Pinch boots, rapping and other forms of SJ torture

[FfionWinnie]

Ive got some Herdwicks - they are the only ones so far that haven’t escaped!!

I bet you have fences and not dykes. If you have dykes and herdwicks your life is a living hell. Similarly bad if you have soays without rabbit netting buried under the ground and meshed gates

 

[ester]

This. I don't find they really benefit young horses much at all to be honest- young horses tend to over jump due to inexperience anyway. However older horses who are often cock sure of themselves and can get a bit lacksy I think they do help.

Thanks that's why I was clarifying as was a bit confused as to why it related to you specifically doing age classes that was all given that is the one place they aren't permitted, it seemed a bit incongrous in my reading but that is probably because I was on the phone.

It was my understanding that yes, they don't work for long because of habituation but some people then opt not to use them in the warm up but then put them on for in the ring or is that not correct?

 

[ester]

We had 8 herdwicks in a fenced and ditched paddock across the road from us, totalling oh about a tenth of an acre. They were purchased because they couldn't get the purebreds the daughter wanted at the time (they have normal sheep too). After getting out a couple of times previously one dog, 3 experienced people trying to load them, nope! A local knitting lady was the only person pleased they existed I think .

 

[sky1000]

When I was reading this thread Black Beauty came to mind. There's a lot in there about appearance and arrogance but also well meaning ignorance causing problems.

My view of herdwicks is that they are delicious.

 

[gunnergundog]

It was my understanding that yes, they don't work for long because of habituation QUOTE]

Precisely the same as proprioceptive bracelets............so should all chartered physios be banned from using them? They work on stimulation principles, same as other techniques discussed above.

 

[FfionWinnie]

We had 8 herdwicks in a fenced and ditched paddock across the road from us, totalling oh about a tenth of an acre. They were purchased because they couldn't get the purebreds the daughter wanted at the time (they have normal sheep too). After getting out a couple of times previously one dog, 3 experienced people trying to load them, nope! A local knitting lady was the only person pleased they existed I think .

My friend got some for training young dogs. They didn't like this job so would just hop the 6ft walls any time they heard her car coming down the lane. I'm surprised the knitting lady liked them they are better for carpets.

Funnily enough don't see them up here often yet there are two in a field with some texels near me. I did think wonder if they are supposed to be in there as it's not a very well fenced field!

 

[popsdosh]

The reason they dont stay on is their effect diminishes within 10 mins as they work on pressure points in theory.
Do none of you accept that the rider deliberately dropping a horse into a fence in a warm up may be doing a lot more damage than being schooled in a more controlled way . I SJ steward at BE events and it is very common to see horses deliberately given an impossible shot at a warm up fence but nobody seems to care IMO the horse is more likely to be caused suffering by this .If you say anything the TD or whoever just says we cant prove anything and these things happen funny they had just took its boots off.

 

[popsdosh]

My friend got some for training young dogs. They didn't like this job so would just hop the 6ft walls any time they heard her car coming down the lane. I'm surprised the knitting lady liked them they are better for carpets.

Funnily enough don't see them up here often yet there are two in a field with some texels near me. I did think wonder if they are supposed to be in there as it's not a very well fenced field!

No they make better Rugs!!

Sheep farmers round here keep small numbers as it gives them something to talk about in the PUB They hold a census once a month with a prize for the one with the least as they are so mobile.

yes not sheep but we have feral cattle here . The so called cattle manager at the local grazing project went down to Exmoor and bought a group of Newly weaned Belted Galloway calves to graze the electric fenced grazing . They duly arrived and they dropped the ramp to let them straight out to graze . As their A***s disappeared that was the last they saw of them!! Some have met their maker( and very tasty they were) and a few turn up in other herds for day or so before moving on.

 

[NiceNeverNaughty]

lol we have dykes with a couple of lines of wire fence as well.. so far they’ve stayed in and Ive worked my dog on them ok. They seem to heavy to put in much effort for anything ?! Prior to that the blackies I had were out on a daily basis!! And lets just not speak about my experience with Hebrideans!

