Pinch boots, rapping and other forms of SJ torture

ihatework said:
I have had some (not a lot) of experience with pinch boots. I had on heart do not believe these are abusive to the horse if used in moderation and for the intended purpose. I do not believe they hurt horses although there is no strong evidence to either support or defy that statement. I do believe though that it can be as detrimental to some horses jump as it is positive to others. The FEI are in a very strong phase of cutting out dodgy practise and these boots have been on their radar for a while, if they were abusive they would be banned. I do perhaps think there is a case for banning them on a performance enhancing type argument.
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If they do not hurt the horse (and causing discomfort is hurting in my book), then why would they make them snap up their legs more or even as you say, have a detrimental effect on some horses?
 
I too have seen horses "rapped" (more like tapped...) with a very light bamboo cane; it certainly wasn't an abuse, any more than tapping a horse on the croup to encourage sitting in the piaffe.

I have also seen horses rapped with a very heavy pole; this WAS abusive, and the people doing it were ignorant, not very experienced amateurs. So again: a training method which is open to abuse, either through ignorance or design?
 
Wagtail said:
If they do not hurt the horse (and causing discomfort is hurting in my book), then why would they make them snap up their legs more or even as you say, have a detrimental effect on some horses?
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They work on propriception / pressure points, some horses will have a stronger reaction than others. Maybe because of the fitting of the boot, maybe they are just more sensitive to it naturally!
The 2 adverse reactions I have heard of are either that they just don't like the Sensation and want the boots off (think a bit like putting on tall travel boots!) or a more subtle reaction can be that as they become more aware of the hindlimb they almost forget about the forelimb.
 
ihatework said:
They work on propriception / pressure points, some horses will have a stronger reaction than others. Maybe because of the fitting of the boot, maybe they are just more sensitive to it naturally!
The 2 adverse reactions I have heard of are either that they just don't like the Sensation and want the boots off (think a bit like putting on tall travel boots!) or a more subtle reaction can be that as they become more aware of the hindlimb they almost forget about the forelimb.
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Thanks for explaining that. I have been a good few years out of competing and pinch boots are not something I came across whilst I was show jumping. You are saying it is a bit like the high stepping action you see when you put boots on horses that are not accustomed to them? That makes sense to me. However, would the effect not wear off over time unless the pressure points were actually uncomfortable?
 
Wagtail said:
Thanks for explaining that. I have been a good few years out of competing and pinch boots are not something I came across whilst I was show jumping. You are saying it is a bit like the high stepping action you see when you put boots on horses that are not accustomed to them? That makes sense to me. However, would the effect not wear off over time unless the pressure points were actually uncomfortable?
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It can vary but yes a WTF have you put on my leg type response.
If they find it uncomfortable or not then that reaction would subdue over time but either way the boots wouldn't serve the purpose you need so continuing to use them would be at best pointless and at worst detrimental. These boots really are just used for 5 mins at a type to heighten awareness of hind limbs
 
Pinch boots kind of cause the reaction my horse has when I put travel boots on I think.

Rapping I think of as the people who put an invisible to the horse metal Pole above the normal Pole so they end up hitting it. I also know of people (from being told about them, haven't seen it) with a pole on a pullets which allows the Pole to be raised after the horse has taken off. Have also heard of both these methods having electric shocks involved.

Brushing a horses leg with a cane or whip I wouldn't count as rapping, anymore than I think of a forwards whip aid if the leg is ignored as a beating.
 
Cortez said:
I agree that deliberate cruelty is wholely different to ignorant cruelty: both need to be dealt with, but ignorance is no defense, legally or morally. Education is the key to tackling the latter and prosecution the former, but there are times when there is crossover between the two also.
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I though that caol Ila's point was that it actually often is a defence legally?
 
