pics of barefoot hoof need opinions and thoughts please!!

[devonlass]

Very quick write up as off out the door to work but if any of would mind casting your eyes over this hoof I would be very grateful.

Won't say too much as interested what people first impressions are and if they fit with what hoof professionals opinion was upon getting same pics.

I have posted about this horse,but please don't read any of my threads until after have looked.Have so many theories and disagreements on this issue that am really interested in honest opinions based on face value of the pics.

These were taken a few weeks ago,and are best angles I could get with an un-coperative horse at the time!!

 

[amandap]

The obvious thing to me is the repeated ripples on the hoof wall = dietary or metabolic distress. Heel ? high and evidence of some degree of thrush which could again be linked to diet mineral deficiency/imbalance and or excess sugars.

Haven't read anything but am only an owner. lol

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

Might be the photo, but is there some conformation defect.. medio / lateral balance?
Has there been any illness, what has caused these event lines?
Is the coronet level?

 

[mightymammoth]

Here you go easier than flicking between the links

[URL=http://s76.photobucket.com/user/angelterri28/media/IMG_0921_zps6779782b.jpg.html][/URL]
http://[URL=http://s76.photobucket.com/user/angelterri28/media/IMG_0919_zps948bf546.jpg.html][/URL]

http://[URL=http://s76.photobucket.com/user/angelterri28/media/IMG_0925_zps3fe5589c.jpg.html][/URL]
http://[URL=http://s76.photobucket.com/user/angelterri28/media/IMG_0924_zps8720cbe0.jpg.html][/URL]

 

[mightymammoth]

if you get no replies on here try http://phoenixhorse.myfastforum.org/index.php agree with others the hooves look very ridged which suggests some dietary/metabolic issues.

possibly some thrush in the central sulcas but it's hard to tell from photo's. What are you feeding and do you feed minerals?

 

[2horsesnomoney]

Ok so my opinion is: there are lots of ripples showing evidence IMO of laminitis or diet issures / changes so I would get a vet to look at the horse and poss x-ray to check for pedal bone rotation. next up slightly high heel and long toe conformation so a good farrier could address this and a slight flare is visible so for me i would take vets advise and poss consider fitting shoes. I know BF people wont like this but its my opinion. Horn quality looks good though. why do you ask OP, it would help to know some history/ what the problems are to advise further. not read any prev. posts though OP
x

 

[devonlass]

Thank you so much victoria1980 for doing the pics,I am not sure how it only came up as links I was hoping for full pics?? Thank you again definitely does make it easier!!

Thanks for all the replies folks

First off absolutely nothing wrong with his pedal bone or anything related,and the lines are just that lines,sorry am not the greatest believer in the event line theory having to mean anything significant.
I have very good grazing that also changes seasonally (as in I move them to totally different land at least once if not twice a year),so the lines usually are usually just indicative of the change,and he has never had issues from this foot wise.

Sorry should have thought to say ignore the lines,more the shape and underneath of the foot I'm interested in opinions on.

No thrush of any significance,but does live out 24/7 in very wet conditions (hence the need to move grazing!!) so wouldn't be a surprise if had it mildly at times,but again not what causes him any issues.

So no one thinks there is anything glaringly wrong with that foot that would cause prolonged and moderate lameness,or that there is anything a professional should have noticed from those pics??

2horsesnomoney- Very interesting reply,what in particular is swaying you towards him needing shoes??

Many thanks to everyone for their thoughts has been very useful to me

 

[2horsesnomoney]

so for me shoes would help by controlling the mild flare as the horn will grow to the shoe, it would also provide some heel support and enable a farrier to bring the toe back and support the heel slightly more. you say pedal bones are fine and and lines are not sign. From this i assume you have had x-rays to check foot balance? what lameness are you seeing ? any other symptoms? are you using a bare foot trimmer or farrier out of interest.

 

[amandap]

Thank you so much victoria1980 for doing the pics,I am not sure how it only came up as links I was hoping for full pics?? Thank you again definitely does make it easier!!

Thanks for all the replies folks

First off absolutely nothing wrong with his pedal bone or anything related,and the lines are just that lines,sorry am not the greatest believer in the event line theory having to mean anything significant.
I have very good grazing that also changes seasonally (as in I move them to totally different land at least once if not twice a year),so the lines usually are usually just indicative of the change,and he has never had issues from this foot wise.

Sorry should have thought to say ignore the lines,more the shape and underneath of the foot I'm interested in opinions on.

No thrush of any significance,but does live out 24/7 in very wet conditions (hence the need to move grazing!!) so wouldn't be a surprise if had it mildly at times,but again not what causes him any issues.