 

[fburton]

Precisely the same as proprioceptive bracelets............so should all chartered physios be banned from using them? They work on stimulation principles, same as other techniques discussed above.

Sorry, you lost me there. How do they work? If anyone can point me to a good ref to explain this, I'd be very grateful.

 

[ester]

It was my understanding that yes, they don't work for long because of habituation

Precisely the same as proprioceptive bracelets............so should all chartered physios be banned from using them? They work on stimulation principles, same as other techniques discussed above.

Err where did I say that was wrong?? Oh yes I didn't, just stated a scientific fact as I often do!

 

[ljohnsonsj]

Thanks that's why I was clarifying as was a bit confused as to why it related to you specifically doing age classes that was all given that is the one place they aren't permitted, it seemed a bit incongrous in my reading but that is probably because I was on the phone.

It was my understanding that yes, they don't work for long because of habituation but some people then opt not to use them in the warm up but then put them on for in the ring or is that not correct?

I'm sure it varies massively how people use them, I find the most common practice is to use them in the warm up to 'wake them up' then after a few jumps they're being much more useful with there back end, so no need to keep them on as they are no longer effective/ the horse gets used to the feeling of it.

As I said, I personally don't use them, no need to as I've young horses whom are naturally talented/ inexperienced so jump big anyway,but I don't have an issue with the boots and don't find them cruel unlike rapping etc.

I referenced the young horses as it seems people who don't do much competition wise ( maybe I'm generalising here, I don't mean too) Have a lot to say about young horses doing these classes and how it instantly 'ruins' them and 'they won't be jumping into their teens' which is just incorrect and gets quite annoying tbh. I think they assume the horses are hammered and drilled every day at home to make them this way, when truth is many aren't doing much at home and in-between shows other than jumping age classes at premier shows, 9/10 of these horses can go out with not much experience at all and jump well, because they're bred for the job and are usually under pro's or very experienced riders who fill the horse with the confidence it needs.

 

[Caol Ila]

I really don't think arguing that lots of horses experience pain when ridden by novices making novice mistakes is much of a defense for rapping (which I always assumed was the practice of whacking a horse's legs with a bamboo pole as it went over a jump), but any thread on any forum where someone decries an abusive practice at the top levels of any equestrian sport always seems to end up with posters saying "Amateurs abuse their horses too!" As if that's some kind of mitigation. Read any rollkur thread, and someone will always be kvetching about people at the lowest levels of dressage who yank their horses' heads in. Does one really mitigate the other? Does it have anything whatsoever to do with other? I don't think so.

That's like starting a thread complaining about armed robbery, and then someone arguing that we shouldn't be just talking about armed robbery and singling out armed robbers, because lots of people commit internet fraud as well. The most useless defense lawyer in the world would not be daft enough to argue that his client shouldn't be prosecuted because somewhere in the world, someone else has committed another totally unrelated crime.

 

[Wagtail]

I really don't think arguing that lots of horses experience pain when ridden by novices making novice mistakes is much of a defense for rapping (which I always assumed was the practice of whacking a horse's legs with a bamboo pole as it went over a jump), but any thread on any forum where someone decries an abusive practice at the top levels of any equestrian sport always seems to end up with posters saying "Amateurs abuse their horses too!" As if that's some kind of mitigation. Read any rollkur thread, and someone will always be kvetching about people at the lowest levels of dressage who yank their horses' heads in. Does one really mitigate the other? Does it have anything whatsoever to do with other? I don't think so.

That's like starting a thread complaining about armed robbery, and then someone arguing that we shouldn't be just talking about armed robbery and singling out armed robbers, because lots of people commit internet fraud as well. The most useless defense lawyer in the world would not be daft enough to argue that his client shouldn't be prosecuted because somewhere in the world, someone else has committed another totally unrelated crime.

Completely agree! This happens all the time.

