pics + a vid - CS working today:

(matchy matchy) saddlecloths at dawn maybe?!

Sarah1-i think that does mean a hell of a lot, he wasnt born a pleasure to ride, you made him like that. to me the best compliment is "ohmygod, he's so easy"
 
Prince33Sp4rkle said:
(matchy matchy) saddlecloths at dawn maybe?!

Sarah1-i think that does mean a hell of a lot, he wasnt born a pleasure to ride, you made him like that. to me the best compliment is "ohmygod, he's so easy"
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Bugger! There was me being pleased with "She's nothing like as easy as you make her look". Back to the drawing board methinks.
 
Prince33Sp4rkle said:
i actually agree that overall your horse does look very relaxed, but could it not be said that the dropped poll, BTV and curled lips are exactly the same as CS? But i somehow doubt you are going to get ripped apart for showing it...............

iv already said why i post pics-go back and have a look.
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Its difficult to look at one's own horse objectively,which perhaps is why observers may see what you don't.
The softness and fluidity of Charlie76's photo's are in complete contrast to the tense pictures of CS.
 
Prince33Sp4rkle said:
(matchy matchy) saddlecloths at dawn maybe?!

Sarah1-i think that does mean a hell of a lot, he wasnt born a pleasure to ride, you made him like that. to me the best compliment is "ohmygod, he's so easy"
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:D:D:D
To be fair I don't have the know how to put him under any pressure though so life is a doddle for him!!!!!! I ask him to behave for an hour a day (maximum - 6 days a week in summer and 2 in winter!) the rest of the time is his own to do with as he will! He has the life of riley...:o
 
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I havent read all of the posts as quite frankly it was driving me crazy, but I fully agree with dressage crazy, the horse is tense in most of the pics and looks a little unhappy and I agree the naughtiness seems to be a release from the pressure. However I think that PS is a very nice rider with a super horse! I hope all the best for them and look forward to more posts as I do enjoy thm. I also think people should listen to each other and not take offence so easily. Neither PS nor DC are being malicious, and DC is most certainly not 'on her high horse!'

Criticism comes in many forms and it isnt always to offend or pull down. If we all stopped being so ignorant we could learn a lot more from others. I know I have.
 
Just have to add another oh wow! to charlie76 photos, shows you how with proper schooling, equipment and off course talent how harmoneous the picture becomes.
 
I feel somewhat confused by all of this having, in the past, been very pro PS and her elegant riding and light hearted posts but I cannot help but feel a little sad for her. I too would get defensive, I love my horse more than anything as I am sure PS does with CS and would defend him 100%. Mine out of his choice would always looks BTV, never really has pricked ears or a relaxed jaw unless I ask for those things - he too was a little over cooked as a young horse I believe and has learnt to carry himself in that way. I dont think the horse in question is being mistreated in any way shape or form, has a loving home and is spoilt rotten, so what on earth is the problem - If he does breakdown (not that I am willing or condoning it) - so what, he will have a lovely retirement home with PS for the rest of his days I am sure. If you think you could do a better job - Offer her the cash for him. I am positive that all of you are guilty of something that is not perfect, no one is perfect not even all of you 'experienced' posters - I know a lot of you are offering advice, but advice is hard to take when you are so passionately focussed - accept that PS is one of the better young riders on this forum and take her for what she is - Bloody passionate.
 
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Thank you. You will know from my previous posts he I'd in no way perfect. When I started teaching him half pass he got very upset and Would stop or threaten to rear. Myself and my trainer analysised why and we discovered I didn't have him round my inside leg enough so we backed off it and Have spent time on the basic suppleness
I have Just started to reintroduce it in walk and he is far more accepting. I do not want a tense rearing horse, I want a happy relaxed one. If he isn't happy in the more advanced work I will Find another job For him, I will not force it to prove a point
 
He isn't curling his lips, in one he hs his mouth a little open and in the other its foam. He is in the last one but thats the yack picture from before.
He is a bit BTV but only when I work him in to get him softer over his back. He works like this in the test:
meekadressage002.jpg


024.jpg


054-1.jpg


I try to work him in various frames to avoid any tension, it seems to work.
He was ridden from 3 yrs old in draw reins so it has taken a long while to re develop the muscles.
 
actually no, in the first set of pics he doesnt to me look to be in to a contact, he looks to be curling back slightly from it, but in this last lot he looks a LOT better and whilst im not sure about the angle of the curb, in the double bridle pic he gives a lovely impression of taking the contact forward and being nicely uphill and off the ground.

in the last canter pic he looks a bit tighter in the neck to me.