So no one thinks there is anything glaringly wrong with that foot that would cause prolonged and moderate lameness,or that there is anything a professional should have noticed from those pics??

2horsesnomoney- Very interesting reply,what in particular is swaying you towards him needing shoes??

Many thanks to everyone for their thoughts has been very useful to me

Oh I'm glad the X Rays were ok and showed a perfect pedal bone correctly held inside the hoof capsule.
Good luck finding the answers.

 

[devonlass]

so for me shoes would help by controlling the mild flare as the horn will grow to the shoe, it would also provide some heel support and enable a farrier to bring the toe back and support the heel slightly more. you say pedal bones are fine and and lines are not sign. From this i assume you have had x-rays to check foot balance? what lameness are you seeing ? any other symptoms? are you using a bare foot trimmer or farrier out of interest.

Well as you have been so bang on the money so to speak will tell you ;-)

Had intermittent levels of lameness since mid/later summer,worse in trot and downhill.I was thinking heel pain and worse case scenario navicular etc.Was trying to figure it out with trimmer (use a trimmer not farrier BTW) hence those pics,but we like most people on this thread couldn't see much wrong with the foot itself.
He has always been inclined to high heels BTW from what we thought was bad farrier work before i had him (was shod until came to me),so we didn't pay too much mind to that,and we have always tried to keep his heels down when trimming (mistake as it turns out).

Anyway had nerve blocks 3-4 weeks ago,only got one in as he's a pig for the vet,and low and behold sound as a pound.

Block we got in meant had to be in heel area and didn't go as far as the pedal bone so ruled most things out.We are left with heel pain due to foot balance or very tiny possibility of coffin joint issue but vet pretty sure not the case.So we are left with heel pain due to foot imbalance and a nice fat vets bill!!

He doesn't land square either which would make sense as he does toe out on that leg,and would explain his uneven growth on that foot if left to it's own devices and not corrected with trimming.

I am just torn knowing what to do for the best,I am just tired of seeing my lad in discomfort and wondering how could have missed all his problems with foot shape and balance for over a year.
Been trying to give him a correct foot and turns out was all wrong for him

 

[magicmoose]

First off absolutely nothing wrong with his pedal bone or anything related,and the lines are just that lines,sorry am not the greatest believer in the event line theory having to mean anything significant.
I have very good grazing that also changes seasonally (as in I move them to totally different land at least once if not twice a year),so the lines usually are usually just indicative of the change,and he has never had issues from this foot wise.

Sorry should have thought to say ignore the lines,more the shape and underneath of the foot I'm interested in opinions on.

Agree with amandap - glad you had the x-rays done. I'm assuming that you did?

Has the vet also ruled out the thrush causing the lameness?

Even if you ignore the event lines in the hoof wall, the stretched white line indicates that there is probably an issue with his diet. I would have hoped that a vet would notice and expected that a hoof care professional would see and comment on it.

 

[cptrayes]

Those hooves look too long from the photos. It is not normal to have any height in the hoof wall at the toe, it is normal for the sole callous to run in a smooth line straight into the hoof wall.

Your horse is therefore peripherally loading just as if it was wearing a shoe, and could be suffering what we would normally consider to be a shoe caused lameness. Unless the horse is landing decisively heel first, it would not be unlikely that any lameness is due to wear on the deep digital flexor tendon.

If a pro has been trimming those feet and left the horse loading peripherally without giving you a darned good reason why, then I think you have some cause to question whether they know what they are doing.

Caution : Pictures can be deceptive !

 

[devonlass]

Even if you ignore the event lines in the hoof wall, the stretched white line indicates that there is probably an issue with his diet. I would have hoped that a vet would notice and expected that a hoof care professional would see and comment on it.

Whilst I appreciate all thoughts can I just make clear again there is NO issue with this horses diet in regards to lameness.I am not saying he has a perfect diet for barefoot but he has a pretty good one and i cannot do anymore in that respect anyway so is irrelevant.
I don't ignore the event lines in general I'm just asking that we IGNORE them for the purposes of this thread,they are not in any way connected to the current issue.His internal hoof health is fine,and his lameness is NOT grazing or diet related.
Sorry but I really am aware of diet and related barefoot issues,and the importance of them but in this case that's not the problem.

Those hooves look too long from the photos. It is not normal to have any height in the hoof wall at the toe, it is normal for the sole callous to run in a smooth line straight into the hoof wall.

Your horse is therefore peripherally loading just as if it was wearing a shoe, and could be suffering what we would normally consider to be a shoe caused lameness. Unless the horse is landing decisively heel first, it would not be unlikely that any lameness is due to wear on the deep digital flexor tendon.