 

[Shadowdancing]

I really don't think arguing that lots of horses experience pain when ridden by novices making novice mistakes is much of a defense for rapping (which I always assumed was the practice of whacking a horse's legs with a bamboo pole as it went over a jump), but any thread on any forum where someone decries an abusive practice at the top levels of any equestrian sport always seems to end up with posters saying "Amateurs abuse their horses too!" As if that's some kind of mitigation. Read any rollkur thread, and someone will always be kvetching about people at the lowest levels of dressage who yank their horses' heads in. Does one really mitigate the other? Does it have anything whatsoever to do with other? I don't think so.

That's like starting a thread complaining about armed robbery, and then someone arguing that we shouldn't be just talking about armed robbery and singling out armed robbers, because lots of people commit internet fraud as well. The most useless defense lawyer in the world would not be daft enough to argue that his client shouldn't be prosecuted because somewhere in the world, someone else has committed another totally unrelated crime.

Very true this.

 

[Micropony]

I really don't think arguing that lots of horses experience pain when ridden by novices making novice mistakes is much of a defense for rapping (which I always assumed was the practice of whacking a horse's legs with a bamboo pole as it went over a jump), but any thread on any forum where someone decries an abusive practice at the top levels of any equestrian sport always seems to end up with posters saying "Amateurs abuse their horses too!" As if that's some kind of mitigation. Read any rollkur thread, and someone will always be kvetching about people at the lowest levels of dressage who yank their horses' heads in. Does one really mitigate the other? Does it have anything whatsoever to do with other? I don't think so.

That's like starting a thread complaining about armed robbery, and then someone arguing that we shouldn't be just talking about armed robbery and singling out armed robbers, because lots of people commit internet fraud as well. The most useless defense lawyer in the world would not be daft enough to argue that his client shouldn't be prosecuted because somewhere in the world, someone else has committed another totally unrelated crime.

I don't remember reading a response from anyone that was suggesting that novice riders' mistakes made it okay for professionals to use unethical training techniques.

 

[popsdosh]

I don't remember reading a response from anyone that was suggesting that novice riders' mistakes made it okay for professionals to use unethical training techniques.

I dont either! however its how things get twisted. It was more to point out that horses get damaged in all sorts of ways with intent or not but the horse doesnt know the difference. Nobody can use it as an excuse IMO both are as bad as each other. Others obviously find it acceptable as long as you have no intent really!!

 

[FfionWinnie]

I dont either! however its how things get twisted. It was more to point out that horses get damaged in all sorts of ways with intent or not but the horse doesnt know the difference. Nobody can use it as an excuse IMO both are as bad as each other. Others obviously find it acceptable as long as you have no intent dream on.

You talk about twisting things and in the next few lines are doing the same yourself!

 

[Goldenstar]

No it's been pretty clear on the thread that some people think that pain inflicted is different because of intent of the person inflicting the discomfort .
Lots of us think there's no difference to the horse .
There is a difference to the human but that's not what we are talking about.

 

[fburton]

I dont either! however its how things get twisted. It was more to point out that horses get damaged in all sorts of ways with intent or not but the horse doesnt know the difference. Nobody can use it as an excuse IMO both are as bad as each other. Others obviously find it acceptable as long as you have no intent really!!

I think one kind of badness compounds another. It's bad if a horse is made to feel pain unnecessarily, but worse if there is also the intention to do it and a knowledge that it will happen.

 

[fburton]

No it's been pretty clear on the thread that some people think that pain inflicted is different because of intent of the person inflicting the discomfort .
Lots of us think there's no difference to the horse .
There is a difference to the human but that's not what we are talking about.

Why shouldn't we be talking about it? It's highly relevant, in my opinion. The fact that there's no difference to the horse isn't the only consideration. If that were the case, some sexual abuse of horses (for example) wouldn't actually be abuse on the grounds that "there is no difference to the horse". We can't simply take the perpetrator out of the equation (again, in my opinion).

