i know some horses never question anything but i honestly think that some of the quirkier/sharper ones question pretty much everything and also like to keep themselves entertained by checking that you are awake :rolleyes: Don't get me wrong- i know that bad behaviour can also be a sign that there is something wrong but sometimes it is just bad/baby pony behaviour?
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This. There is a bit of a tendency on here for people to assume that naughtiness must always be caused by pain. It is of course something you have to check and eliminate. I am not saying that one shouldnt check teeth, backs etc, as of course these should be checked regularly. But young horses (and older ones sometimes too) do usually go through phases of testing the boundaries and the like and often there isnt anything wrong, other than do I really have to today I would rather not so I'm going to buck or spook at the little shed blah blah type behaviours all of which differ from horse to horse.
 
Tr0uble said:
there may be one other person up for a lesson whilse we're at it too!
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ME!!! I'm near huntingdon well not in term time but if your down in holiday time :D I will warn you in advance we are not great at the dressage diva thing and I will make a fool of my self :rolleyes:.

Any way avioding the discussion going on currently ;) I found the pics of CS having a moment funny I like the one where all his feet apear to be on the same spot, cleaver little man :D. I think we need more video updates :D.
 
he worked for 45mins and the only tantrums he had are the 2 you see in these pics.

dressagecrazy you still havent actually pointed out where this tension/evidence of pushing is shown in the pics!!!!!!!!!!! in the shoulder in pic. the HP pic. the canter pics........where are the signs of tension?

iv already said the rein back pic isnt the nicest due to lip flipping and would say that in the change pic yes there is tension shown in the jaw and neck, i do genuinely feel that there is always a small amount of tension shown when the horse is having to work hard physically because of the muscle tension involved and whenthey are thinking hard too, there is bound to be momentary tension and here it is captured on camera, but i bet most people have moments of the same.

in the other trot/canter pics i see a horse using his body, with his ears on his rider and a relatively still mouth and soft neck/back/ i dont see any obvious signs of massive tension so would welcome your observations DC.he isnt short in the neck, mouth is softly chewing, ears are not pinned, eyes are not rolling, muscles are not bulging etc etc.
 
Gorgeous horse, lovely photos, nobody can knock what you have achieved with this horse. You must have very tough skin to put up with alot of uncalled for bitter tasting comments your threads receive. Good on you girl. Look forward to the next CS update/Area Fest report/piccies :)
 
Prince33Sp4rkle said:
he worked for 45mins and the only tantrums he had are the 2 you see in these pics.

dressagecrazy you still havent actually pointed out where this tension/evidence of pushing is shown in the pics!!!!!!!!!!! in the shoulder in pic. the HP pic. the canter pics........where are the signs of tension?

iv already said the rein back pic isnt the nicest due to lip flipping and would say that in the change pic yes there is tension shown in the jaw and neck, i do genuinely feel that there is always a small amount of tension shown when the horse is having to work hard physically because of the muscle tension involved and whenthey are thinking hard too, there is bound to be momentary tension and here it is captured on camera, but i bet most people have moments of the same.

in the other trot/canter pics i see a horse using his body, with his ears on his rider and a relatively still mouth and soft neck/back/ i dont see any obvious signs of massive tension so would welcome your observations DC.he isnt short in the neck, mouth is softly chewing, ears are not pinned, eyes are not rolling, muscles are not bulging etc etc.
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Thats because i see it creeping in from the half step pic, the first pic shown is lovely he looks soft, swingy & happy.
This changes in the half step pics when he he shows a hard eye & tension through the body the overall softness you had is lost. Funnily he then goes on to have an episode.

We all see things differently im just a tuned to watching horses in depth these are the things i see.
 
horseywelsh said:
Gorgeous horse, lovely photos, nobody can knock what you have achieved with this horse. You must have very tough skin to put up with alot of uncalled for bitter tasting comments your threads receive. Good on you girl. Look forward to the next CS update/Area Fest report/piccies :)
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Come on im being far from bitter, jesus forget it people. Obviously everyone thinks it's fine to ooo & ahhh & i can see why they are a stunning pair. I have tried to be constructive i think PS has done a grand job im just worried that it's all moving to fast. Sometimes you need someone removed to give you hints.
 
dressagecrazy said:
Thats because i see it creeping in from the half step pic, the first pic shown is lovely he looks soft, swingy & happy.
This changes in the half step pics when he he shows a hard eye & tension through the body the overall softness you had is lost. Funnily he then goes on to have an episode.