If a pro has been trimming those feet and left the horse loading peripherally without giving you a darned good reason why, then I think you have some cause to question whether they know what they are doing.

Caution : Pictures can be deceptive !

Thank you for the reply.

No he does not land heel first,in fact doesn't even land square.If this had been the case for over a year in your opinion should it have been cause for concern on the part of who was trimming him?? Bearing in mind though for that year horse was sound and did appear happy on his feet.

Not tendon lameness thank goodness (well not yet anyway although I have my concerns regarding his action due to the imbalance),very specifically heel pain and mainly on outside half of foot determined by nerve block.

That last paragraph,what would be a good reason??

As for questioning the trimmer,I can't even describe to you the mixed feelings am having on this,is horrible place to be in terms of loyalty and friendship :-(

 

[cptrayes]

Whilst I appreciate all thoughts can I just make clear again there is NO issue with this horses diet in regards to lameness.I am not saying he has a perfect diet for barefoot but he has a pretty good one and i cannot do anymore in that respect anyway so is irrelevant.
I don't ignore the event lines in general I'm just asking that we IGNORE them for the purposes of this thread,they are not in any way connected to the current issue.His internal hoof health is fine,and his lameness is NOT grazing or diet related.
Sorry but I really am aware of diet and related barefoot issues,and the importance of them but in this case that's not the problem.



Thank you for the reply.

No he does not land heel first,in fact doesn't even land square.If this had been the case for over a year in your opinion should it have been cause for concern on the part of who was trimming him?? Bearing in mind though for that year horse was sound and did appear happy on his feet.

Not tendon lameness thank goodness (well not yet anyway although I have my concerns regarding his action due to the imbalance),very specifically heel pain and mainly on outside half of foot determined by nerve block.

That last paragraph,what would be a good reason??

As for questioning the trimmer,I can't even describe to you the mixed feelings am having on this,is horrible place to be in terms of loyalty and friendship :-(

Not heel first landing and your trimmer did not comment? A heel first landing is a prerequisite. Rooney demonstrated clearly with carcass legs that a toe first landing results in damage to the ddft.

I think you have your answer to your horse's continuing lameness. It is extremely likely that it has ddft damage (in the old days the diagnosis would have been navicular disease) If it also blocks to one side then it sounds as though you have concurrent collateral ligament damage, which is not uncommon.

It is very unlikely that the horse will come sound until you achieve a heel first landing and getting rid of that peripheral loading will be key to that.

Think very hard about changing your trimmer. I am sorry to say that if your horse was sound for a year then your trimmer is likely to be very much at fault here, specifically for allowing the horse to grow a 'shoe' of excess hoof wall.

 

[devonlass]

Not heel first landing and your trimmer did not comment? A heel first landing is a prerequisite.

I think you have your answer to your horse's continuing lameness. It is extremely likely that it has ddft damage (in the old days the diagnosis would have been navicular disease) If it also blocks to one side then it sounds as though you have concurrent collateral ligament damage, which is not uncommon.

It is very unlikely that the horse will come sound until you achieve a heel first landing and getting rid of that peripheral loading will be key to that.

Think very hard about changing your trimmer. I am sorry to say that if your horse was sound for a year then your trimmer is likely to be very much at fault here.

Should point out first that horse has had the same trimmer all along,she took off his shoes and has done the whole journey with him.He was sound and appeared mostly ok (if I'm honest I've had a few niggles but trimmer reassured me and was happy with him,so I assumed was just me not knowing what I was on about and over thinking things as I do tend to do if I'm honest).

Trimmer and I *thought* we had heel first landing at one stage,and for a reasonable period of time,but he definitely has not been for a few months and def not since the lameness.Trimmer did notice this was the case when trotted him up for her to show lameness issue to be fair but I don't think was overly concerned especially as we assumed was possibly suffering heel pain hence being reluctant to land heel first,or that's my understanding from what was said at the time anyway.

I am pretty sure as is vet that the pain is in the HEEL ONLY,no tendon or ligament involved,not at this stage anyway.He was nerve blocked and was totally sound in trot downhill which is his absolute worst gait and terrain.

Vet said no way is navicular related (I was concerned it was this as was obviously heel and always worse downhill etc) as we didn't block as far into the foot as the pedal bone.

Also,and this may or may not mean anything but it made sense to me.Danilon has no effect on him for pain relief which I imagine it would if it were tendon/ligament or any other type of inflammation issue?? Normally works well on him BTW but I am assuming not now as it's not a muscle or skeletal issue,but rather a foot problem for which I wouldn't expect an anti inflammatory to work as effectively.