 

[popsdosh]

Why shouldn't we be talking about it? It's highly relevant, in my opinion. The fact that there's no difference to the horse isn't the only consideration. If that were the case, some sexual abuse of horses (for example) wouldn't actually be abuse on the grounds that "there is no difference to the horse". We can't simply take the perpetrator out of the equation (again, in my opinion).

So in essence what you are saying is and i am not talking about rapping here . Its ok to discomfort a horse for the benefit of the human learning experience but not to educate the horse to jump in a better way or more subtly to move away from your leg in dressage using a whip. Horses would never get trained if we followed that logic surely we all know that is causing the horse a degree of discomfort and certainly with intent . What do we do with those amateur ,inexperienced riders who cannot see the errors of their ways as we all know they are out there. to use your analogy if the perpetrator could make the case that they did not know what they were doing was wrong the abuse isnt taking place is that correct ?
Sorry if it sounds pedantic but all of us that are interested in horse welfare are not a long way apart on this and there have been huge strides forward in Show jumping welfare .

 

[fburton]

So in essence what you are saying is and i am not talking about rapping here . Its ok to discomfort a horse for the benefit of the human learning experience but not to educate the horse to jump in a better way or more subtly to move away from your leg in dressage using a whip.

I think you're interpreting what I wrote in a very strange way, and not one I intended at all. We shouldn't knowingly inflict pain or extreme discomfort on a horse to achieve ends that can also be achieved in gentler ways. If we inflict unknowingly, it is also bad, but less so. That's where education comes in.

Inflicting mild discomfort is well nigh unavoidable in training, unless you want to go the purely positive (rewards only) route which I personally don't and which may sometimes entail problems of its own (imo).

The question is, as always, where does one draw the line between mild and extreme discomfort? When does it become 'unacceptable'?

My view is that, rather than drawing a line and sticking to it rigidly, we should do what we possibly can within real life restrictions always to reduce the amount of discomfort we need to inflict on our horses in order to achieve our goals.

I'm glad to hear that there have been huge strides in SJ welfare. Some (maybe most) of these welfare improvements have been as a result of pressure from outside. And that's why I believe it's important that a sensible degree of pressure is maintained, to motivate further improvement.

 

[Goldenstar]

Well of course we can talk about but the thread has been about the treatment of the horse no ones discussed the effect of behaving in a undesirable way on the human .

 

[popsdosh]

I think you're interpreting what I wrote in a very strange way, and not one I intended at all. We shouldn't knowingly inflict pain or extreme discomfort on a horse to achieve ends that can also be achieved in gentler ways. If we inflict unknowingly, it is also bad, but less so. That's where education comes in.

Inflicting mild discomfort is well nigh unavoidable in training, unless you want to go the purely positive (rewards only) route which I personally don't and which may sometimes entail problems of its own (imo).

The question is, as always, where does one draw the line between mild and extreme discomfort? When does it become 'unacceptable'?

My view is that, rather than drawing a line and sticking to it rigidly, we should do what we possibly can within real life restrictions always to reduce the amount of discomfort we need to inflict on our horses in order to achieve our goals.

I'm glad to hear that there have been huge strides in SJ welfare. Some (maybe most) of these welfare improvements have been as a result of pressure from outside. And that's why I believe it's important that a sensible degree of pressure is maintained, to motivate further improvement.

It is all down to where we draw the line! I totally agree with you! However with success boundaries tend to creep somewhat.

Its ok blaming it all on greed at the top which has been suggested but how do we deal with those at the lower levels who put no effort into improving or frankly cant see they need to ,the ones who every time they get on a horse cause it damage. Olympia at Christmas is our shop window out to the general public what message did some of those kids in the pony jumping send out. If I did that when I was their age I would have been stopped mid round and dragged off the pony,however it does show the pressure to achieve creeps in everywhere. If we dealt with it there then maybe the whole sport in time would benefit.

