Pics pre-farrier

Everybody is lending their opinion, their experiences on here. That's what the forum is about. I've even seen dosages mentioned and treatment plans, which feed to buy. Do they go too far? I think not, as its just an opinion on their experiences and they are entitled to that opinion, take it or leave it. They are trying to help also.

The Op posted pics and asked for an opinion and I gave it. Pardon me if I'm good at it. I won't apologize for that. I've got years and years under my belt and I'm sorry it scares you. It's just my opinion and I'm entitled to it.

Anyone who has bothered to read through my post, tell me that you didn't learn anything, or that nothing made sense, or that you're not seeing things just a little bit better. My 6 hour effort is to help everyone have better conversations with their farrier...just what I saw...not to diagnose or treat....just an opinion that was asked for.

At any rate, we don't want you cringing in the corner with your hackles up...pity.... I'll leave. Best wishes....
 
missyclare said:
At any rate, we don't want you cringing in the corner with your hackles up...pity.... I'll leave. Best wishes....
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I thank you for your views and appreciate the effort you have obviously put into your post. However, I can understand where previous posters are coming from, your diagnosis is pretty in depth from a few pics. I would personally like you to keep posting though as I find it very interesting and informative and will be interested to see further down the line whether your views are correct.
 
Ok, so after a mix up with dates regarding the vet visit, vet has been today. Unfortunately for whatever reason, they have been unable to obtain his previous records :( but as the last time he saw a vet was probably 6 months + the findings would most likely be redundant now.

Not great news but not all doom and gloom. On a positive he seemed happy with his feet and agreed he does not need the bar shoes.

On a negative he suspects damage to the check ligament which may continue high up above the knee joint. He did flexion tests on all four legs and only the problem leg showed up issues. He is uncomfortable on the leg, but we are pretty sure he is not in any significant pain.

So...off for X-ray, scan, nerve block and possible steroid injections. Vet was pretty positive he would be fine for the work I want him for, but doubts that he will ever come completely sound due to the length of time it has been since the original 'injury'. Worst case scenario is that he has a bone chip somewhere and may need major surgery. Unlikely but possible, so going with scans etc instead of just treatment to make sure.

Has anyone got experience of taking a horse barefoot after tendon/ligament injury? Just to point out - I don't expect going barefoot to help with healing in this situation, but I guess I want to know if it could cause any further issues?
 
Hi, again! Glad he's comfy currently. Try not to dwell on the new possible issues the vet has raised, they're just guesses at this stage (I've seen many of these situations change daily).

Just enjoy the current calm, when you get X-rays I think we'd like to see them, me, with particular interest in the angle of the pedal bone. I remain hopeful for your horse.

Missyclaire, I think you put an awful lot of time and effort, and well intentioned too, into your posts. The X-rays will be very interesting for you.
 
missyclare said:
Right Front Before and After by missyclare, on Flickr

……...

The bottom line is that he was lame and now he's not, which is good. ………
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Quad et demonstrandum, Anyone? :) If an unsound horse, with care comes sound, then where are the decisions and remedies to be questioned?

I also fail to understand how the foot of a horse in Canada should be so different from one here in the UK, but then the foot of a horse has always been a mystery to me, which is why I listen to my farrier.

Alec.
 
Because often how long they stay sound for is important, wedges will often bring a navicular horse sound, but only for a short while when it will often then be worse than before..
 
Alec Swan said:
Quad et demonstrandum, Anyone? :) If an unsound horse, with care comes sound, then where are the decisions and remedies to be questioned?

I also fail to understand how the foot of a horse in Canada should be so different from one here in the UK, but then the foot of a horse has always been a mystery to me, which is why I listen to my farrier.

Alec.
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Alec I am one of many people on this forum who, if they had listened to their farrier, would now have either a paddock ornament or no horse at all. Three horses in my case, dozens of others owned by other people. I know two horses that hunted the last meet of the season this weekend. In autumn last year one was prescribed wedge rocker shoes and given a 30% prognosis of ever turning to some level of work. The other owner was told everything that could be done had been and to bute the horse up until it could cope no longer and then retire or pts.