We all see things differently im just a tuned to watching horses in depth these are the things i see.
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I try and stay out of these threads, but I have to support and agree with DC on this instance (as she seems to be getting a bashing now!). These are probably the most unhappy pics I have seen of CS so far.

It depends on the horse how often they have 'tantrums'. And it also depends on if they are genuine kevin tantrums, or if they horse is genuinely trying to say something is too hard or they don't understand. Whether it is panic, or just blunt refusal to do something. Without knowing you and CS personally, or seeing it in the flesh, it's hard to know what it is.

But because you do post pics of the good and bad (which is good as there are too many people who only report the good stuff) you will get comments that he doesn't look happy.

Why he doesn't look happy only you know. But I agree he doesn't look happy in a lot of these pics.

Just my two pence worth.
 
dressagecrazy said:
Come on im being far from bitter, jesus forget it people. Obviously everyone thinks it's fine to ooo & ahhh & i can see why they are a stunning pair. I have tried to be constructive i think PS has done a grand job im just worried that it's all moving to fast. Sometimes you need someone removed to give you hints.
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FWI what I was saying was not directed at you, or anyone in particular, just a general remark having sometimes being taken aback by comments on PS threads.
 
any comments on the lateral pics or the canter? i can see he looks like he's having to work harder at the half steps than the preceeding trot (because he is, simply), but perhaps im blind, but in the canter esp to me, he looks very at ease?

im just going out to ride now, will try and upload some more pics from the same session when i come back in, if anyone is interested :)
 
For feck sakes :mad:

I'm so jealous of people (obviously like dressagecrazy) who can have the most perfect horses in the world :rolleyes:

Do you not think if CS did not want PS to ride him anymore as he was too much he would do a "Proper" display of his acrobatics until she was on the floor...at the end of the day if a horse doesn't want to do something it won't - and although PS rides him fantastically if he didn't want to do it the reality is no-one would stay on :mad:

And yes, I am having a pop. Everyone moans at PS saying "oh you don't let me have an opinion" yet EVERY SINGLE comment she makes people go out of there way to turn it into something nasty.


I'm so bl00dy peed off - makes me want to leave this forum the people who "sit on their high horses" :mad:
 
OneInAMillion said:
Do you not think if CS did not want PS to ride him anymore as he was too much he would do a "Proper" display of his acrobatics until she was on the floor...at the end of the day if a horse doesn't want to do something it won't - and although PS rides him fantastically if he didn't want to do it the reality is no-one would stay on :mad:
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No I don't. There are MANY MANY horses out there that put up with a lot of bad riding and bad management (NOT including PS here in ANY way). Horses are by nature very forgiving and will put up with a lot. Just because a horse doesn't dump the rider at every given opportunity doesn't mean he is a happy athlete.
 
Glad mine isn't the only TB who asserts himself in an episode ;D

your horse looks lovely and looks in the pics to be working well. A friend observed to me that me and my TB have a pattern; we will start off well, horse picks a fight, I win (or sit out airs and then kick on :D ) and then he settles down and carries on working.

I sometimes wonder if it is a male thing - woman in charge, male rebels in effort to assert themselves, realises woman is right and does what told.

I must say i enjoy your matchy matchy combinations too :D
 
OneInAMillion, the only one who's being nasty is yourself. I'm glad you like my perfect horses they are rather super if I say so myself. Note the sarcasm!

No horse is perfect & I'm far from perfect I was just trying to be constructive but hey never mind. I also won't be put off by posting I don't care if you don't like what I'm saying I am allowed to post my thoughts as are you.:) I am careful with what I write & try never to be nasty I'm not like that In RL I'm certainly not going to be like it on here behind a computer.
 