 

[fburton]

I don't think we are that different in our viewpoints, popsdosh.

 

[Micropony]

I think you're interpreting what I wrote in a very strange way, and not one I intended at all. We shouldn't knowingly inflict pain or extreme discomfort on a horse to achieve ends that can also be achieved in gentler ways. If we inflict unknowingly, it is also bad, but less so. That's where education comes in.

Inflicting mild discomfort is well nigh unavoidable in training, unless you want to go the purely positive (rewards only) route which I personally don't and which may sometimes entail problems of its own (imo).

The question is, as always, where does one draw the line between mild and extreme discomfort? When does it become 'unacceptable'?

My view is that, rather than drawing a line and sticking to it rigidly, we should do what we possibly can within real life restrictions always to reduce the amount of discomfort we need to inflict on our horses in order to achieve our goals.

I'm glad to hear that there have been huge strides in SJ welfare. Some (maybe most) of these welfare improvements have been as a result of pressure from outside. And that's why I believe it's important that a sensible degree of pressure is maintained, to motivate further improvement.

Steady on old girl, or we'll all be agreeing!!

 

[Caol Ila]

I think they are different problems. My beef was with the way any discussion of abuse in the elite levels inevitably turns into a discussion about bad riding and abuse at the pleb levels. Try this analogy: if I start a thread bemoaning poverty in the UK and wondering what can be done to alleviate it, saying that there is worse poverty in Africa is true, but mostly irrelevent.

The intent question is interesting. We live in a society with a few hundred years of criminal justice predicated on intent -- punishing someone for their guilty mind as well as their illegal acts. That's why most places have an insanity defense, grounded by the notion that it's unjust and immoral to punish someone who cannot appreciate nor understand the wrongfulness of their actions. That's also why (as someone on this thread said earlier) there is a substantial difference between murder and manslaughter sentences. It makes no difference to the victim -- they are still dead -- but our jurisprudence has long held that killing someone willfully and deliberately (with malice aforethought, they say in the business) is worse than killing someone by doing something so unbelievably negligent and stupid that you should have known it might cause harm, but didn't actually intend on anyone ending up dead.

Bad riding and mistakes made through ignorance should be dealt with, through education, and there isn't enough of it, but someone who sticks thumbtacks in splint boots to make horse jump higher (to use an extreme example) is committing a worse wrong than a novice who socks their horse in the mouth over every jump because they can't balance. Both hurt the horse, but from a moral standpoint, willfully and deliberately causing the horse pain is worse.

 

[Cortez]

I agree that deliberate cruelty is wholely different to ignorant cruelty: both need to be dealt with, but ignorance is no defense, legally or morally. Education is the key to tackling the latter and prosecution the former, but there are times when there is crossover between the two also.

 

[ihatework]

Caol Ila, I totally take your point and do not disagree.

But what about where 'abuse' or 'torture' to quote to emotive terms on this thread are not so clear cut.

2 examples on this thread are pinch boots and rapping. Of which it would appear very easy to immediately jump to the 'abuse' stance without really understanding what you protest about.

I have had some (not a lot) of experience with pinch boots. I had on heart do not believe these are abusive to the horse if used in moderation and for the intended purpose. I do not believe they hurt horses although there is no strong evidence to either support or defy that statement. I do believe though that it can be as detrimental to some horses jump as it is positive to others. The FEI are in a very strong phase of cutting out dodgy practise and these boots have been on their radar for a while, if they were abusive they would be banned. I do perhaps think there is a case for banning them on a performance enhancing type argument.

In terms of rapping I have virtually zero experience so do not feel qualified to comment. I witnessed a trainer many years ago rap (in my understood definition) a couple of horses, so heavy top pole lifted with the intention of forcing the horse to hit it. It is in my ethical opinion abuse and has no place in horse training. That said, I'm intrigued by popsdosh explanation of a skilfully used cane to gently brush and heighten awareness of a particular limb. I'd be interested to observe that in action by someone experienced.