Pinch boots, rapping and other forms of SJ torture

Casey76 said:
OK, I'm pleading ignorance here... what is the difference between pinch boots and "normal" wrap around fetlock boots? (or have I been inadvertently been using pinch boots for the past 10 years?)
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Not a lot to be honest it is difficult to tell the difference which is why possibly it was unfortunate they were in the title.
I think many are sold as pinch boots as theres a new market(latest fashion) and the Placebo effect is wonderful.
 
I didn't say ignorance is a legal defense (it isn't). I said insanity was, to illustrate the point that our criminal justice system punishes the intent to commit a crime as well as the criminal act itself.

Premeditation or lack thereof can effect the charges or sentencing, because modern jurisprudence presumes that planning and being fully aware of a crime you are committing is worse than not. "I didn't know there was drug money in that suitcase" might not get you out the rap, but if you can convince the judge and jury that you really didn't, you might get a reduced sentence. Maybe.

I said that a professional or experienced amateur who knowingly hurts a horse is, to me, committing a greater wrong than a novice who makes mistakes out of ignorance. A moral wrong, not a legal one. They are different. The professional should have the expertise to know better. Of course, the horse doesn't know the difference, but we, as humans, should deal with the problems differently. That said, it depends on what it is. I would say that some things are more black and white than others. Whacking a horse's legs with a pole as it goes over a jump, or putting caustic substances on it to cause maximum pain, for instance, is not ambiguous; one need not be a horseperson to recognize that.
 
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popsdosh said:
Not a lot to be honest it is difficult to tell the difference which is why possibly it was unfortunate they were in the title.
I think many are sold as pinch boots as theres a new market(latest fashion) and the Placebo effect is wonderful.
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So it's possible that the only difference is intent?!
 
Caol Ila said:
I didn't say ignorance is a legal defense (it isn't). I said insanity was, to illustrate the point that our criminal justice system punishes the intent to commit a crime as well as the criminal act itself.

Premeditation or lack thereof can effect the charges or sentencing, because modern jurisprudence presumes that planning and being fully aware of a crime you are committing is worse than not. "I didn't know there was drug money in that suitcase" might not get you out the rap, but if you can convince the judge and jury that you really didn't, you might get a reduced sentence. Maybe.

I said that a professional or experienced amateur who knowingly hurts a horse is, to me, committing a greater wrong than a novice who makes mistakes out of ignorance. A moral wrong, not a legal one. They are different. The professional should have the expertise to know better. Of course, the horse doesn't know the difference, but we, as humans, should deal with the problems differently. That said, it depends on what it is. I would say that some things are more black and white than others. Whacking a horse's legs with a pole as it goes over a jump, or putting caustic substances on it to cause maximum pain, for instance, is not ambiguous; one need not be a horseperson to recognize that.
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Dont disagree but then nobody has suggested they are OK but like all things it can blur around the edges as cruelty has a habit of being subjective. I do not think most riders would consider pinch boots to cause equine torture but some may.
 
ihatework said:
Intent of what?
Intent to cause hurt to your horse or Intent to improve jumping technique?
Because the crux of the argument boils down to 'are pinch boots abusive'
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I meant intent to cause discomfort for the purpose of changing behaviour that leads to better jumping. So both, I guess.

However, if there really isn't a significant practical difference between pinch boots and "normal" wrap around fetlock boots - as popsdosh seemed to be suggesting - maybe the difference lies elsewhere. (Which is why I asked about intent.)
 
fburton said:
I meant intent to cause discomfort for the purpose of changing behaviour that leads to better jumping. So both, I guess.

However, if there really isn't a significant practical difference between pinch boots and "normal" wrap around fetlock boots - as popsdosh seemed to be suggesting - maybe the difference lies elsewhere. (Which is why I asked about intent.)
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But it's all about uncertainties isn't it?
Do pinch boots cause a horse discomfort. It hasn't been proven either way as far as I'm aware. If they do cause discomfort is this more or less than the discomfort of hitting a fence? Again unknown. If they do cause discomfort then is this sufficient discomfort to be abuse? I believe not from both observing their use and by the fact the FEI allow their use, although monitor their application closely.

Do pinch boots work? Again I don't know if any concrete evidence either way. My belief is they can help some horses although I wouldn't dispute there could be a placebo element too them. Pinch boots look virtually identical to regular fetlock boots, there aren't any hidden lumps/bumps in them, my understanding is their effect comes from how the strap is placed over the fetlock joint.

I think whether they work or not it pretty irrelevant really. Surely anyone paying the price and choosing to use them must think they work.

With any training tool there is potential to abuse, be that boots, whip, spur, noseband, lunging gadget etc. If someone is uneducated enough to think that inflicting pain/forcing a horse will improve performance long term then they are deluded. Yet good sympathetic riders who care greatly about horse welfare will use many of the above mentioned tools at some stage.

My point is, people should educate themselves first before jumping on any moral high horse.

I think this has been a really good thread but will bow out now
 
Just to be clear, I'm not saying pinch boots are abusive. I know almost nothing about them but would like to learn more.

I totally agree with your point about the potential to abuse any training tool.
 
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