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Renvers said:
I sometimes wonder if it is a male thing - woman in charge, male rebels in effort to assert themselves, realises woman is right and does what told.
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Haha!!! Quite possibly completely true! I on the otherhand have a mare who is simply and opinated madam with attitude and unfortunately takes much more convincing to do as she's told!

I can totally see both sides of the argument: Mine *will* have a strop when she doesn't understand something or finds what I'm asking too difficult BUT it feels completely different to her being an opinionated little witch, the latter of which features in 99% of schooling sessions - the difference is I have now learn't how to ride her through genuine naughtiness and when to ease off/ask a different way/for less when she is genuinely finding things a bit too much. I think anyone who knows their horse well is capeable of feeling the subtle differences, even in a very forgiving horse, and I would hope has the sense to act accordingly. Likewise, as a teacher I also recognise that to make progress you have to constantly challenge/stretch what has been established already (horse or human) to move on, try something harder and progressively and sensitively ask for more. If you didn't then you wouldn't progress and of course you would expect some tension/tears/tantrums. You wouldn't believe the hysterics I had in my Y4/5 class when I introduced "chunking" (long division) last week. But you know what, we worked on it slowly, pushing those that needed pushing because they naturally backed of anything hard and/or new, challanging those that were ready for the challenge and working more slowly in smaller pieces with those for whom it was all a bit much. And the children who were'nt ready - well they did something else and will move on as and when they are. And guess what - all children achieved their intended outcomes and actually grew in confidence as a result, despite the initial wibbles and strops! It is about making educated and well informed decisions based on the individual and yes, it may not always be easy but if it was then chances are the majority wouldn't progress!

Personally I think CS looks fab - I can only dream of having such a well schooled horse who for the most part is relaxed, responsive and has such a good attitude to flatwork. Furthermore I find it very comforting to see I am not the only one to have moments of tension, acrobatics and attitude, especially with a partnership that I often admire.
 
I have to say I am confused as to why PS's threads always end up the same way, with people jumping in and on top of each other :confused:

I for one like her updates, and to see how she's bringing CS on.

Its been aaaaaages since she last posted and i dont want this or other peoples reports to stop because they fear what people may say, it would make this forum a very dull place.
 
This is what I hate about this forum and why I seldom post. Dressagecrazy has made some perfectly valid points in a non-aggressive or hostile manner and is being treated like some sort of pariah (with a few exceptions) and as usual the accusations of bitterness and jealousy creep in.
CS is a TB, he will have been backed as a TWO year old and it is not a far reach to comprehend that a horse started that young COULD possibly be suffering under the strain, mental or physical of the level of work he is doing now. Why can't the responses be limited to a fair and well-reasoned discussion of the pros and cons of PS's chosen course of training and not a bitchfest about how so and so MUST be jealous if they disagree?? It IS possible to have a different point of view and NOT be jealous for heaven's sake.
And, in conclusion, I bet that if I posted about my horse resisting and / or rearing during training I'd have an avalanche of accusations of how he must be in pain / I'm asking too much of him, etc, etc.
And NO, I'm not jealous. I'm perfectly happy with what I and my horses have achieved, and if I WERE going to be jealous of someone, it would NOT be PS.
I'm off now. You can all stew in your own little pits of venom.
 
I've got a question.......to those who enjoy the bandwagon hat argument.....do you pull people over if they don't cross the road holding their child's hand? Do you honk and flash if they aren't wearing a seatbelt? Do you warn them of the health dangers of drinking in a pub?

Or, do you see it, think as some one else said 'Well I wouldn't do that, I think it's silly' and drive on?


And as to the other- I am not in a million years going to be capable of detecting slight tension in 7/8 photos on a forum of a random horse and rider. As such, I'm going to say 'Wow', feel inspired, and go and ride my own horse, with a brighter hope that some TBs out of racing will make it.
 
llanali can i please give you an award for being sensible frank and raising a valid point that whether or not her horse is being produced to other peoples tastes at least someone has taken a chance on a thoroughbred and its not another one thats ended up on the meat waggon which i think is a far more real and appropriate issue
 
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