Can you please explain to me more about the peripheral loading,and what in laymans terms you think is happening??

I will get some more pics tomorrow of his foot now BTW,looks quite different to those pics.I was just curious with those pics to see if anything obvious was missed.

Thanks again and sorry for all the Q's.I so want to sort this out for him.Grumpy git he is but this has gone on long enough and want to resolve it for him.

 

[cptrayes]

I have told you what is happening. The toe first landing is causing erosion to the deep digital flexor tendon where it wraps over the navicular bone inside the foot, giving the classic heel pain associated with what used to be called navicular disease. The lateral imbalance has quite possibly also strained the collateral ligament on the side that blocks out.

Why is your vet so adamant that it cannot be the ddft inside the foot? What other answer does he have?

Get an MRI scan and you will know. Until then we are all guessing.

If you can't afford one, get a trimmer who can get rid of that peripheral loading and get the horse heel first landing, or send it to Rockley.

 

[ester]

OP did you get xrays or no?

Frank blocked to caudal hoof (heel) - I'm not sure you can block any further back than the first one he had and you also have to remember that with time the block does spread.

He had quite unhappy pedal bones (reverse rotated in his case) and his lameness also blocked to the coffin joint - so def did involved pedal bone and surrounding structures. He also landed flat and badly laterally first on his lame foot- he wasn't MRI'd but am pretty convinced he had a degree of collateral ligament damage.

I would also be very concerned that your trimmer wasn't concerned that the horse wasn't landing heel first. My trimmer has always checked to see that his movement is better post than pre trim - and he now lands flat on that foot (albeit slightly wonky on the opposite one but sound and happy).

If I were you I would 1) xray 2) get a different professional to assess feet with the help of xrays to start making improvements.

I'd be curious to know which bit of his diet you think is not perfect? I have just relaxed Frank's mineral regime (on to a premade mix) having moved to unknown grazing and we are keeping a good eye on his feet in the meantime.

 

[devonlass]

I have told you what is happening. The toe first landing is causing erosion to the deep digital flexor tendon where it wraps over the navicular bone inside the foot, giving the classic heel pain associated with what used to be called navicular disease. The lateral imbalance has quite possibly also strained the collateral ligament on the side that blocks out.

Why is your vet so adamant that it cannot be the ddft inside the foot? What other answer does he have?

Get an MRI scan and you will know. Until then we are all guessing.

If you can't afford one, get a trimmer who can get rid of that peripheral loading and get the horse heel first landing, or send it to Rockley.

I am sure I have mentioned this a few times already but in case i was not clear.The block was only put into a very specific part of the foot which covered mostly the heel area of foot and DID NOT extend as far as the pedal bone or any area that my vet associates with navicular,and it certainly did not extend far enough in any other way as to indicate tendon or ligament.
Plus his lameness is not indicative or symptomatic for any of those types of issues.My vets words were she is 99% certain this is a foot balance problem,and can be resolved with appropriate trimming if barefoot is what I would like to continue with or putting shoes on if not.

That is as much as I know,I'm just trying to figure out how we got to this point with a horse that was as far as I knew receiving good foot care and how and if we missed anything.

MRI is not something I'm willing to pay for or needed at this stage IMO.Rokley even more so TBH.

Thank you very much for your time and replies

 

[jessieblue]

I find this a very interesting post as am in the midst of a barefoot rehab for my horse. He was diagnosed with collateral ligament desmitis both fronts after mri scan x rays and nerve blocks. I am a little confused that your vet seems to have ruled out navicular disease or syndrome, whilst diagnosing "heel pain" Heel pain, is exactly that, pain in the area of the heel. The heel is the area where the navicular aparatus including all the soft tissue, ddft, collateral, impar ligament sesamoidean ligament are located, also the navicular bursa. Usually if the horse responds positively to palmar digital nerve block (assuming this was the one you refer to) It means the pain can be from any or all of these structures. it is impossible to know which one until x rays and ultrasound scans are taken and even then, as in my case, not until MRI. My horse was sound as a pound after palmar digital nerve block to both front feet, but his injury was collateral ligaments. I also think he was suffering with low grade laminits, but that was only recently confirmed from the very clear event lines in his hooves showing at least two undisputed episodes of laminits! vet had said not and so had farrier at the time, but barefoot community had said lgl!

