Pinch boots, rapping and other forms of SJ torture

No, it's about not about whether someone is a pro or an amateur, it's not about "inflicting pain in all sorts of ways", it's about using a technique PROPERLY, with restraint, timing, and above all knowledge. Cruelty occurs when something is done improperly, crudely, spitefully, ignorantly or in any way that abuses the animal.
 
rachk89 said:
Popsdosh is. They think pinch boots and rapping is fine.
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Dont think I have !! However I have pointed out that many things are done to horses that are alien to them and cause discomfort many which normal riders seem to accept as its not intended. I have said many times I do not condone mis treatment of horses . I think its all to do with intention of the action. For example a rider goes into the ring with over tight boots on the effect is exactly the same as using pinch boots however you would deem one acceptable and one not ,Whats the difference. One of the reasons pinch boots are not banned is because nobody can distinguish them from normal fetlock boots easily, weighted boots were banned because it was easy to set a limit and police it.Rapping is a very different kettl;e of fish and has been born out there are many interpretations of how its carried out and I merely said the method I have seen is nothing like FW describes or others so maybe my views are tempered by what I have seen.
So please dont accuse me of things I have not said I have chosen my words very carefully!
 
Who said overtight boots were acceptable? Just because you cannot tell they are tight? I don't deem tight boots acceptable and I presume there is a reason for the boot rules for young horses- the specifics of which are to ensure one cannot over tighten?
 
ester said:
Who said overtight boots were acceptable? Just because you cannot tell they are tight? I don't deem tight boots acceptable and I presume there is a reason for the boot rules for young horses- the specifics of which are to ensure one cannot over tighten?
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The poster I was replying to has stated many times previously that unintentional misdemeanours were ok and an acceptable part of the learning process and I indeed all along have tried to say they are no different.I am actually with you, and would rather see a no boot rule for show jumping as it would bring things back to basics and no little advantage could be arrived at to the detriment of the horse the game has been cleaned up no end from where it was a few decades ago why not go that bit further.
 
i was on a yard as a kid where they had dead hedgehogs nailed to a pole and used it for horses who were 'lazy' with their legs.
 
popsdosh said:
Dead sheep the ultimate achievement for a sheep!! Im sure you will agree :-)
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As our neighbouring farmer says 'sheep were born to die'

Fwiw horses do have to be far more careful these days, hopefully mainly achieved through breeding and kind training. Poles used to be heavy wooden things, hexagonal or sometimes square, these days if you breathe too hard on them they drop.
 
You've provoked me into it. Sheep are not born to die at all. Acting normally when they are ill is their only line of defence against predators (or farmers). Thus by the time they admit they are ill they are very ill. Or indeed dead.

Much easier to notice illness in a horse or a cow than a sheep for most.

I nearly lost a contract lambing once for a real old curmudgeon of a farmer because when he took me round the ewes there was a dead one. I said that it was typical, meaning, of all the days to have a dead animal it was typical to have someone you don't know in tow. He had taken it to mean that I thought it was typical for sheep to die! Not a good attitude for a shepherd. Luckily he listened to my explanation!
 
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The Vet school put forward a similar but subtly different reasoning . They said of all animals sheep had one of the highest thresholds to stress so when ill it is to late by the time they show symptoms. That doesnt account for the suicidal ones though where the shepherd always have to be one step ahead of the sheep to out think them,Im sure we both have those funny anecdotes!
 
popsdosh said:
Rapping is a very different kettl;e of fish and has been born out there are many interpretations of how its carried out and I merely said the method I have seen is nothing like FW describes or others so maybe my views are tempered by what I have seen.
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I am sorry to be thick, and I am asking because I don't understand what you mean, not to try and make any sort of point, but please will you describe the method you have seen used? There are lots of posts on this thread, so sorry if I have missed it!
 
Micropony said:
I am sorry to be thick, and I am asking because I don't understand what you mean, not to try and make any sort of point, but please will you describe the method you have seen used? There are lots of posts on this thread, so sorry if I have missed it!
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I wont mention names because that would not be fair . I was shown maybe 30 years ago by a current top rider.