I did say often not always! I think it also depends on the level of cruelty and whether it is beyond what a lay person would be expected to know. - I guess Im thinking more of the more complicated veterinary situations that can occur with the more vulnerable of society.
 
ester said:
I though that caol Ila's point was that it actually often is a defence legally?
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You dont get off a speeding ticket with that defence . Ignorance of the law is not a defence under our legal system at all which is why that reference baffled me. Our legal system would collapse if it was we would all be totally ignorant wouldnt we!
 
we're not talking ignorance of the law though are we? We are talking ignorance of an animals needs, those are two totally different bits of knowledge and it is well documented that those in a professional position are expected to have greater knowledge of the welfare requirements of animals in their care than a lay person. Which is why I questioned it as I don't think saying that ignorance isn't ever a defence in law is quite right. I certainly know of magistrates rspca cases where someone thought they were doing the best for an animal, had sought vet advice but struggled to follow it for whom their lack of in depth veterinary knowledge was a successful defence.
 
ester said:
we're not talking ignorance of the law though are we? We are talking ignorance of an animals needs, those are two totally different bits of knowledge and it is well documented that those in a professional position are expected to have greater knowledge of the welfare requirements of animals in their care than a lay person. Which is why I questioned it as I don't think saying that ignorance isn't ever a defence in law is quite right. I certainly know of magistrates rspca cases where someone thought they were doing the best for an animal, had sought vet advice but struggled to follow it for whom their lack of in depth veterinary knowledge was a successful defence.
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So what line do you take when the village idiot raps a horse because they have seen somebody else do it but can legitimately say oh I didnt know that would hurt the horse. If its wrong its wrong it makes no difference who is doing it IMO. The inexperienced amateurs are not immune from responsibility I really dont see the issue with that. Maybe any punishment will be tempered by it but the guilt is the same. However most of what we going on about is only a moral issue anyhow as none of it is illegal surprisingly.
 
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I am only pointing out facts in response to others posts, or questions when I am not sure blanket statements can be wholly correct if that is what they are trying to say. I've never said inexperienced amateurs are immune from responsibility but even if you dint think so the law in other cases (not rapping obv but animal welfare to at least keep it relevant rather than driving!) do hold professionals more responsible for their actions if they are found to be failing.
 
popsdosh said:
So what line do you take when the village idiot raps a horse because they have seen somebody else do it but can legitimately say oh I didnt know that would hurt the horse. If its wrong its wrong it makes no difference who is doing it IMO. The inexperienced amateurs are not immune from responsibility I really dont see the issue with that. Maybe any punishment will be tempered by it but the guilt is the same. However most of what we going on about is only a moral issue anyhow as none of it is illegal surprisingly.
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I don't feel the guilt is the same.
 
FfionWinnie said:
Yep commercial sheep breeds generally aren't fit for purpose. Wonder who bred them to be unfit for purpose...

You won't find a primitive sheep getting into those situations.

Not just cos it's run off. :o
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I was thinking about this today, given the number of sheep in the national flock and the number that make it to slaughter, along with the number who at least provide their replacements via breeding, then sheep are probably no more accident prone than any other species of domestic herbivore. It is perhaps a reflection of the nature of the husbandry of sheep in general that they are not "supervised" as much as other species are and so maybe, in some areas, the problems are not headed off as well as for other species.
 
FestiveG said:
I was thinking about this today, given the number of sheep in the national flock and the number that make it to slaughter, along with the number who at least provide their replacements via breeding, then sheep are probably no more accident prone than any other species of domestic herbivore. It is perhaps a reflection of the nature of the husbandry of sheep in general that they are not "supervised" as much as other species are and so maybe, in some areas, the problems are not headed off as well as for other species.
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One only has to compare them to the scrapes the horses on this forum get into!
 
Have just got to say that I have never even carried a whip on a horse as I haven't needed to I understand that isn't cruel when used properly but stuff described here...horrific.
 
popsdosh said:
Torture is an emotive word .
Im afraid most techniques are legitimate if used in careful hands and they will always carry on. Its when they are used by the inexperienced they become a problem. The one exception being hyper sensitising of the lower limbs there is no excuse!
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Rapping is illegal as far as I am aware - I believe it is in the FEI Rules. I'd never heard of pinch boots so am heading off to Google.
 
popsdosh said:
Guilt is a moral judgement the crimes the same.
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Exactly. And I don't feel the guilt is the same if someone hurts a horse out of ignorance doing exactly the same thing as another person does to gain competitive advantage .
 