Im not offering advice as I am very new to this journey, just really interested in the comments made here. Initially I thought they looked like really nice feet. Good structures good frog nice symmetry. I can see long toes and heels and a bit underrun too. I would also have said a little metabolic issue, but as you say maybe due to change in diet. There is some medial flare which could put the collateral ligaments under strain. Once it was pointed out I can see than indeed the hoof would be loading peripherally. Basically meaning that the weight is being taken on the hoof wall. You want to try and encourage the frog to have contact with the ground, this means (I think I am right) having a shorter heel and then letting the frog develop and stimulate the digital cushion which will in turn allow a more comfortable heel first landing, which is the most important aspect of barefoot rehab. I also wonder how hard working the hooves are?? I know it is so important to do plenty of work on a variety of surfaces to get the digital cushion back in use and therefore establish correct biomechanics and loading. The medio lateral balance should then follow when the heel is comfortable to land on. This is the twenty million dollar question, because of course this takes time along with lots of work walking in hand with or without boots over different surfaces and also correct nutrition. If the frogs are infected they will be sore and then heel first will not happen. If the diet isnt quite right the hooves will be more sensitive and then no heel first. if you do not do enough work on roads or hard surfaces no heel first as the feet will not condition. etc etc. I am sure you know most of this stuff, but just rambling in case I say anything that may be of help. I know how hard it is to get everything right, so dont be too discouraged. I am sure if you can work towards getting the heel first landing this will improve things. I am a little concerned about your vets diagnosis without x rays (if this is the case) I dont believe a diagnosis can be made simply from a nerve block! At least thats what I was told, this only tells you what area of the foot the pain is in. There are so many structures in the caudal (heel) hoof. Thats why mri is usually the gold standard. However, whatever the injury effecting a heel first proper balanced loading of the hoof with good digital cushion will help to heal any structures involved.

One more question, did vet x ray to be sure there is not rotation of pedal bone?? I think thats what others are trying to ask. Although your diet may be good it can be possible that your horse is sensitive to grass and even insulin resistant. Have you tested for IR and cushings to rule out hoof sensitivity which may be preventing the heel first landing?

 

[cptrayes]

I am sure I have mentioned this a few times already but in case i was not clear.The block was only put into a very specific part of the foot which covered mostly the heel area of foot and DID NOT extend as far as the pedal bone or any area that my vet associates with navicular,and it certainly did not extend far enough in any other way as to indicate tendon or ligament.
Plus his lameness is not indicative or symptomatic for any of those types of issues.My vets words were she is 99% certain this is a foot balance problem,and can be resolved with appropriate trimming if barefoot is what I would like to continue with or putting shoes on if not.

That is as much as I know,I'm just trying to figure out how we got to this point with a horse that was as far as I knew receiving good foot care and how and if we missed anything.

MRI is not something I'm willing to pay for or needed at this stage IMO.Rokley even more so TBH.

Thank you very much for your time and replies

Why does your vet think navicular is called navicular if it does not block to the navicular?

The pedal bone is not part of navicular disease, or of ddft problems in the foot, both of which block to the back of the foot, just where your horse blocks sound to.

If you have not misunderstood him then I think you badly need a new vet who actually knows what he is talking about.

And a trimmer who knows what they are doing is high on the list too.


I have to say I am baffled why you are asking for help on here if you are simply going to brush off all the information you are being given as of no use. I am another who is concerned about the growth rings, they are very undesirable but I don't think they are your main problem, the lack of a heel first landing is.

 

[amandap]

I am sure I have mentioned this a few times already but in case i was not clear.The block was only put into a very specific part of the foot which covered mostly the heel area of foot and DID NOT extend as far as the pedal bone or any area that my vet associates with navicular,and it certainly did not extend far enough in any other way as to indicate tendon or ligament.
Plus his lameness is not indicative or symptomatic for any of those types of issues.My vets words were she is 99% certain this is a foot balance problem,and can be resolved with appropriate trimming if barefoot is what I would like to continue with or putting shoes on if not.

That is as much as I know,I'm just trying to figure out how we got to this point with a horse that was as far as I knew receiving good foot care and how and if we missed anything.

MRI is not something I'm willing to pay for or needed at this stage IMO.Rokley even more so TBH.

Thank you very much for your time and replies

It is pointless looking back at this stage imho, your priority is helping your horse surely?

If you read the Rockley blog you will see how important diet, enabling heel first landing to prevent tendon and ligament issues etc. is.

I think Ester's suggestion of a change of professional and X Rays are a good start (also CPT's) but I have to say you might have to face some of the things you feel you can't change and think outside the box a bit as diet/heel first landing are fundamentally important to hoof health.
Sorry you don't agree with some of your horses' warning signs but some of the posters are experienced in these types of issues.
I can say more.

http://www.hoofrehab.com/NavicularSyndrome.html

 

[ester]

I am confused by the OP saying that the ripples occur due to good grazing and moving fields once or twice a year.