(and id like to clarify that ive only passed comment because Brighteyes directly asked for my opinion of the first pics)

interestingly, iv been talking to a few people who know a lot more than me about TB bloodlines, and someone said that both Daylami (sire) and Alzao (damsire) are known to be quirky................so perhaps some of CS's character is genetic? Im not at all saying that nature over rides nurture 100% but we all know bloodlines play a part. I genuinely didnt realise Alzao was known to be sharp/quirky (i only knew he was pretty lol!), so it puts another spin on it.or it does for me anyway.
 
PS- I'm convinced that temperament is semi-genetic. Most Alflora horses I know/ know of are very pretty with a lot to offer, but also seriously 'worried' horses. Reg fits this to the letter! He's looked after very carefully to minimise this, but it's still there.
 
Sportznight said:
OMG!! More WOW! HHO is better than daytime TV - Jerry Springer eat your heart out. Handbags at dawn anyone?
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I'M VERY GLAD ITS HALF TERM! not getting any of my half term jobs done though :rolleyes: i reckon it would be glittery whips and spurs at dawn surely??

Charlie...your horse is lovely :) to my (untrained) eye he looks the best/most relaxed in the comp one thats in a frame :)
 
PS - as CS is 'apparently' over worked, undernourished and stressed beyond belief I think he need a holiday in Aus ;) And helpfully I know of a nice place.... :p

He looks very nice in the pics and it was lovely to finally see a video of him in action (maybe I've missed earlier ones) as pictures are lovely but can't beat seeing him 'in action' - if that makes sense...

I haven't had time to read the last few pages, but please don't let this put you off posting I love reading your updates, hearing how your comps have gone and admiring you colour schemes!
I'm now the proud owner of a set of blue bandages that match my saddle pad ;) now I just need a sound horse to model them.... :cool:
 
I bring on quite a few young horses and some of them are more difficult that others... This horse because of his racing background has clearly learnt some "tricks" as his rider says. They do learn how to unship jockeys, and not suprisingly they think "haha" when someone else gets on them and try the same thing again. Well done her for sticking with him and trying to iron out his kinks, most people would have labelled him a "problem" horse and passed him on, where goodness knows what would have befallen him...

As for pushing him too fast, he'd get very bored going on a 20m circle all of the time, keeping him doing different things will keep him interested in his work in all likelihood. A 6 year old ex racer is NOT the same kettle of fish as a 6 year old warmblood with no "baggage", so he's not going to look forward, soft and happy 100% of the time!
 
charlie76 said:
He isn't curling his lips, in one he hs his mouth a little open and in the other its foam. He is in the last one but thats the yack picture from before.
He is a bit BTV but only when I work him in to get him softer over his back. He works like this in the test:
meekadressage002.jpg


024.jpg


054-1.jpg


I try to work him in various frames to avoid any tension, it seems to work.
He was ridden from 3 yrs old in draw reins so it has taken a long while to re develop the muscles.
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Super pictures of a happy athlete :D
 
Prince33Sp4rkle said:
interestingly, iv been talking to a few people who know a lot more than me about TB bloodlines, and someone said that both Daylami (sire) and Alzao (damsire) are known to be quirky................so perhaps some of CS's character is genetic? Im not at all saying that nature over rides nurture 100% but we all know bloodlines play a part. I genuinely didnt realise Alzao was known to be sharp/quirky (i only knew he was pretty lol!), so it puts another spin on it.or it does for me anyway.
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When I took my boy to the vets the other day, the vet asked his breeding. When I told her his sire was Just Zulu (TB), her reply was

''Oh, I bet he's a quirky boy to ride then'' i just smiled and said ''oh yes, he can be''!!!
I definitely agree that they do inherit some of their characters from their bloodlines.

