pics + a vid - CS working today:

This thread has just gotten ridiculous! I think everyone needs to get on with their own horses instead of sitting about biatching at someone elses. I think until you see a horse in the flesh/ride it yourself you cannot possibly comment.

Also, I was at the nationals and saw the LB demo. It was her 5 or 6 year old that she was on and she was trying to get him to do flying changes across the diagonal. He wasn't having any of it and kept putting in the most ginourmous bucks in objection, but she kept asking a and after a while he finally gave her one without a series of bucks. Que cheers from crowd. Also, in the demo she also taught the same horse to piaffe with her dad standing behind running the whip up and down his legs. As I said, this horse was 5/6 years old and quirky as hell but I didn't hear anyone in the crowd objecting. They were all smiles and admiration. However if LB had of been a poster on here posting stills of the bucks from the FC, no doubt she'd get the same response as OP in this thread
 
If it is any consolation (sp?) I am UBER jealous of you PS and all your matchy, fabulous riding and perserverance with CS - I read you threads and posts and feel utterly envious :D
 
Prince33Sp4rkle said:
thanks but you wont get an answer-iv asked numerous times for specifics about where people can see the tension and no one can give them!
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Yeah, I know, sorry. I sat on my hands for a while to avoid getting my blood pressure up, but I can't figure out why people think they can judge what's going on better than the person who rides the horse day in day out! Nor what people think you have to gain by pushing him before he's ready & risking ruining him. I'm guessing few people on here actually know CS or his character, either. The ones that do seem to be backing you up... funny, that.
 
SummerxStarsx said:
This thread has just gotten ridiculous! I think everyone needs to get on with their own horses instead of sitting about biatching at someone elses. I think until you see a horse in the flesh/ride it yourself you cannot possibly comment.

Also, I was at the nationals and saw the LB demo. It was her 5 or 6 year old that she was on and she was trying to get him to do flying changes across the diagonal. He wasn't having any of it and kept putting in the most ginourmous bucks in objection, but she kept asking a and after a while he finally gave her one without a series of bucks. Que cheers from crowd. Also, in the demo she also taught the same horse to piaffe with her dad standing behind running the whip up and down his legs. As I said, this horse was 5/6 years old and quirky as hell but I didn't hear anyone in the crowd objecting. They were all smiles and admiration. However if LB had of been a poster on here posting stills of the bucks from the FC, no doubt she'd get the same response as OP in this thread
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This^^! Forums can be great places, but they also allow the 'masses' to hide in cyber world, behind a computer screen and not actually have to stand up to a face to face debate. There are so many people who know everything on here, because they are pretty much faceless and can hide behind their computer.
 
I tend to lurk on this forum rather than post but feel I have to comment on this thread. Do you not think that when a horse moves up a level in his work that tension is going to creep in? The horse is finding the work harder and if they can they will resist the rider. To avoid any tension we would not improve the way of going as the horse would stay in their comfort zone all the time and most likely play up as they have got 'bored'

I am not sure what level the OP is competing or the scores they get but I think that consistent scores of late 60's minimum and then I would consider that the horse is ready to move up competition wise.
 
Nocturnal said:
So this was after the first strop. Looks pretty good to me? Nice and relaxed; can't see the tension, personally... eye doesn't look hard... Can someone point out what you're all talking about?
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Sorry but that is a bad photo yes its a moment in time but what looks to be a medium+ trot is broken at the poll and BTV and looks tight through the wither and neck. In a medium trot if free and forwards the horse should be slightly infront of the vertical if not on and poll high, and personally also in the pic I would say the ears were almost flat back not soft and attentive!

BUT and its a big but its a moment in time and a split second before or after could show a very different picture and so I will not judge on photos!

I sit on my hands a lot of the time in general on HHO as I know I have no where near the competitive experience or knowledge of some members (although prossibly more than a fair few as well!). Interestingly those are the posters who also almost always sit on their hands with such threads as these as they know you can't pass judgment from photos alone, and even videos can give a very distorted view.

To me CS is progressing fast i.e. at the same speed most pros would expect their very best horses to. Personally I wouldn't progress a horse of mine that fast even if talented enough as I know I don't have the ability to correctly educate a youngster to that level that quick. I can't though say that their progression is too fast for CS though as I don't know him or PS and her riding ability other than from posts on here.

Tantrums can indeed mean a horse is saying things are too much or they could just be having a juvenile temper tamtrum for the hell of it, again you need to know the horse to know which.

I think there are valid points by all BUT we don't know the horse and rider in the flesh. What will be the ultimate proof as said will be his ongoing career, if its long and successful than that is great and the best outcome, if it is not then it will be very unfortunate and PS will be able to look back at why if it occurs, lets just hope it doesn't as CS is obviously a very talented trainable horse to have learnt all he has at his age.
 