Frank still does get the occasional event line - but they move fields 3/4 times a year although grazing restricted somewhat in summer (and it is land which has been unimproved for 20 odd years- not rich dairy pasture) so maybe that's the difference because field moving doesn't generate such frequent rippling as that for him.

OP I am not sure whether you read my post re nerve block positioning etc before replying to CP?

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

Why does your vet think navicular is called navicular if it does not block to the navicular?

The pedal bone is not part of navicular disease, or of ddft problems in the foot, both of which block to the back of the foot, just where your horse blocks sound to.

If you have not misunderstood him then I think you badly need a new vet who actually knows what he is talking about.

And a trimmer who knows what they are doing is high on the list too.


I have to say I am baffled why you are asking for help on here if you are simply going to brush off all the information you are being given as of no use. I am another who is concerned about the growth rings, they are very undesirable but I don't think they are your main problem, the lack of a heel first landing is.

I agree with cptrayes, and others: I don't like the feet, I don't like the event lines, and I don't like the diagnoses............. it all seems very wooly....
There are other OP's who have come on here to start a discussion, and when it appears they are being criticised they take an antagonistic stance.
Nearly every one says diet ......... but I don't see OP telling us what is being fed. She does say it is a good diet [no one ever claims to be feeding a bad diet], but that it can't be changed ........ what can I say?
Event lines can't be due to changing fields, they are too frequent, anyway they don't tend to produce ridges like that. OP does not agree that event lines signify anything .. not sure why but that is her opinion, though not that of any of the regular posters on here.
Also exercise, has this stopped due to lameness or not? certainly one would like to keep horse sound and barefoot, any farrrier can do a pasture trim.
Hope you sort this out OP, but even if you don't agree with everyone else, just try changing the diet and the management regime, because otherwise nothing is going to improve.
I suggest OP buys "Feet First" which has a lot of information presented in a clear way.
In the meantime please do try to be a bit more open to suggestions.

 

[2horsesnomoney]

ok so OP i have not read all of the posts as BF is a difficult subject and there are lots of pros and cons. I think personally that you should consider a using a farrier as opposed to trimmer and also i would get lateral and ap x-rays done by your vet. heel pain could be due to a few things navicular, coffin joint probs, pedal bone rotation (negative), foot balance or bone bruising from thin soles. Anyway i see that your vet has ruled out some of the above but IMO he cannot rule these out without having x-rayed first. If you x-ray you can treat and move forward with out x-rays you are going to be wasting money and stabbing blindly in the dark to treat this problem. nerve blocks can diffuse through more of the foot with time alternativly if your vet blocked out the coffin joint another option would be injecting with an anti inflammatory into that joint and see if it makes a differance. But with costs in mine 4 x-rays should not cost the earth but may help save money in the long run. Also i know a lot of people want to go BF but to be honest some horses can and some cant. hope that helps PM me if i can help futher.

 

[amandap]

I can say more.

Should read I can say no more.

 

[LucyPriory]

I've just read this thread all the way through. It does come across a little odd. But from my own experience I am aware that nerve blocks are not as cut and dried as we would love them to be. Heel pain is a vague term and can just be from something like thrush. Or it could be from damage to the ddft or something else. If you want a more precise diagnosis this will probably involve an MRI plus.

To be honest the first place I would start would be to clear up the apparent thrush infection that is in the back of the frog.

I find it a little strange that there is nothing that can be done to change diet. I admit I wouldn't change my horse's diet, but I've spent a long time constructing one that keeps her healthy. If there was a possibility her diet was an issue and could be affecting her health I would move heaven and earth to change it. But I guess OP you must have very good reasons for not wanting to discuss diet or change it or whatever and I respect that.

Re the event lines - for me this is 'the earth is flat/the earth is round' an event line marks something. It doesn't have to be a bad thing, but they are significant. Of the hundreds of horses I've looked after the best hooves have been the ones with no or very few/minimal event lines. Those that have event lines tend to have a stretched white line and I suspect that this horse does too, judging by the photos.

I am curious as to how the vet is judging foot balance? It is impossible to judge from the photos alone, the views are not suitable. Many vets will x-ray the pedal bone if they think this is an issue. Did your vet do this? I have come across more than one professional who confuses symmetry with balance and x-rays can help sort this out too.

 

[cptrayes]

Also i know a lot of people want to go BF but to be honest some horses can and some cant. hope that helps PM me if i can help futher.

You missed something by not reading the thread before replying. This horse has already proved it can go barefoot, but has regressed. The thread was to question why a horse progressing well for a year should have gone lame.

I think I am also correct in saying that the horse was initially taken out of shoes to resolve lameness issues, so shoeing it now would possibly be unlikely to be a good option.