I just wanted to say PS that I hope you haven't taken things to heart/personally that have been said on here? I think sometimes things said here hurt people's feelings more than they think?
After all, most of us on the forum are 'words on a thread' but the one's that do know both you and CS (even if it's only for a short time and occasionally), understand how he really looks and goes for you :D
I remember seeing you (although didn't know you at the time) and him about 2yrs ago and he came out of your lorry looking for the race track. He walked on his back legs all the way to the warm up arena. You sat very quietly and worked him in. I saw a very relaxed horse after about 20 min.
You then went into your test where I think he waved at the judge as you came down the centre line. You sat quietly and he relaxed although in the end it got to much for him so you retired from the test.
I saw you again about a year later and what a difference he was, clearly more relaxed, loving what he was doing. I liked how you warmed up, relaxed, working him in a low stretchy frame.
The last time I saw you out I watched from a distance as you did some changes and I was amazed at his ability and how easy you both made it look :D

I don't know PS well and have only met a few times but honestly, this horse is special.
 
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charlie76 said:
He isn't curling his lips, in one he hs his mouth a little open and in the other its foam. He is in the last one but thats the yack picture from before.
He is a bit BTV but only when I work him in to get him softer over his back. He works like this in the test:
meekadressage002.jpg


024.jpg


054-1.jpg


I try to work him in various frames to avoid any tension, it seems to work.
He was ridden from 3 yrs old in draw reins so it has taken a long while to re develop the muscles.
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Just fell in love with your horse, he's amazing!
 
I need to sit in a dark corner after reading all this! PS, interesting ti read about your horse's breeding - friend has an Alzao gelding, did BD, but he's a lot older than your boy.

If I were you I'd read all the cc's and hear step back. Leave it a while and reflect. Pick out what makes sense and apply it. I am the first to defend my boy, and you are right to do so. But please don't jump in so quickly, just digest it all, then if you feel the same, make your comment. :-)
 
MBQ-yes he is.
just doesnt need shoes, even when we did hack he would happily tank up the road in trot, sound as a pound minus shoes :).
i think its better for their feet to go bare if they can, so as long as he's happy and comfy he wont wear shoes................he's not footy at all even on various awful stoney car parks at shows!

amaretto-trust me that i thought before typing, but i dont think i have to sit back for days to know my horse.there is plenty of CC on here ,and also another forum, that i HAVE really taken note of, but i dont agree with the one point about him being any more tense than any other horse that is learning/working or that he is being pushed too hard. I dont have to agree with everything, but trust that i do pick out what i think is applicable.
 
Prince33Sp4rkle said:
MBQ-yes he is.
just doesnt need shoes, even when we did hack he would happily tank up the road in trot, sound as a pound minus shoes :).
i think its better for their feet to go bare if they can, so as long as he's happy and comfy he wont wear shoes................he's not footy at all even on various awful stoney car parks at shows!

.
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I also think that horses are able to move better without shoes. There's more expression :) Esp t/b's who have dinky little feet, to get weighed down by heavy shoes takes quality away from the gait imo.
 
Prince33Sp4rkle said:
MBQ-yes he is.
just doesnt need shoes, even when we did hack he would happily tank up the road in trot, sound as a pound minus shoes :).
i think its better for their feet to go bare if they can, so as long as he's happy and comfy he wont wear shoes................he's not footy at all even on various awful stoney car parks at shows!

amaretto-trust me that i thought before typing, but i dont think i have to sit back for days to know my horse.there is plenty of CC on here ,and also another forum, that i HAVE really taken note of, but i dont agree with the one point about him being any more tense than any other horse that is learning/working or that he is being pushed too hard. I dont have to agree with everything, but trust that i do pick out what i think is applicable.
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Oh I wasn't accusing you of not thinking, sorry if it came across that way. You must feel so tired of having to defend yourself, was just trying to help and save you the hassle of having to constantly explain yourself.
 
Does it really matter what PS does with her horse? Until you have ridden in that persons shoes then you have absolutely no idea.

I had a poster comment a while ago on my horse looking unhappy - it was his first ever event and he was not really established in any way but he needed the mileage so he looked green. It really hurt me for about 10 seconds then I thought FGS this person knows nothing about me or the horse and a picture is a snapshot in time and I had no respect for that persons opinion as they knew nothing about me.

This post has gone on and on - PS is not going to change her methods she gets advice from trainers and has a support system in place so this is not a clueless numpty going ahead and doing stuff without anyone there to chip in if needed.

