pics + a vid - CS working today:

Hmmmmm... I've watched this thread grow and grow. I rarely post in here and have definitely found since the 'Diva' post (who BTW is one my horses so not a dig!) that I am no longer 'in' with the crowd anymore.
However, and this is just my opinion... My suggestion is to watch Klaus Balkenhol from foal to Grand Prix horse.
He talks about the importance of strength and development, he believes that it takes 2 years just to build the blocks from which more advanced work can then be developed. He also discusses the curb and it's introduction.
There is also an interesting focus on a young horse which displays 'similar' traits to CS's moments.
It is one of the most informative DVDS we have watched and Mr Worried has ridden for Klaus several times, so I feel I can justify this recommendation.
Good luck with him, if he is as good as you think, I look forward to seeing you at PL shows and (fingers crossed for Blitz) on the Small Tour.
 
Prince33Sp4rkle said:
lazy horses that get away with a trick a few times, learn to keep trying the same thing to get the same result (no rider, thus no work). ......

CS learnt this as a 2yo, he carried it on as a 3yo, he did it a lot with me as a 4yo, and each year since its got better.................is there no chance in your mind at all that this is not a tension/pushing issue? does the evidence not support the horse just trying it on out of habit.
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I read a beautiful analogy yesterday - which gave me a huge sense of enlightenment in the training of horses:

I've quoted from the post it came from - removing the name of the trainer although I'm sure they wouldn't mind.....

'Imagine you are being thrown balls - you would go to catch with your dominant hand/arm, strap that dominant arm behind your back and increase the rate and speed of the balls - you would soon get pissed off, dive for cover or evacuate.' It made so much sense to me and to him it seemed, as he was catching every single ball and if he dropped one, no matter, xxxx threw the next one slightly slower.

Something for us all to consider when training I think.
 
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Wow, what a mess of a post! I'm not a fan of slanging but healthy debate is good, especially in a subjective sport like dressage. I don't want to weigh in on a personal level but my broad observations are as follows:

Learning and performing movements is secondary always to the development of the basic paces, the quality of collection, and the shift of the balance towards the hind quarters. To me, this lovely horse has a super brain and a lot of athleticism, but his body and musculature are normal; he's a six year old horse. Which means that it is possible that his education exceeds his physical development. That's fine and often happens in training, but that gap should not be allowed to get too wide. I recall, for example, that Harry Boldt does not even start canter half passes until much later in a horses training because of the difficulty in sustaining the quality of collection until the horse is strong enough and confirmed in advanced work.
With such a talented animal, it should be simple enough to teach test movements once the absolute correctness of the basic paces, the power, forward ness and suppleness have been confirmed. I'm sure PS knows this of course! But this post has gone beyond her, and in general that's what I think about the topic.
 
hayleyshep88 said:
Why?? I think this thread started off with good intentions, no one was being rude, and it has started to become quite personal, there is no need to start making personal remarks. I wouldn't be surprised if PS never wants to post on here again, whether or not she is in the right or wrong.
Is does feel like it has turned into a bit of a witch hunt, everyone pick on PS because she MAYBE she got a little prickly and defensive. We all like to think we are open to CC, but I think many of us would get a little defensive in response to the pulling apart she has had as a rider, ON A PUBLIC FORUM! :D
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Ha Ha. please read PSs quote in my post as It does not show a lot of maturity(last few posts are mainly rubbish)
No witch hunt as I have never posted on any of her post before just the way I see it ,all this biting back is not doing her any favours in that department im afraid.Some people look at it through rose tinted glasses others tell it as it is and I know which I prefer.
If you cannot handle critique dont put yourself in the position were you might get it.There are lots of things that could be raised from the Photos but whats the point .I can only think some of you are looking at different photos.
 
what i meant was-its rubbish to say i dont ever take on board what is said/try thingss or change things off the back of CC...............because i do.

In this particular case i dont agree the horse is being pushed and i dont agree the *moments* are due to anything other than remembered bad habits.

No one is even acknowledging the opinion of the people who HAVE seen the horse in the flesh, both recently and as a 4/5yo, people are ignoring how much his attitude in the warm up has improved this year, its like they HAVE to stick by what they originally said, and cannot possibly accept that they might not have been 100% correct.

indeed there are plenty of other things to discuss from the pics, but like dogs with bones people will NOT let this one point go, despite being told repeatedly by the people closest to the horse that they have the wrong end of the stick.
 