Santa_Claus said:
Sorry but that is a bad photo yes its a moment in time but what looks to be a medium+ trot is broken at the poll and BTV and looks tight through the wither and neck. In a medium trot if free and forwards the horse should be slightly infront of the vertical if not on and poll high, and personally also in the pic I would say the ears were almost flat back not soft and attentive!

BUT and its a big but its a moment in time and a split second before or after could show a very different picture and so I will not judge on photos!

I sit on my hands a lot of the time in general on HHO as I know I have no where near the competitive experience or knowledge of some members (although prossibly more than a fair few as well!). Interestingly those are the posters who also almost always sit on their hands with such threads as these as they know you can't pass judgment from photos alone, and even videos can give a very distorted view.

To me CS is progressing fast i.e. at the same speed most pros would expect their very best horses to. Personally I wouldn't progress a horse of mine that fast even if talented enough as I know I don't have the ability to correctly educate a youngster to that level that quick. I can't though say that their progression is too fast for CS though as I don't know him or PS and her riding ability other than from posts on here.

Tantrums can indeed mean a horse is saying things are too much or they could just be having a juvenile temper tamtrum for the hell of it, again you need to know the horse to know which.

I think there are valid points by all BUT we don't know the horse and rider in the flesh. What will be the ultimate proof as said will be his ongoing career, if its long and successful than that is great and the best outcome, if it is not then it will be very unfortunate and PS will be able to look back at why if it occurs, lets just hope it doesn't as CS is obviously a very talented trainable horse to have learnt all he has at his age.
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This is probably the most well balanced post on here :)

I have been sitting on my hands, I can see both sides of the debate tbh.

Yes, the horse does look tense at times (he also looks a little hollow in the last canter pic posted) but would reiterate that unless we know the horse we cannot know whether the tension is due to pain/confusion or just a bossy temper tantrum.

The horse is undoubtably talented and although I don't push my youngsters so far so soon, but rather wait until they are in the high 60s before moving up a level, it is up to PS what she does with this horse's training, she knows him better than any of us do and as someone else has already said, the scores will tell.
 
Santa_Claus said:
Sorry but that is a bad photo yes its a moment in time but what looks to be a medium+ trot is broken at the poll and BTV and looks tight through the wither and neck. In a medium trot if free and forwards the horse should be slightly infront of the vertical if not on and poll high, and personally also in the pic I would say the ears were almost flat back not soft and attentive!
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Amazing how different people see different things :). To me the horse, whilst slightly btv, does not look tense through his neck or wither, and the ears imho are not flat back but focused on the rider.

Just goes to show that judgements shouldn't be made based solely on pictures posted online, as they can be interpreted in many different ways ;).
 
santa claus-i absolutely 100% disagree im afraid.

The horse is barely BARELY dropping the poll, yes ideally he needs to be more IFV but i dont think a degree or two makes the diff between happy/unhappy and me being the devils child or not.
obviously the fact that he's sitting, pushing off from behind, using all his joints and is clearly not heavy in the hand mean absolutely nothing do they? i dont think i ever said he/we were perfect but im getting a bit sick and tired of every tiny imperfection being pulled up as evidence of an unhappy horse, when in fact we are both still a work in progress, as is every other poster on this forum!

its ironic that both me and my sister have been pulled over the coals for nit picking in the past yet some of the posters on here must have had a microscope out looking at these pics of mine. it cant be one rule for one and one for another so make up your minds which it is you want.

as for the ears-anyone can see they are not flat back, really actually look, they just arent!!!!!!!

TBH i think people ARE now looking for problems, and if you squint at any pic for long enough you can see things you dont like.

CC is fine, but theres nothing constructive about a witch hunt when the horse is about as much on the verge of a breakdown, as a beach donkey! and i can well see that in the future, unless he gets 65%+ EVERY time out, its going to be taken as a sign of said breakdown occurring, and I CBA with this every time i do a report.
 
I've been watching this thread and thought I may as well throw my opinion in to the pot!

I can see both sides in this argument, I think that he is clearly a talented horse and ps is clearly a talented rider. The horse looks in perfect condition and is obviously in a lot better shape than about 80% of horses.
I think tension is hard to see unless you are watching a video or the horse in person.
BUT on the flip side, I DO think it's possible for tantrums to decrease in severity without the cause or root being solved, I think a strong, capable rider is able to teach a horse to not display bad behaviour even if the horse is trying to tell them something. I think at some point down the line it will resurface in another way but I do think it's possible. I was at a local show the other day and watched a girl trying to jump her horse which kept stopping. The horse was clearly lame behind, she then asked a man to get on, he had a "discussion" with the horse in the collecting ring then went in and jumped a clear round. I'm not for a second saying cs is lame but just trying to demonstrate a point.

