Pinch boots, rapping and other forms of SJ torture

Withholding water is used on horses that are out if control full of themselves, the next day due to dehydration they will be more controllable, it's not a punishment in the same way as other methods. Still cruelty obviously!

I know a dressage person competing at a high level who's also a pony club instructor. I also know they've punished a horse after a bad session at home by cross tying it and repeatedly throwing water at its head. What that is trying get to achieve is unfathomable
 
I find it unfathomable but I'm glad to say I see things at the other end of the spectrum that also work... A few years ago I was helping a friend at a biggish dressage comp. I'd watched one of the big stars warm up and their horse was going ok. It was the horses early days of Grand Prix . The match were going in so I went to watch ... The first half of their freestyle was as you'd expect from a rider of this calibre... Complicated, technical stuff, and then something (nothing I could see obvious) spooked the horse just a half side step nothing dramatic but I watched the rider change his riding instantly. Not as I thought might happen to ' blinking we'll get on with it' but to ' ok you're stressed let's make this easy' the contact was softened and the routine basically cahnged to long sweeping half passes with no quick changes of direction ... At the time my posse and I thought he was a bit too soft... I am very happy to announce that history has deemed me oh so wrong.
 
I know I'm really soft and a wuss but this thread has made me sob.

I really struggle to understand this level of hatred towards a horse, or any animal for that matter, that would make you want to torture it.
 
LD&S said:
I know I'm really soft and a wuss but this thread has made me sob.

I really struggle to understand this level of hatred towards a horse, or any animal for that matter, that would make you want to torture it.
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The type of people who do this type of thing are not right in the head.

Purposely inflicting pain or distress on any animal is totally sociopathic.
 
AShetlandBitMeOnce said:
See, this I really don't understand (not that I do any other). This is just pure, mindless anger. The horse lives in there here and now, you cannot punish them for things that they had done hours ago. They would never understand why they were being 'punished' so why do it, it won't better any future performance? Just cruel.

I am not sure what false groundlines is, or rapping (hitting back legs as they jump?) but I don't understand any of it. My enjoyment in horses comes number 1 from the partnership, second to being the best in anything.
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Just to inform a false ground line would be one put under the top rail so the horse gets too close and bashes itself
rapping, front or back, depends on the horse.

As anything when you are talking big money or even just your source of income partnership isn't always on the top of the list.
 
I hate to imagine what would happen to my horse if he was owned by these people. He could be talented in jumping but while he can jump high he is not overly neat with his front legs and hits them off the poles a lot. I wouldn't dream of putting pinch boots on him to make him pick up his legs. The pro showjumper that did jump him said its not a big issue and he would eventually learn. He hasn't jumped a lot but the few times he has he is better and he managed to bounce through a set of raised poles without knocking any of them so he is getting more coordinated. But I left him to grow I didn't force results.

I think itshorrible to see the young horses being over worked when they haven't developed fully. Mine is still growing and he is 7. How broken would he be by 10 if pushed too much at a young age?
 
SpringArising said:
The type of people who do this type of thing are not right in the head.

Purposely inflicting pain or distress on any animal is totally sociopathic.
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Purposely OR not (and I believe most cruelty is inflicted through a lovely combination of ignorance and laziness), there's too much of it about.
 
SpringArising said:
The type of people who do this type of thing are not right in the head.

Purposely inflicting pain or distress on any animal is totally sociopathic.
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The word torture makes this subject emotive a lot of things some think should not happen are used by some who understand what they are doing without being detrimental to the horse. It does not make it acceptable for inexperienced hands and to be honest there is nothing to be gained by frightening a horse. I would be interested in knowing how many condenming them actually know the theory behind 'pinch boots' and whether they actually inflict pain or work in a more subtle way.
Where do you stand on riding a horse as to some that would seem just as bad and may describe that as torture, Just riding a horse is alien to them and causes them injury which would not happen in their natural state.
 
popsdosh said:
The word torture makes this subject emotive a lot of things some think should not happen are used by some who understand what they are doing without being detrimental to the horse. It does not make it acceptable for inexperienced hands and to be honest there is nothing to be gained by frightening a horse. I would be interested in knowing how many condenming them actually know the theory behind 'pinch boots' and whether they actually inflict pain or work in a more subtle way.
Where do you stand on riding a horse as to some that would seem just as bad and may describe that as torture, Just riding a horse is alien to them and causes them injury which would not happen in their natural state.
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I'll hold my hands up and admit my understanding of pinch boots is limited more or less to the description provided by another poster earlier on this thread. Please do enlighten us if there's more to add.