Out of interest PS, what does the horse do for 'fun' and 'down' time - I guess I'm alluding to RR's post ref galloping etc...
 
he's out, in the field, 7am-3pm every day all year round with company.

he does pole work (sometimes in shapes, sometimes raised etc) once a week.

if the ground is ok he also does canter work in a light seat in the field once a week, if the ground isnt good he does it in the school, but he's allowed to ping round without being asked to *work* if that makes sense, at a good forward canter.

he doesnt hack safely, or jump with any enthusiasm and i dont lunge as i think its dull for both of us.

i would also like to point out that not every session is hard work, sometimes we just stretch, run through a few transitions, have a bomb round in a light seat, and go in.

he's also doing a variety of different movements in each session, its not like he's just grinding round in circles.

i dont think he gets any less variety in his work than any other horse.
 
Prince33Sp4rkle said:
he's out, in the field, 7am-3pm every day all year round with company.

I dont think he gets any less variety in his work than any other horse.
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Thanks PS. I'm always curious about these things - as I think it's so important that horses get ridden work that's not always about 'work' as it were.

Really great to hear that he has a good amount of turnout with company - as so many seem not too.
 
Prince33Sp4rkle said:
indeed there are plenty of other things to discuss from the pics, but like dogs with bones people will NOT let this one point go, despite being told repeatedly by the people closest to the horse that they have the wrong end of the stick.
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I am afraid this has got a bit silly .I was merely pointing out that the people making these comments are experienced and just trying to stop you making the same mistake that we all have, it is very easy to overcook a young horse that is willing to learn ,and the symptoms are very easy to put down to just being naughty at first however once it crosses the line and you have gone to far its to late and in the end you will have a happier and more level headed horse by taking a little longer.It depends what you want,if you want quick results carry on but be aware you could burn him out .If you want a horse that will last a lifetime for you to enjoy take the pressure off a little.
The one bit of advice I tell everybody is the good young horses are the easiest to F... up.
I dont think thats to contoversial.
 
Whatever the facts about the training of young horses and the training of this young horse in particular, some posts on this thread are aggresively personal and bordering on being offensive. At the end of the day this is PS's horse, she is doing those of us who enjoy her photos a favour by posting them on here, and this post has gone way past Constructive Criticism.
 
popdosh, I agree re the young horse statement, I too have a horse that was over cooked as a young horse, he was talented so they over pushed him. He is 100% better but never lets go totally.

I think there is a massive difference between professional riders ( I am talking Carl Hester and the likes!) producing young horses and us mere mortals. I think that a proffesional rider is more inclined to know when to take the pressure off where as a amatuer may be less likely to back off when the signals show, A) because they aren't always aware of the signals and B) when it is your only horse you may feel under more pressure to push it, whereas the top riders have others they can compete if they need to taking the pressure off the horses that are less able to cope with the level of work.

Can I just add, and I put this on the other post, until PS got upset about the comments there was no personal attack on anyone, no one said the horse was useless and no one said that PS was a rbbish rider. All that happened was people posted their opinions on what they took away from looking at the vids and photos. No one was rude about the horse or rider, just stated the facts from the evidence in front of them! If the comments were rude I could see offense being taken, but they weren't. As is life, you take the bits away that you feel appropriate and ignore the rest.
 
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i think this is a great thread - not the personal insults etc and i'm not going to pass judgment as i am nowhere near qualified to do so publicly.

However, it's certainly made me think about how subtley a horse can tell you that what you're asking is too much of them. I am equally as concerned about pushing my girlie too hard too soon - but then i don't have the competitive desire as PS does.

It's a really interesting subject imo - i see competition horses at the highest level looking completely tense (with a hard eye) and unhappy in their work with the tightest nosebands on, double bridles and foam pouring out of their mouths - I don't think they look happy and relaxed in their work.

Maybe this thread isn't at all about PS and CS - maybe it is about competition dressage and the lengths and shortcuts riders take to get to the top and how the industry sets examples that aren't in the best interest of the horse - after all, PS is only doing what the top trainers do...isn't she?
 
quirky said:
:eek: Really PS you do yourself no favours.
This has ended up being extremely juvenile.

I have come to the conclusion that if you didn't bite back at every comment made to you, your posts wouldn't end up in such an embarrassing bun fight.

I did initially feel a little sympathy towards you, now I don't ;).
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Couldn't agree more.
 
But it is just one rule for one and one for another isnt it, i dont know how someone who's horse is rearing and slamming on the anchors at every suggestion of taking a contact, can sit there and condemn me for having a horse thats done it twice in 45mins one day and not at all the next!

its called defending myself aginst an absolute onslaught of crit, when some of those people have absolutely NO right to sit and preach.
 