We all have days where things are less than perfect and I had one last week where my horse was a nightmare. If it had been videoed you would have all been up in arms as he had tantrums kept getting tense and changing behind and had to be ridden strongly in places yet yesterday he came out and was superb.
 
Thats interesting, was Alzao the damsire? I don't usually put much stock by dam sires but I used to have a ex race with Alzao as the dam sire and oh my goodness that horse was the naughtiest, nappiest boy I have ever had the pleasure of bringing on.
He had basically been left in a field for nearly two years after retiring from racing as he threw his happy hack owner on the floor several times ( fair enough, she wasn't the kind of person who should have been bringing on an ex race) but when I got him, he spent a solid 6 months napping & trying every trick in the book to have me on the floor- it was only because he was so weedy & weak physically that he didn't succeed in dumping me.
I remember at the start he was napping downhill a steep stony track - basically cantering and spinning sideways & I remember thinking, oh my goodness this horse has such natural balance- never for once did he feel like he was going to fall over or stumble.
To this day I still haven't sat on a horse that had such amazing natural balance in canter- he was doing changes from day one , so easily and smoothly- I'm sure he could have done Tempi's if I'd tried.
He was a lovely straight mover too, after my year of battling with him he was finally straightened out & was finally a good boy, he was sold into a pony club home& was a teenagers first horse, he did all the pony club teams & did very well. Unorthodox shape over a fence , but did love jumping . Interesting the similarities with CS! Like I say, I miss that horse because his balance in canter was just incredible.
 
Hmmmm my Grade A mare is 15, jumps for fun, nice on the flat (though was horrible on the flat when I first got her at age 9) and she will quite regularly have a complete melt down/paddy attack/turn herself inside out. Is she under pressure....no? Is she tense.....yes quite probably due to whatever terrifying horse eating monsters are coming to get her! If you took a pic of her during one of these she would be slated for tension, unhappiness, obviously being forced out of her comfort zone. In actual fact she is sharp, a bit silly at times and likes to practice handstands etc! I really cannot believe the double standards on this thread....and the most recent pictures held up of a lovely relaxed athlete....well yes the horse looks fab but rider is wearing a beagler which has been established as being about as much use as a chocolate teapot for protection so why is this poster not being slated for not protecting her head. I have locked horns with PS in the past over posts but I have serious respect for her riding and what appears to be very professional horse management! barring she is going to post a video of a full schooling session I don't think we can really comment as pictures are a moment in time. Surely you have all mulled over pro pics from shows and not bought some because they just aren't nice, your face is funny, your position is funny, the horse looks odd, is doing something odd etc. They are no indication of how good or bad your result was!
 
Halfstep said:
Wow, what a mess of a post! I'm not a fan of slanging but healthy debate is good, especially in a subjective sport like dressage. I don't want to weigh in on a personal level but my broad observations are as follows:

Learning and performing movements is secondary always to the development of the basic paces, the quality of collection, and the shift of the balance towards the hind quarters. To me, this lovely horse has a super brain and a lot of athleticism, but his body and musculature are normal; he's a six year old horse. Which means that it is possible that his education exceeds his physical development. That's fine and often happens in training, but that gap should not be allowed to get too wide. I recall, for example, that Harry Boldt does not even start canter half passes until much later in a horses training because of the difficulty in sustaining the quality of collection until the horse is strong enough and confirmed in advanced work.
With such a talented animal, it should be simple enough to teach test movements once the absolute correctness of the basic paces, the power, forward ness and suppleness have been confirmed. I'm sure PS knows this of course! But this post has gone beyond her, and in general that's what I think about the topic.
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Sorry to drag this up but there have been so many valid points made, including the above & I think it is important that riders remember that this is a partnership. You are not a dictator, you ask, the horse. I dont believe the horse in question is physically/mentally ready for all the movements being asked of him, & he is saying so in his body language. As a rider it is your job to listen. I say this all the time, a horse is a herd animal, to survive it has to co-operate with the rest of the herd or it dies. Horses dont disobey for the hell of it, they might just be fresh, overfed, asked a question they dont understand, etc. There is a reason, & it is not "Im going to be difficult today because I dont feel like working with you". Yes they will have their off days, they are not machines, but how many times have riders looked at themselves? How many times have riders got on their horse already carrying the tensions of the day, then transmitting that down to the horse?