Both horses were taken barefoot and removed from all medication and are sound and evidence is fast growing that they are very likely to remain so. That last statement cannot be said of any soundness brought about by remedial shoeing.

The fact is that only the best farriers are up to date with what has been achieved with barefoot rehab of foot lame horses, and that they are unfortunately still currently in a minority.
 
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Alec Swan said:
but then the foot of a horse has always been a mystery to me, which is why I listen to my farrier.

Alec.
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but how do you know if his advice is good or bad? Far better IMHO to educate oneself so that the foot is no longer a mystery. That way you have some idea if you are being given good advice or a load of *******s.
 
ycbm said:
Alec I am one of many people on this forum who, if they had listened to their farrier, would now have either a paddock ornament or no horse at all. Three horses in my case, dozens of others owned by other people. I know two horses that hunted the last meet of the season this weekend. In autumn last year one was prescribed wedge rocker shoes and given a 30% prognosis of ever turning to some level of work. The other owner was told everything that could be done had been and to bute the horse up until it could cope no longer and then retire or pts.

Both horses were taken barefoot and removed from all medication and are sound and evidence is fast growing that they are very likely to remain so. That last statement cannot be said of any soundness brought about by remedial shoeing.

The fact is that only the best farriers are up to date with what has been achieved with barefoot rehab of foot lame horses, and that they are unfortunately still currently in a minority.
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But surely this is down to the vets who prescribe the remedial shoes, bute etc as much if not more than the farrier who follows their requests, if the farrier is acting without a veterinary diagnosis and using bar shoes fitted without diagnosis/ xrays to guide them then they are in the wrong.
My farrier is more than happy for my horses to be barefoot and has disagreed with my previous vet several times over how to treat various horses, he prefers to leave them unshod but many vets prefer remedial shoes as the first option, it can be extremely difficult to go against veterinary advice unless you are very confident and have the experience to do so.
 
It's terribly difficult for people to go against their vets and farriers. It's very frightening taking all the responsibility yourself, especially if your horse doesn't find the process easy.

It's my experience that vets prescribe remedial shoes because farriers tell them it will help, but there are probably some the other way round too.

The problem is that we simply don't yet have enough vets or farriers who understand just hour much more effective barefoot rehabs are than their conventional treatments. . I can't help feeling that part of the problem is that both professions have so much revenue to lose if they do, and it's in no-one's financial interest to publish any research that would get the message out there.
 
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ycbm said:
I can't help feeling that part of the problem is that both professions have so much revenue to lose if they do, and it's in no-one's financial interest to publish any research that would get the message out there.
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surely not!
 
ycbm said:
It's terribly difficult for people to go against their vets and farriers. It's very frightening taking all the responsibility yourself, especially if your horse doesn't find the process easy.

It's my experience that vets prescribe remedial shoes because farriers tell them it will help, but there are probably some the other way round too.

The problem is that we simply don't yet have enough vets or farriers who understand just hour much more effective barefoot rehabs are than their conventional treatments. . I can't help feeling that part of the problem is that both professions have so much revenue to lose if they do, and it's in no-one's financial interest to publish any research that would get the message out there.
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Not in my experience......... we have a horse that went lame in April last year, had the vet, xrays etc and the vet recommended that given our particular environment and circumstances bar shoes and nine months rest on restricted turnout would be the best and quickest option, the alternative being shoes off and turn away completely for a year (but we do not have the facilities for this). The farrier then remedially shod the horse, using the xrays provided by the vet and said that he too would have said the same! Horse has now been brought back into work very slowly and went on a 14 mile fun-ride last weekend with no adverse effects. The vet and farrier both made recommendations based on the horse and the available facilities.
 
serenityjane said:
Not in my experience......... we have a horse that went lame in April last year, had the vet, xrays etc and the vet recommended that given our particular environment and circumstances bar shoes and nine months rest on restricted turnout would be the best and quickest option, the alternative being shoes off and turn away completely for a year (but we do not have the facilities for this). The farrier then remedially shod the horse, using the xrays provided by the vet and said that he too would have said the same! Horse has now been brought back into work very slowly and went on a 14 mile fun-ride last weekend with no adverse effects. The vet and farrier both made recommendations based on the horse and the available facilities.
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No one is suggesting shoes off and turning away for a year. Check out Rockley farm blog. It's anything but "turning away" and all about turning terrible feet around. How long has your horse been in these shoes and how long has he been in work and sound?
 