A cane or in certain circumstances a rolled up lunge whip were used. used in a way that it was hidden behind the top rail and as the horse jumped just slightly raised so as it came above the top bar and the horses back legs rubbed against it to create the sensation in the horse that their legs were not high enoughthe skill in this is in the timing. At no time was any attempt made to actually strike the horses legs in any way and thats what I am basing my replies on . I am fully aware other practices go on under the term 'Rapping' and I am as opposed to them as the next man! However the degree of discomfort in what I just described is more down to the person performing it and their skill as opposed to any person doing it for the wrong reasons. All the time we have showjumping there will always be people trying to go that one step to far to gain advantage
 
popsdosh said:
I wont mention names because that would not be fair . I was shown maybe 30 years ago by a current top rider.

A cane or in certain circumstances a rolled up lunge whip were used. used in a way that it was hidden behind the top rail and as the horse jumped just slightly raised so as it came above the top bar and the horses back legs rubbed against it to create the sensation in the horse that their legs were not high enoughthe skill in this is in the timing. At no time was any attempt made to actually strike the horses legs in any way and thats what I am basing my replies on . I am fully aware other practices go on under the term 'Rapping' and I am as opposed to them as the next man! However the degree of discomfort in what I just described is more down to the person performing it and their skill as opposed to any person doing it for the wrong reasons. All the time we have showjumping there will always be people trying to go that one step to far to gain advantage
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Thank you, that does help me understand.
 
FfionWinnie said:
It's why I like Shaun the sheep. Reminds me of my life. Less so now I've got shot of the Shetland sheep!!
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Yes we have muppets around here who get a few Soays or Herdwick and ring up and say 'why cant I keep them In' and I reply 'A rifle is your friend'
 
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FfionWinnie said:
You've provoked me into it. Sheep are not born to die at all. Acting normally when they are ill is their only line of defence against predators (or farmers). Thus by the time they admit they are ill they are very ill. Or indeed dead.

Much easier to notice illness in a horse or a cow than a sheep for most.

I nearly lost a contract lambing once for a real old curmudgeon of a farmer because when he took me round the ewes there was a dead one. I said that it was typical, meaning, of all the days to have a dead animal it was typical to have someone you don't know in tow. He had taken it to mean that I thought it was typical for sheep to die! Not a good attitude for a shepherd. Luckily he listened to my explanation!
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They don't have to be ill to seek creative ways to die, though, do they FW? All the sheep farmers around me laugh at how suicidal sheep are. Heads stuck through fences, stuck on their back in a dip in the grass, stuck between a stone wall and the wire fence six inches in front of it, stuck with a leg twisted between two strands of top wiring, out on a busy A road, rams that head butt each other and break their necks, lambs with a mother that won't feed them, male lambs with a mother that will only feed females, lambs with a mother that bit off its foot instead of the umbilical cord .......

I'm sure there are more, but those are the ones I've personally seen living in sheep country.

Sheep just love dying!
 
popsdosh said:
Yes we have muppets around here who get a few Soays or Herdwick and ring up and say 'why cant I keep them In' and I reply 'A rifle is your friend'
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My friend thought breeding 'Erdwicks would be fun and profitable. It's cost her a fortune to fence them in!
 
ycbm said:
They don't have to be ill to seek creative ways to die, though, do they FW? All the sheep farmers around me laugh at how suicidal sheep are. Heads stuck through fences, stuck on their back in a dip in the grass, stuck between a stone wall and the wire fence six inches in front of it, stuck with a leg twisted between two strands of top wiring, out on a busy A road, rams that head butt each other and break their necks, lambs with a mother that won't feed them, male lambs with a mother that will only feed females, lambs with a mother that bit off its foot instead of the umbilical cord .......

I'm sure there are more, but those are the ones I've personally seen living in sheep country.