I can see the need for people on forums to not get too hung up on what others choose to do with their horses but at the same time I can see that sometimes a total outsiders comments can help the most. I suppose the important thing is if they don't seem to want the comments everyone shouldn't keep ramming them home. I do think the jealousy comments are unhelpful though. I didn't post because I didn't want people telling me I was jealous. I'm not at all (although I love looking at her pictures)! But I have got an incredibly talented show jumper that was bought cheap as she had been pushed quickly. She went along with it then exploded, this resulted in us having to turn her away and totally re break her and she probably will still never be the horse she could have been. I'm not comparing mine to cs but just saying everyone is different, mine was very hot and spooky and tense so we went back to basics, I know someone else that bought her could well be jumping fox now.
I can't comment on the dressage as I simply do not know enough and am undecided about the strops as on one hand he is a young, fit tb but on the other hand mine was a young, fit wb and she did benefit from being taken down to basics.
So basically a pointless post! but I would hate ps to stop posting pics as it's my dressage fix lol
 
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Baydale said:
One very quick question, and absolutely meant to be non-provocative, PS:

why do you post on here? :confused:
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Strange 'provocative' question to again cause and stir up misfeelings? :confused:

Why does anyone post? Why do you post? Why do I post?

In my case I like to post on what my boy has been doing, how well or not so well he's been doing. The same as I'm sure 'everyone' else posts? :confused:

You have to admit that there are 'certain' people on this forum that do make a bee-line for 'certain people's post's' and like to make misguided comments that will no doubt offend
 
Oh PS I love how your posts end up like this, they are SO entertaining! :p

I just wanted to say that if you all think PS if pushing CS too much, I would love you all to have a debate with the pros! My friend who has my 4yo on loan took her for a lesson with Charlie Hutton the other day and he said he does a few steps of everything when they're 4.....piaffe, passage, half pass........just so it's there for the future (and only if they are capable that is!).

Anyway what PS does with her horse is her business ;) each to their own I say.
 
I feel sad because I wouldn't be surprised if PS doesn't post pics on on here anymore.
I for one enjoy looking at the pictures of a beautiful horse, pretty colours and an elegant rider.
I don't see any more than that because IT'S A PICTURE how are any of us to know anymore????
I really enjoy PS's posts, I always find her comments relevant and I also enjoy looking at her sisters threads as well.
This is what happened to Mad Hector and the girl with the event horse called supplejack.
They post DECENT reports and posts with pretty pictures and beautiful horses and they get frightened off. Why can't people just be nice???
I'm really worried this forum is just going to turn into a virtual bitchy livery yard where everyone is too free with their opinions and all the nice people who post things that are interesting don't come anymore.
I mean for goodness sake, anyone who spends time on this godforsaken forum is crazy enough about horses to not let their horse suffer.
Oh please keep posting PS!! You can PM me your pictures and CS updates if you like because I for one get pleasure from them :).
 
But why post pics And video if you Don't want the comments. If You put them up Then people Will comment And you Might not always like the comments.
 
firewell said:
I feel sad because I wouldn't be surprised if PS doesn't post pics on on here anymore.
I for one enjoy looking at the pictures of a beautiful horse, pretty colours and an elegant rider.
I don't see any more than that because IT'S A PICTURE how are any of us to know anymore????
I really enjoy PS's posts, I always find her comments relevant and I also enjoy looking at her sisters threads as well.
This is what happened to Mad Hector and the girl with the event horse called supplejack.
They post DECENT reports and posts with pretty pictures and beautiful horses and they get frightened off. Why can't people just be nice???
I'm really worried this forum is just going to turn into a virtual bitchy livery yard where everyone is too free with their opinions and all the nice people who post things that are interesting don't come anymore.
I mean for goodness sake, anyone who spends time on this godforsaken forum is crazy enough about horses to not let their horse suffer.
Oh please keep posting PS!! You can PM me your pictures and CS updates if you like because I for one get pleasure from them :).
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Totally agree. I really love seeing your reports PS. You (and your sister too) have also been incredibly helpful and giving with your time when I have asked questions when needing help with my TB's flatwork and trying to work out the complicated rules of BD!
 
Scarlett said:
santa_Claus - perfectly put, echos the opinion of myself and a few others who are all sitting on our hands.
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I really wish i had stayed sat on my hands too.

This was never meant to turn in to a witch hunt for either party. But i feel i really fuelled people up to start & for that im angry i commented.