As an additional comment, just because someone does something "professionally" does not mean they do it expertly or with due care and consideration.
 
I'll be honest, I never had too much issue with pinch boots, no worse than a strong bit, only on the back legs and on for minimal time to have the most effect.
 
I've not seen many sj yards but seen one where they clearly adored the horses, never saw anything untoward....another yard where I could imagine rapping and so on being used.....
Outdated and deliberately nasty...a novice rider accidentally catching a horses mouth is just that -accidental. Rapping and so on is a premeditated act of causing pain to the horse.
 
Years ago I walked out of a job on a showjumping yard when the guy running it wanted to rap his horse (is that even the right way to say it?!)

Told him to stick his £6.00 an hour I didn't need it. Then survived the winter eating beans on toast but at least I kept my morals
 
There is one common denominator on here and that is that most of the posters are not show Jumpers or indeed dressage riders or eventers!

Can I suggest that the average amateur riders lack of proper riding ability is actually also cruel - the lack of a good seat meaning that their balance is all over the place thus twisting their horses back, also meaning that their hands cannot stay still so that their horses's mouth is compromised, the lack of ability to keep a good canter rhythm to a fence and keep their lower leg 'on' the horse, their lack of ability to go with the horse over the jump and so catch it in the mouth with their hands and be behind the movement on landing. I could go on for hours!

I have seen far more cruelty (should I substitute 'torture' here?) across the board at the bottom end of the riding network than from the professionals - yes of course there are always those who try to take short cuts and there is no excuse for them but there is also no excuse for not learning to ride properly.
 
ester said:
The difference is intentionality. Might not make it ok but still the difference.
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See this is the issue I have with this thread .Because a showjumper does it it is torture!!!! Where is the line drawn as some of these techniques are no more than extensions of what has happened from year dot with horses. Any form of aid used when riding is designed to cause a degree of discomfort to the horse to help it comply with what we require it to do and all of them are wrong if used in the wrong way unintentional can apply just the same to some of these so called 'Torture ' techniques as for a muppet riding in a poor way. I can think of occassions when any boots put on badly by an inexperienced rider are likely to do a lot more harm than pinch boots ever would with an experienced trainer yet one is ok because of ignorance. Since when has ignorance been a defence for abuse!
 
It hasn't, neither has money.

I don't think either are right or ok or any more wrong than the other, but I also never think that other bad stuff happening precludes the discussion of specifics elsewhere.
 
Us dear old amateur rides could ride in the most shocking and cruel way, how would we really know , we lack the ability (according to some) to tell or we are too lazy to do anything about it! On top of that we are taught by people who know nothing. However, if we are indeed that bad, that ignorant and that unbalanced, the truth of the matter is , even if we cruely attempt to jump our poor long suffering horses it's bound to be very low , very intermittent and unlikely to cause the pain and sufferering a " professional " or a " would be professional " could inflict over an extend period training for the show ring. I prefer to believe that most people, professional or amateur get in to horses because they have a passion for the animal. They strive to be the best they can within their ability. I am a weekend rider, even after forty years I know where my ability is and where my strengths and weaknesses lay, I do strive to be the best I can within my limited talent and limited time and I choose to belive that my animals are not too cruelly ridden. I chose to believe that most people are about the same. However I also acknowledge that there are people out there for who the winning is more important then the welfare of the animal. I include in that so called amateurs and so called professionals. Also I include those who are prepared to take short cuts, rather then using appropriate training methods. I also believe that it's important not to Tar everyone with the same brush be they professional or amateur .
 
I think there's a huge difference between someone unintentionally causing pain in the process of learning to better the horses experience as well as their own, and someone intentionally causing pain or discomfort in the process of earning money...
 
ester said:
It hasn't, neither has money.