Sheep just love dying!
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Yep commercial sheep breeds generally aren't fit for purpose. Wonder who bred them to be unfit for purpose...

You won't find a primitive sheep getting into those situations.

Not just cos it's run off. :o
 
I find most of the people who use those sorts of gimmicks are the "almost but not quite big" trainers that are essentially cheating to try and win; you see it less at upper levels where they have the money to go out and buy something else rather than rush a horse's training or mash it into something it doesn't want to do. I've known people who use electrified spurs, and all sorts. My trainer in TX got one whose brain was FRIED by one of these people. You could school XC and natural fences all day long but the minute you started laying out white/colored poles on the ground and building a grid or SJ style course she'd just melt down.

My trainer used to try to get my horse to rub a pole before a class by raising the jump until she did, but gave up when she wouldn't touch it- no sense warming up over 1.25m when you're only jumping a meter class. XD
 
I haven't read all of this,and while I don't agree with rapping, tying up cruelty etc I don't see the issue with pinch boots.
Used properly and most efficiently, They are worn in the warm up for 1 or 2 jumps, to sharpen up the back end then took off.
I compete all over the country, and while I agree some things that some people may do behind closed doors is truly hideous, it's a minority. I jump age classes- but my horses don't do a lot before hand jumping wise, its just experience.
This horse had done 1 small training show pre this show, here he is jumping 4yos.

14446155_699489950204964_1474563583940472367_n.jpg

This one jumping 5yos, again only had done a handful of shows. Never been rapped or anything, naturally talented and properly produced
13445776_650018441818782_5171228670124326795_n.jpg


I think inexperience people ruin horses too young by doing to much training and drilling. All my horses jump age classes and NEVER have had an issue.
 
ljohnsonsj said:
I haven't read all of this,and while I don't agree with rapping, tying up cruelty etc I don't see the issue with pinch boots.
Used properly and most efficiently, They are worn in the warm up for 1 or 2 jumps, to sharpen up the back end then took off.
I compete all over the country, and while I agree some things that some people may do behind closed doors is truly hideous, it's a minority. I jump age classes- but my horses don't do a lot before hand jumping wise, its just experience.
This horse had done 1 small training show pre this show, here he is jumping 4yos.

14446155_699489950204964_1474563583940472367_n.jpg

This one jumping 5yos, again only had done a handful of shows. Never been rapped or anything, naturally talented and properly produced
13445776_650018441818782_5171228670124326795_n.jpg


I think inexperience people ruin horses too young by doing to much training and drilling. All my horses jump age classes and NEVER have had an issue.
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I though it was age/young horse classes that they were banned in? Surely that would include the warm up?
 
Goldenstar said:
It certainly teaches them to be afraid of people in the ring .
When H arrived he would bronc if some one on the ground went near a fence it was seriously anti social it took years to gain his confidence .
It did not make him careful it made him anxious because he simply could not work out how to solve the problem because his canter was not good enough .
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I know a couple of horses/ponies on my yard who became absolutely terrified of the sound of a pole hitting the ground, to the point if they touched a pole they would rocket off. both had been under the instruction of one particular coach.

Generally he would use really heavy poles for the top and not put boots on lazy legged animals, but he was well known for rapping/poling even with the 15kg poles (when most of our poles are light plastic practice poles).
 
merlinsquest said:
She didn't say she used them on her young horses but said she competes a lot & explained how the boots should be used correctly
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This. I don't find they really benefit young horses much at all to be honest- young horses tend to over jump due to inexperience anyway. However older horses who are often cock sure of themselves and can get a bit lacksy I think they do help.
 
I think the difference is moral. unknowingly or accidentally inflicting pain (eg getting left behind at a jump, learning to do rising trot etc) to achieve something is different morally to deliberately planning and inflicting it(planning to rap your horse or pin it in tight draw reins for hours or whatever).
for dramas sake its a bit like the difference of manslaughter to murder.
the victim/ horse doesn't necessarily know the difference but the perpetrator does. and that is the difference to me.
 
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