 

[2horsesnomoney]

You missed something by not reading the thread before replying. This horse has already proved it can go barefoot, but has regressed. The thread was to question why a horse progressing well for a year should have gone lame.

I think I am also correct in saying that the horse was initially taken out of shoes to resolve lameness issues, so shoeing it now would possibly be unlikely to be a good option.

I understand what you are saying but from this i take a differant view: that the horse was originally lame and this was not necessarily due to shoeing but the original lameness never went away just regressed due to less work or managment changes and has now returned and thus not a results of shoeing at all. Without invetigating the original lameness how can we know that it was due to shoeing and not another foot/ heel issue?? I personally do not like trimmers and my vote is always for a farrier as trimmers have not training, qualifications or governing body? (to my knowledge) I know many farriers working and trimming barefoot horses very well.
But i am by no means a BF expert which I know you are CP, so i may well be wrong just my thoughts
what is OP thinking now after reading everyones thoughts...

 

[cptrayes]

I understand what you are saying but from this i take a differant view: that the horse was originally lame and this was not necessarily due to shoeing but the original lameness never went away just regressed due to less work or managment changes and has now returned and thus not a results of shoeing at all. Without invetigating the original lameness how can we know that it was due to shoeing and not another foot/ heel issue?? I personally do not like trimmers and my vote is always for a farrier as trimmers have not training, qualifications or governing body? (to my knowledge) I know many farriers working and trimming barefoot horses very well.
But i am by no means a BF expert which I know you are CP, so i may well be wrong just my thoughts
what is OP thinking now after reading everyones thoughts...

The horse came sound without shoes. It has been allowed to grow a new 'shoe' of horn and is now unsound again. It's not shoes, as such, it's the peripheral loading that this horse appears to be unable to tolerate, though it's entirely possible it's something else. Certainly a better diagnosis is now overdue.

I think you would be shocked if you looked at the farriery syllabus, it's woefully lacking in the respect of trimming working barefoot horses and the effect of feed on feet. And the governing body isn't worth a fig, they struck off Mark Wellfair, a farrier who deliberately mutilated two horses feet in a fit of pique so that the owner would be unable to shoe them for the maximum possible time, for only twelve weeks. He drew blood and lamed them and they thought that was a suitable punishment.I have never heard of any farrier, no matter how bad, struck off for poor shoeing, yet plenty exist.

There are also four good lengthy training courses for trimmers, who then also have a governing body of the organisation that they trained with.

I do not consider myself an expert, just somewhat more knowledgeable and with horses doing harder work than some people.

 

[devonlass]

First off thank you all so much for the replies,they are appreciated.Second I'm sorry if my posts have seemed at all unclear or do not read well,I have been on my stint of night shifts and tiredness does not make for clarity of mind or typing

I am trying to address all points so bear with me this will be long,but please do read if you have replied on this thread as i am sure some of my previous points may have been lost or as said above not very clear so hopefully can now shed a bit more light

I am a little confused that your vet seems to have ruled out navicular disease or syndrome, whilst diagnosing "heel pain" Heel pain, is exactly that, pain in the area of the heel. The heel is the area where the navicular aparatus including all the soft tissue, ddft, collateral, impar ligament sesamoidean ligament are located, also the navicular bursa. Usually if the horse responds positively to palmar digital nerve block (assuming this was the one you refer to) It means the pain can be from any or all of these structures.

Initially I thought they looked like really nice feet. Good structures good frog nice symmetry.

Thank you for your very comprehensive reply,I did not quote all of it (just the bits that answer yours and others questions so not all aimed at you despite being your post i quoted,hope that ok!!),but I did find all of it most useful,not least the kind and sympathetic tone,thanks again and i hope your barefoot journey continues well

My vet was very confident it isn't navicular,and I did express to her that this had been one of my main concerns due to the location of the discomfort.

I think it's important to remember in all this that my vet was here for over an hour (took that long to deal with pig of a horse to get the block in!!),has had a good look,feel and seen him trotting,turning on varying ground etc,before and after the block,studied his foot and way of going,and had an extensive chat with me regarding the history of the lameness.She also has seen him before now when sound so knows him reasonably well.
It's not like she's made a diagnosis based only on photos and my info or just spent five minutes with the horse.

Then there is the issue that we only managed to get ONE of the needles in,as I understand it there are usually 3 used for this type of block?? I am not sure how relevant that is TBH,but as I understood it at the time it did narrow down the options as to what it could be as there was only a very small area actually blocked but despite this the horse then was completely SOUND.