However i do still stand by my view's in training horses & young horses. In future though i wont post them on someones thread though.
 
And That's why I don't any more! If You do you risk hearing What you Don't like or agree with so I decided a long time a go that approval from strangers Are not high on my priority list!
 
charlie76 said:
But why post pics And video if you Don't want the comments. If You put them up Then people Will comment And you Might not always like the comments.
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I don't think that's fair, when NM CCed on Thistle's thread a while back everyone had a go at NM cos Thistle 'didn't ask for CC'. Same thing but everyone was on Thistle's side! It seems like some posters aren't allowed to be criticised because everyone licks their a*se! But it's alright to jump on everyone else like PS because other posters think they know the horse better than the person who actually owns it!
It seems like neither of these girls can do anything right! If you don't want to start a debate and 'get jumped on' then don't comment, end of. I think you've handled yourself very well PS, please keep posting as I for one love seeing photos of CS :)

Thread for reference: http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=449101
 
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Prince33Sp4rkle said:
santa claus-i absolutely 100% disagree im afraid.

The horse is barely BARELY dropping the poll, yes ideally he needs to be more IFV but i dont think a degree or two makes the diff between happy/unhappy and me being the devils child or not.
obviously the fact that he's sitting, pushing off from behind, using all his joints and is clearly not heavy in the hand mean absolutely nothing do they? i dont think i ever said he/we were perfect but im getting a bit sick and tired of every tiny imperfection being pulled up as evidence of an unhappy horse, when in fact we are both still a work in progress, as is every other poster on this forum!

its ironic that both me and my sister have been pulled over the coals for nit picking in the past yet some of the posters on here must have had a microscope out looking at these pics of mine. it cant be one rule for one and one for another so make up your minds which it is you want.

as for the ears-anyone can see they are not flat back, really actually look, they just arent!!!!!!!
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Hence why my second paragraph very clearly says I won't judge a horse/rider on photos for the very point that they are a split second. If you want to be pedantic I don't have a portactor to hand but he is easily 15 ish degrees + BTV in the photo but that could have been for 0.01 of a second and so I won't say he is always there in the same way I won't say he always works not poll high and that his ears are always there and that the ears in that position for him are a negative because I DON'T KNOW and I won't judge.

You ASKED for the points of tension to be pointed out earlier in this thread. One person said this photo to them showed a supple forward horse and to me it didn't so I said so and most importantly why I thought as such so answering your question directly. Again I am not judging you or CS as a whole just commenting on the one photo which shows a split second ;)

And I will agree he is showing a good hind leg in the photo and its positively refreshing to see a double bridle being used correctly in that the curb is not in use unecessarily. But and this is generally speaking of course a good hind leg does not always mean a good front in the same way (although far more common example) that a good front does not equal a good hind action!
 
I'm not just talking about this thread, any post That contains photos or videos risk attracting comments that might not be well received
Its an inherent risk every time I'm afraid.
 
Please keep at it, I love seeing any schooling pictures, of course they are not perfect, but neither is ANY test ridden even at the highest level, yes we see tension, yes sometimes he could be ............. but these are seconds in time in a schooling session, and picking holes in a moment caught on film is not really constructive.
When we school we ask questions and give rewards, new schooling movements are always tenser and this we can see in any horse, manifested in many ways, as these movements are learn't and become easier the horse will perform them with more confidence and relaxation and expression.
So, personally, keep going and enjoy your schooling and journey, and keep posting.
 
charlie76-which was the exact point that i, several others, and NMT made on the thistle thread...............so like i said, one rule for one, and one for another it would seem..............

iv already said that genuine CC is fine, but all this has turned in to is countless people saying he's over pushed and tense without acknowleding any of my replies or in fact replying to any of my questions.

santa clause granted has actually given a detailed analysis of what she sees physically in the pics(thanks, albeit i still think the ear remark is ridiculous), but no one else can or will. (and perhaps i HAVE jumped on you with too much force SC, it would have been nice if the btv comments had been tempered with the positive comments about the hind leg initially, as im sure you can see that this feels like one after another bitchy comment to me)

no one has addressed the similar issue laura B has with her 6yo yet.

DC-iv said repeatedly that i dont have an issue with your posts, i think we maybe misunderstood the tone of each others posts, but thats it. its what has come after your comments that i dont think is fair.

baydale-because i like looking at other peoples pics/reading reports, and i know people like mine, so mutual pic posting seems to be order of the day! im not seeking approval or hero worship if thats what you're thinking. Im justifiably proud of the horse but thats about it. I think that promoting ex racers as serious competition horses can only be a good thing too.
 
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