Not in my experience......... we have a horse that went lame in April last year, had the vet, xrays etc and the vet recommended that given our particular environment and circumstances bar shoes and nine months rest on restricted turnout would be the best and quickest option, the alternative being shoes off and turn away completely for a year (but we do not have the facilities for this). The farrier then remedially shod the horse, using the xrays provided by the vet and said that he too would have said the same! Horse has now been brought back into work very slowly and went on a 14 mile fun-ride last weekend with no adverse effects. The vet and farrier both made recommendations based on the horse and the available facilities.
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I'm not sure why you are saying it's not your experience that many vets and farriers don't know about barefoot rehab when your horse is shod and they thought the alternative was turning away, (which is not a barefoot rehab but probably still had a better chance of long term success than what they have done.)

There are many horses which go into bar shoes and stay sound. Unfortunately, there are also very many that don't, and for horses which went into them because they were too lame to work, the number which don't come sound is very high, and the number which come sound but don't stay sound long term or stay sound only on a lower workload than they should be capable of is higher still.

No-one can claim it's always easy, and I know people who've had to make big changes to get their horse the right environment. But it is by far and away the best chance of long term full work on all surfaces soundness in a foot lame horse.


Will you come back in a year and tell us how your horse is doing? With luck, he'll be one of the ones who stay sound. If he isn't, we'll be happy to help.
 
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Incidentally Serenity Jane, , if your vet and farrier had a clue about barefoot rehab, you could possibly have achieved a sound horse in the first three to four months of the nine months rest and restricted turnout your horse had in the stables where he now is, without resting him at all. Though initially you'd have got pretty fit yourself (or someone would) with all the hand walking it might have taken to achieve a flat, or preferably heel first, landing before he was ok to ride.

I'm genuinely sorry you weren't better advised, and given a proper choice to make even if you had still chosen the same option.
 
paddy555 said:
but how do you know if his advice is good or bad? …….. .
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When the evidence is that the horse is now sound in the case in question. Don't misunderstand me, I'm all for the informed owner, and I have on occasions disagreed with a professional, but generally and when it comes to the foot of the horse, I consider that even the most experienced equine vets will turn to a skilled and competent farrier for advice. The other important point, of course is that specifically with feet, it would be rare for any action taken to have an immediate effect, the problem being that the foot of the horse is such a slow growing 'substance'(?:)), that the results of any work done can all so often take weeks to reach the goals of the owner and the professionals.

I understand your point as to who do we listen to, but I suppose that we have no alternative but place our trust in someone, and for me that would be the man (or woman for the sake of fairness!) who knows more than I do. Feet are a ticklish subject, but having read missyclare's post, I'd come away believing that she knew exactly what she was talking about.

Alec.

Ets. The one person who I probably wouldn't listen to would be the zealot who being qualified as neither a vet or a farrier, contradicts qualified advice maintaining that 'they know best'.
 
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Alec Swan said:
Ets. The one person who I probably wouldn't listen to would be the zealot who being qualified as neither a vet or a farrier, contradicts qualified advice maintaining that 'they know best'.
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Even when those people, and they number in the hundreds all over the country, including one who does seven at a time, achieve results which they have been told by those qualified vets and farriers cannot be achieved?
 
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Have you looked at Rockley Alec, are you including them in the list of folk you wouldn't listen to over a farrier/vet?

Vets don't know everything. Sometimes the owner can know more about the condition than the vet. I have yet to meet a vet who knows more about PSSM than I do, it's my specialist subject and hardly known in the UK so why would they know more than me. They have all been pleased I've taken the initiative to educate myself. Indeed it's saved my horse's life probably as several have recommended things to help which contain ingredients which could kill her.
 
ycbm said:
Incidentally Serenity Jane, , if your vet and farrier had a clue about barefoot rehab, you could possibly have achieved a sound horse in the first three to four months of the nine months rest and restricted turnout your horse had in the stables where he now is, without resting him at all. Though initially you'd have got pretty fit yourself (or someone would) with all the hand walking it might have taken to achieve a flat, or preferably heel first, landing before he was ok to ride.