Goodness me- grow up! Yes, he was like that, turned out that the saddle was no longer fitting. I had the saddle fitter out, he is now in an Albion and it stopped it.
It also turned out when the dentist returned that the dentist had burnt his tongue with the electric rasp causing him to be tense and upset- UNDERSTANABLY! If you you bothered to look through all of my posts you would have seen this too!
The moment I though that my horse was having an issue I then looked into the cause. Not simply decide that he is a git and therefore I should just insist he worked through it!
Since changing the saddle the horse has been perfect!
He is also happily jumping 1.10 courses, hacks without getting stressed, can canter out hacking safely and has been ridden last week by an excellant rider who said he was fabulous with GP potential.

For photographic evidence:
meekaww.jpg


IMG_6631.jpg

Excuse the position!
IMG_6469.jpg

As you can see- a picture of tension!
Oh and this is how he used to go ...as you can see, I ruined him!
001.jpg


If any of my horses start jacking it I stop and find out why!
I also think there is an element of you posting pics on here of your horse being naughty in order for us to be in awe of how good you are riding 'tricky' horses! I'm sorry, but it simply doesn't impress me. I have sat on my fair share of trouble when I was younger, I am now more inclined to take a step back and find out why they are behaving in that way.
 
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Prince33Sp4rkle said:
But it is just one rule for one and one for another isnt it, i dont know how someone who's horse is rearing and slamming on the anchors at every suggestion of taking a contact, can sit there and condemn me for having a horse thats done it twice in 45mins one day and not at all the next!

its called defending myself aginst an absolute onslaught of crit, when some of those people have absolutely NO right to sit and preach.
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Yes. But we dont all choose to plaster it across the internet in photos, every chance we get.
 
quirky said:
:eek: Really PS you do yourself no favours.
This has ended up being extremely juvenile.

I have come to the conclusion that if you didn't bite back at every comment made to you, your posts wouldn't end up in such an embarrassing bun fight.

I did initially feel a little sympathy towards you, now I don't ;).
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Absolutely agree. Yesterday I felt sorry for PS and posted - not agreeing with either side but just stating that CS is PS's horse to do with as she see's fit.
Her reply is out of order.
PS - Yes, you can ride - better than I can I will freely admit. Yes, CS is gorgeous and you have done a great job so far and he's obviously a very clever boy who needs a job to do. BUT there are clearly far more experienced riders on here just asking you to stop & think about it just for a second - they are not suggesting you don't know your own horse merely suggesting that maybe, just maybe, you might be pushing too hard too soon.
 
i actually agree that overall your horse does look very relaxed, but could it not be said that the dropped poll, BTV and curled lips are exactly the same as CS? But i somehow doubt you are going to get ripped apart for showing it...............

iv already said why i post pics-go back and have a look.

TBH, to me, the best indication of being a good rider is having a horse that is other people can get on and enjoy/get a tune out of. Id be worried if something wasnt improving at all and only i could *dare* to ride it....................in the last month, an elem/med rider, a PSG rider and a 15yo have all ridden him and got a lovely tune, playing with all the lateral work and single changes. thats what floats my boat-a horse that can be enjoyed by anyone that gets on board, NOT something that makes people ***** themselves!

the *naughty* pics makes me laugh, they are posted for amusement value alone, as i said about 50 pages ago-shame on me for showing it how it really is sometimes.
 
charlie76 said:
Goodness me- grow up! Yes, he was like that, turned out that the saddle was no longer fitting. I had the saddle fitter out, he is now in an Albion and it stopped it.
It also turned out when the dentist returned that the dentist had burnt his tongue with the electric rasp causing him to be tense and upset- UNDERSTANABLY! If you you bothered to look through all of my posts you would have seen this too!
The moment I though that my horse was having an issue I then looked into the cause. Not simply decide that he is a git and therefore I should just insist he worked through it!
Since changing the saddle the horse has been perfect!
He is also happily jumping 1.10 courses, hacks without getting stressed, can canter out hacking safely and has been ridden last week by an excellant rider who said he was fabulous with GP potential.

For photographic evidence:
meekaww.jpg


IMG_6631.jpg

Excuse the position!
IMG_6469.jpg

As you can see- a picture of tension!
Oh and this is how he used to go ...as you can see, I ruined him!
001.jpg


If any of my horses start jacking it I stop and find out why!
I also think there is an element of you posting pics on here of your horse being naughty in order for us to be in awe of how good you are riding 'tricky' horses! I'm sorry, but it simply doesn't impress me. I have sat on my fair share of trouble when I was younger, I am now more inclined to take a step back and find out why they are behaving in that way.
Click to expand...

Wow, just wow!
 
Prince33Sp4rkle said:
TBH, to me, the best indication of being a good rider is having a horse that is other people can get on and enjoy/get a tune out of
Click to expand...

I'm better than I think I am then! My boy is an absolute pleasure to ride!!!! :D;)
Thought he's no where near as talented as CS or Charlie76's horse!
 
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