It's also worth mentioning of course that all I have relayed here is my memory and interpretation of events that were a few weeks ago now,so it is entirely possible and likely TBH that some details have been lost in the translation so to speak.

I do not doubt my vets ability or diagnosis,she's an excellent and very pragmatic vet who was doing exactly what I asked her to do in considering costs and the fact that the horse is very difficult to manage and handle under certain circumstances,vets being one them!!

Why does your vet think navicular is called navicular if it does not block to the navicular?

The pedal bone is not part of navicular disease, or of ddft problems in the foot, both of which block to the back of the foot, just where your horse blocks sound to.

I have to say I am baffled why you are asking for help on here if you are simply going to brush off all the information you are being given as of no use. I am another who is concerned about the growth rings, they are very undesirable but I don't think they are your main problem, the lack of a heel first landing is.

Please read response to post above as I think and hope that should cover most of those points

I'm not sure I understand the sentence at the beginning of your post,but she didn't block as far down the foot as the pedal bone,I assume as the horse only allowed us to get one of the three blocks in,but either way the block did not extend that far which as I understand it makes it less likely to be navicular related??
I think also he does not have any other typical symptoms of navicular,although I appreciate these can be varied and vague but generally speaking.

I am aware as is she that none of what we did can entirely rule out any sort of navicular based problem as that now encompasses so many more soft tissues etc than used to be thought,BUT more that she feels it is very unlikely to be that and more likely to be a foot balance issue.I suppose a certain amount of any vet diagnosis has to be his/her own judgement,and hers was that it isn't navicular.

To be fair I am not brushing off anything in a rude or uninterested way,or I didn't mean to anyway,but neither was I asking for a diagnosis or advice on what the problem is.My original reason for posting was to ask what if anything others saw from the pics as I am trying to establish if this could or should have been picked up earlier.I was happy and interested to listen to others thoughts,but I was not asking for help with a diagnosis,that's what I pay a vet for.

I am aware the growth rings are not ideal,and i not unconcerned about them,but like yourself I am confident they are not related to the current problem,hence why I am not focusing on them for these purposes.

It is pointless looking back at this stage imho, your priority is helping your horse surely?

I have to say you might have to face some of the things you feel you can't change and think outside the box a bit as diet/heel first landing are fundamentally important to hoof health.
Sorry you don't agree with some of your horses' warning signs but some of the posters are experienced in these types of issues.

Actually the entire point was to look back,to see if anything should have been spotted by the professional (and myself to be fair,am not shirking the responsibility).
*My* priority is definitely to help my horse,but that was NOT my reason for posting on here.All thoughts and points have been very interesting to me and very helpful but my reason for posting was actually to see of others spotted anything amiss OR felt that other people involved in my horses foot care should have.

I don't *feel* I can't change some things,I *know* I can't change them in relation to diet.I will cover my situation and feed regime further down,but it's not that I am ignorant or lazy etc,I simply have to work with what I have land and geography wise,I cannot change my entire landscape!!

I am unsure why you think I don't consider heel first landing important,so cannot address that point.

I am not disagreeing with anyones knowledge or experience,I just know my horse and what is relevant to this current problem and to be fair diet isn't it!!

I am confused by the OP saying that the ripples occur due to good grazing and moving fields once or twice a year.

OP I am not sure whether you read my post re nerve block positioning etc before replying to CP?

That was too hasty and misleading a response on my part to be fair,apologies.Was trying to keep it short for once lol

In a nutshell I keep my horse on flood plain.The upside is it's 500 yds from my front door the downside is it floods of course.Even more so in the last 18 months as they are building 300 houses directly behind my field,so have removed what was essentially a massive soak away and diverted all the excess water downhill into my paddock!!
Every winter we have to move onto new grazing as my paddock is half under water for most of the winter.This might be just one big field nearby,but that field is cattle grazing most of the summer so very lush rye grass.Or it might be a case of having a couple of smaller fields that we rotate around for the winter,whatever my lovely farmer can provide me with basically.All of them though will be cattle fields and VERY good grass,not even remotely ideal for my two very good doers,but unavoidable.
Sometimes like last year due to wet spell and then late spring,and most of the year before due to the stupid amount of rain we will be on the move far more often.

At present we are trying to last as long as poss in our usual field,but this means supplementing with hay quite a lot,again very rich hay as doesn't really come any other way here in my part of Devon.

I guess what I'm trying (probably badly lol) to get across is that my land is not at all ideal for the type of horses I have,and can depending on weather be very changable.It is these changes I believe that cause the event lines,but they are more just indicative of changes rather than problems IMO and experience now having kept then here and this way for years.

No I did not see post,and only just noticed this so will look shortly,apologies