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ycbm said:
Exactly. And I don't feel the guilt is the same if someone hurts a horse out of ignorance doing exactly the same thing as another person does to gain competitive advantage .
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Again we are talking about the effect on the human .
To the horse that's irrelevant .
And it's the horses that matter not want the humans feel about things .
 
Well, yes, that's where the discussion had moved on to.

I didn't say it mattered less. I said I felt the guilt was less.

This all started with someone suggesting that the guilt of a professional showjumper is somehow lessened in the context of less knowledgeable owners causing similar amounts of problems through ignorance. I don't think that's true.
 
ycbm said:
Well, yes, that's where the discussion had moved on to.

I didn't say it mattered less. I said I felt the guilt was less.

This all started with someone suggesting that the guilt of a professional showjumper is somehow lessened in the context of less knowledgeable owners causing similar amounts of problems through ignorance. I don't think that's true.
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Actually if you go back through the post nobody actually said that!!

its how the comments were twisted by others that could not accept that they may be doing harm as well ,some even suggested if you were doing harm it was excused by being inexperienced.
 
Goldenstar said:
Again we are talking about the effect on the human .
To the horse that's irrelevant .
And it's the horses that matter not want the humans feel about things .
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It's all that matters to the horse, yes - but that's not all that matters in the bigger picture. You personally may not consider the 'bigger picture' worthy of consideration, but it is the world all of us have to operate in and from which real consequences flow (e.g. punishment for wrongdoing) - and quite right too, imo. That's why I think that, although what the horse feels is crucial, limiting the discussion to just that is unhelpful.
 
Surely it could be rightly argued that some techniques are less discomforting to the horse if carried out by somebody who understands what they are doing and thats more likely in the top end rather than at the lower levels where they see something and dont understand how it is used properly ie: pinch boots.

I have never seen any 'Top' pro use rapping as described by some and to some I think it has become along with other techniques a bit of an urban myth, Im sure it happens and god help anybody I saw doing it. The problem is somebody hears of something and not knowing the full story invents their own way of doing things and as it moves down the food chain gets exagerated. The method of rapping I was shown and was explained to me was by somebody at the top of the game using their top horse at the time ,at that level .5mm makes a difference and schooling technique is what its about. Do you not think professionals know there is no point scaring a horse as they dont tend to perform for you.
 
popsdosh said:
Do you not think professionals know there is no point scaring a horse as they dont tend to perform for you.
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Absolutely agree. SJ horses are bred for the job, they are usually sensitive souls, and love to do it. However, introduce a bit of discomfort and most ( not all I accept) will have a dip in performance. How many threads do we see, with my horse has started refusing, and somewhere down the line they then establish changes such as arthritis etc etc. The fact that they are sensitive helps make them good jumpers, they don't want to touch the poles. Start showing them that pain = jumping they soon stop.

My lad is super sensitive, and very careful. He has an amazing back end technique. As a youngster he would dangle his front legs a bit. As well s correct training ( V Poles etc ) We put back boots on, ( recommended by a friend) , and guess what, his front end improved. It gave him something to think about, and helped him focus. I can assure you if they had hurt him in anyway, the rider would have been deposited.

Pro riders, need to make money. To do that they need correctly trained horses, that want to do the job, not have to do the job.
 
Popsdosh and Xmas Morning Star I think I love you, lol!!

Seriously though I remembered last night a more recent experience of observing the bad rapping I described earlier - witnessed it the best part of 20 years ago by a local idiot 'trainer' and then 2 years ago when we went to Ireland on a young event horse shopping trip. Arrived down the lane to a well known production/selling yard to witness a horse being rapped before our very eyes. Not the one we we're going to see, but still - if they were doing that in front of clients what goes on behind closed doors?!!!! We didn't by the horse.
 
OK, I'm pleading ignorance here... what is the difference between pinch boots and "normal" wrap around fetlock boots? (or have I been inadvertently been using pinch boots for the past 10 years?)
 
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