Please have gone one about what other youngsters have done, well Charlotte turned Fernandez away soon after he was bought to allow him to chill out as the work had been too intense & he was not wanting to co-operate. Just because you see a 4yo doing flying changes does not mean that all 4yos are ready for that. How many of them have then had to go back a few paces to re-build their confidence, before proceeding again?

Also it keeps coming up, the amount of time someone has been teaching, riding means nothing as far as gaining experience & empathy are concerned. Emphathy is the greatest key to horsemanship along with a good deal of common sense. That is something someone can have after months of being around horses yet another will never have after 30 odd years. Sadly not all the pro riders can feel when their horse is unhappy, or they choose to ignore the signs. Horses are individuals, it is not a case of one hat fits all. Talking of which if the poster wants to ride without a hat & she is paid to ride other peoples horses, then she should be insured. I think I am correct in stating that she is invalidating her insurance by riding without a hat. Funny how many riders including pros think their heads are thicker then anyone elses!! They obviously dont give a flying +$$$ for family, or if they survive those that have to care for them & tax payers who have to foot the bill for the hospital care. Doubtful many of them would have worked & earned enough contributions to have covered these costs.

There are many videos like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvunnwtNahE it shows a partnership which has taken time to develope. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alryG8sSYBw http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vc8Ky7T26Dc
 
magic104 said:
Funny how many riders including pros think their heads are thicker then anyone elses!! They obviously dont give a flying +$$$ for family, or if they survive those that have to care for them & tax payers who have to foot the bill for the hospital care. Doubtful many of them would have worked & earned enough contributions to have covered these costs.

There are many videos like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvunnwtNahE it shows a partnership which has taken time to develope. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alryG8sSYBw http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vc8Ky7T26Dc
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Funny how you are so pro-hat, and yet out of the three videos you have linked to, one is completely hatless and another is in a top hat :confused: It's a bit contradicory, especially considering that those two are riding in front of audiences/under spotlights, one of which appears to be galloping round in circles, all without bridles? Don't get how that could possibly be a remotely safe situation...

Not wanting to be harsh but I'm not sure why this has been dragged up again, and I'm annoyed because I can't find my hunting photos from today :(:p
 
BronsonNutter said:
Funny how you are so pro-hat, and yet out of the three videos you have linked to, one is completely hatless and another is in a top hat :confused: It's a bit contradicory, especially considering that those two are riding in front of audiences/under spotlights, one of which appears to be galloping round in circles, all without bridles? Don't get how that could possibly be a remotely safe situation...

Not wanting to be harsh but I'm not sure why this has been dragged up again, and I'm annoyed because I can't find my hunting photos from today :(:p
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Sorry I am not against someone being "hatless" it is their prerogative, but it does not alter the fact it is a selfish act. It does not alter the fact it invalidates your insurance, it does not alter the fact that your treatment costs the NHS. So my comments "Funny how many riders including pros think their heads are thicker then anyone elses!! They obviously dont give a flying +$$$ for family, or if they survive those that have to care for them & tax payers who have to foot the bill for the hospital care. Doubtful many of them would have worked & earned enough contributions to have covered these costs." say nothing about DON'T ride without a hat, just the consequences. Also "It's a bit contradicory, especially considering that those two are riding in front of audiences/under spotlights, one of which appears to be galloping round in circles, all without bridles? Don't get how that could possibly be a remotely safe situation...". Shows that when you understand your equine partner & the trust is there for both there is no need to "dictate" the horse is a willing partner. None of these horses were trained overnight, so I really dont get what point you are trying to make?? You ride with your weight not the bridle, there is a western rider, if you had watched reining classes then you would know that is what they do. QH's are trained to go flat out when chasing cattle & to stop ASAP once it has been roped. Riding in front of an audience under the spotlights, wow that is dangerous on an untrained horse perhaps. But hey at least they dont have to walk out on foot or ride another to accept any rewards because their horse cant cope with the applauding!

It is without doubt that temperment has some bearing on how horses are going to react to their training. It does not alter the fact that they are individuals who react towards their humans no differently as we do to each other. In that respect just like humans can meet another & not take to them, so can the horse & visa versa. As I said it is a partnership not a dictatorship. The videos show a partnership & trust between horse & human.
 
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