I'm genuinely sorry you weren't better advised, and given a proper choice to make even if you had still chosen the same option.
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Horse had a soft tissue injury nerve blocked to his hoof, no bony changes were shown on xray, shod he was 3/10's lame, barefoot he was much much more lame, he was sound within days of the bar shoes going on-so since July last year (fronts only), he has always had a 'heel first landing', he is not stabled and has had 9 months of constant movement in his own area, but no cantering or looning around. By resting I meant unridden. Soft tissue injuries can take up to a year to heal and sometimes never do. He was worked in hand for 4 weeks before he was ridden and the riding has been slowly and gradually introduced. Yes, it is early days but looking good so far. He is currently hacking for an hour about three times a week and doing a longer weekend ride, he has also been in the school.
 
FfionWinnie said:
Have you looked at Rockley Alec, are you including them in the list of folk you wouldn't listen to over a farrier/vet?

Vets don't know everything. Sometimes the owner can know more about the condition than the vet. I have yet to meet a vet who knows more about PSSM than I do, it's my specialist subject and hardly known in the UK so why would they know more than me. They have all been pleased I've taken the initiative to educate myself. Indeed it's saved my horse's life probably as several have recommended things to help which contain ingredients which could kill her.
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Yes, and thank you. I've just read it and it's good to see that progress has been made, BUT, one success from either side of the argument doesn't prove a point, or the opinion or eventual outcome, in my view. Where one thing works for one horse, it won't for another, and again that refers to either system.

I agree with you and have listened to diagnosis and prognosis efforts by vets and wondered at their thoughts! There are also a great many cases where the owner refuses to accept veterinary advice, and to the point of rank stupidity and then they pay the price for their obstinacy. There's one on-going case where the vet gave a diagnosis, recommended PTS, but that was unthinkable, the insurance was soon eaten up along with a staggering £10k of the owners savings, and the owner then started a donation page in an effort to keep the horse alive. The owner is now considering suing the vet, but on what grounds, I'm unsure! Despite the best that Newmarket can do, the horse remains unridable.

Barefoot or shod? There are so many variables, which would include the competency of both the vet, the bf trimmer or farrier, and the owner, that the argument will be never ending. I remain of the opinion though, that to discard the offered diagnosis and treatment from experienced vets or farriers, in the case of the complexities of a horse's foot, should be an option which is given serious thought.

Alec.
 
one success from either side of the argument doesn't prove a point,
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One? You did realise that Rockley has been doing nearly thirty a year for the last six years, did you Alec? And that their results far outstrip the success rate of any conventional treatment? Even though many of them have already had the conventional treatment and are still lame. And that insurance companies pay for it? And that their success rate is replicated by smaller yards, good farriers and trimmers, and individuals all over the country?
 
Alec, I'm surprised at the discussion we are now having because it's about two years since this forum in general recognised the superior results of barefoot rehab and stopped questioning its efficacy and started talking about how to manage the really difficult ones. If you go back through previous threads, you would learn a lot. There are also courses if you wish to learn more about feet. I found attending a foot dissection utterly amazing. There are some very good books and online articles too. You could do a lot worse than start with the US ex farrier Pete Ramey. Rooney's research is also fascinating. I was lucky enough to attend a seminar by Bob Bowker as well as read his fascinating research.

I'll leave you with one statistic. The published figure for recovery to full work from collateral ligament strain with conventional treatment is 20%. The recovery rate for horses with that injury which have been to Rockley is 95%, which includes many horses (in the early days it was most of them, but increasingly it's a first line of treatment now) which have already had unsuccesful conventional treatment.

I hope that information helps you understand why this forum tends to encourage people to look outside conventional treatment for foot lameness. .Barefoot rehabs can be difficult in many ways and we don't advise it lightly.
 
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