I don't think either are right or ok or any more wrong than the other, but I also never think that other bad stuff happening precludes the discussion of specifics elsewhere.
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Im not condoning anything but im not sure money is the driver for this either. In my experience most of these schooling methods get out of hand when the inexperienced people start using them as a short cut because they have seen a pro use them to correct an issue in a horse . To me having seen Rapping( not as its portrayed) used by some very experienced household names back in the past in controlled settings it is no worse than dressage riders schooling with long whips its all in the degree and to be frank the lower down the tree of experience you go riders do not understand the subtleties that are involved and thats when it becomes abuse to me.
 
Drzoidberg2 said:
I think there's a huge difference between someone unintentionally causing pain in the process of learning to better the horses experience as well as their own, and someone intentionally causing pain or discomfort in the process of earning money...
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Surely pain is pain and neither is acceptable!
 
FfionWinnie said:
Disappointing how novice riders learning to ride is comparable to some to top riders deliberately inflicting pain on a horse.
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Im not condoning it but where do you draw the line neither should be acceptable ! Just because somebody is a novice rider does not make it ok. We have all seen it thats why I would rather come back as a showjumping horse than in a riding school!
 
Absolutely but learning to ride is about improving the process for both horse and rider, so the reason pain or discomfort is caused goes away as the rider learns to be more correct. Also, a rider learning to ride under correct supervision will in my opinion cause a lot less damage than methods that force a horse to lift its legs or carry it's head in a certain position.

As a horse trained using methods such as rapping/ pinch boots or rollkur in dressage progress, the results desired increase so the "training" increases... It's a vicious circle, not comparable to a rider learning to ride under supervision.
 
Drzoidberg2 said:
Absolutely but learning to ride is about improving the process for both horse and rider, so the reason pain or discomfort is caused goes away as the rider learns to be more correct. Also, a rider learning to ride under correct supervision will in my opinion cause a lot less damage than methods that force a horse to lift its legs or carry it's head in a certain position.

As a horse trained using methods such as rapping/ pinch boots or rollkur in dressage progress, the results desired increase so the "training" increases... It's a vicious circle, not comparable to a rider learning to ride under supervision.
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So what do pinch boots do ? I would suggest badly fitted boots of any sort will do more damage to the horse!
 
Drzoidberg2 said:
I think there's a huge difference between someone unintentionally causing pain in the process of learning to better the horses experience as well as their own, and someone intentionally causing pain or discomfort in the process of earning money...
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Not to the horse there isn't .
 
popsdosh said:
Im not condoning it but where do you draw the line neither should be acceptable ! Just because somebody is a novice rider does not make it ok. We have all seen it thats why I would rather come back as a showjumping horse than in a riding school!
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I didn't say being a novice rider makes it ok but it's not a comparable situation. The novice rider will indeed make the life of the horse they are riding perhaps less than perfect for the first few lessons in each pace but it's up to the professional - the instructor, to minimise the effect of the novice rider on the horse.

For instance my daughter is 7 and has just been given an absolutely superstar eventing pony. He often takes a stride out and will clear everything by miles, no pinch boots needed! Initially she got left behind on nearly every fence.

I could have continued allowing her to sock him in the chops, being as she is 7 and a tiny skinny thing and he is 14.1 it's debatable if he even noticed. Or I could as I did do get her to hold the neck strap, got some elastic rein inserts and most importantly paid a large amount in tuition to a very good SJ coach for lots of lessons to train the problem away. So the getting left behind part of their relationship lasted a very short time.

That scenario is not comparable to me buying her a pony with a lazy hind end and me deliberately inducing pain or fear to the pony to get it jumping cleanly when I could instead train it.

I earn my living as an animal trainer, I don't need to be a top show jumper to understand the learning process for a horse.

In my experience short cuts don't work - they might work for some animals some of the time -usually a short time. However, if you want to turn out every animal you train to the highest standard it can achieve, then you need to put in the hours of training. Things like I mentioned in the title need expert timing and knowledge. Being a top show jumper does not mean you necessarily have that expert knowledge and plenty of horses will suffer rather than learn the desired outcome.

Lastly I am sure if we could ask him, my horse would chose his new life over his old life, even if I do get left behind now and again!
 
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Drzoidberg2 said:
I think there's a huge difference between someone unintentionally causing pain in the process of learning to better the horses experience as well as their own, and someone intentionally causing pain or discomfort in the process of earning money...
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I doubt the horse sees the difference!
 
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