Planning for stables- which are 20 years old...!

silvershadow81

silvershadow81

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So I’m in touch with the local council regarding getting planning in to change the surface of a riding arena from grass to an all weather.

From the drawings I submitted, I included where our stable block is.

They have come back and said that there was never planning for the stables.....

We only moved in February this year so I’ve spoken to previous owners and they have said the planning officer signed off the house and stables 20 years ago. (They built the stables and house)

I have told the council this and that they have been in place over 20 years, but have been told they need to go to main library to dig out the paperwork....

I have done some research and I think as they have been there 20 years I don’t need to apply for planning for the stables now?

Just wondered if anyone works in planning or had similar experiences please?!
 
When we bought our house 4 years ago it was clear from the legal work that there was no planning ever for the yard, stables, school etc.
The vendors had bought it 13 years previously with all the buildings in place - so were happy they had been there more than 10 years (planning limit I think) but our lawyers made the vendors pay for insurance (only about £80 or so) to cover us if there were any problem regarding planning.

If you have evidence - old photos, old plans, old sales particulars, statements from previous owners to absolutely prove they have been there 20 years - you might get into a bun fight but it shouldn't be an issue - just time and hassle

I'd be a bit annoyed with your solicitors that they didn't spot the lack of planning in their work when you were buying !
 
I'd be a bit annoyed with your solicitors that they didn't spot the lack of planning in their work when you were buying !

This, your conveyancing solicitors should have done all the checks for you to confirm the buildings had planning. I would be getting back on to them to find out what checks they did.
I think you will need to prove how long they have been there but even so my guess will be you will still need to apply for retrospective planning but part of the reasoning being the length of time they have been in situ. This has potential to cost you more money and hold up any planning for an arena.
If your solicitor did not do the checks for you I would maybe suggest they handle this for you free of charge as a 'good will gesture' due to their (rather massive) oversight. As has been said above, if they were found not to have planning at purchase an insurance policy should have been taken out just incase a situation such as this arose.

Good luck on getting it sorted
 
I think if you can prove they have been there for 15 years (check the cut off date as it may be different) and bo one has complained you are fine. Be wary with planning departments in councils... they are very corrupt, or at least ours are, and will do anything to pocket extra money wherever they can.
 
Another that would be a bit miffed about your solicitors not picking this up. However if in fact there is something in your legal docs that proves they were signed off I’d look that out ASAP, go back to your solicitor and check with them. Otherwise if you have enough evidence to prove they have been there 20 years you can apply for permitted development approval quite easily. You will need things like published historical maps/photos that should show the stables present. Any construction documents from the time and witness statements from the old owners.
 
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You may need to apply for a Certificate of Lawful Use or a Lawful Development Certificate, depending on whereabouts in the UK you are based. Evidence (photos, plans, google earth images etc) of the development going back as far as possible will help.

Your solicitor should be able to advise, and I would be asking them to cover costs too!

Good luck!
 
If an installation has been in place for a minimum period (normally I think 4 years except in certain special instances) openly for all to see and has not been objected to it no longer needs permission. Just hopefully you can assemble the evidence to prove how long they have been there regardless of any previous planning applications

"Under s171B of the Town and Country Planning Act 1990, the local authority can only take enforcement action within four years of completion of any work which has been carried out without permission. If it fails to take action within four years then it loses its right to do so and though this does not technically render the wonder lawful, it is for all practical purposes.

The four year rule applies to alterations and additions and changes of use to a single dwelling house. If the work involves a change of use to something other than a single dwelling house then the time limit for enforcement action is ten years."
 
If you go on google earth/maps there should be photos of your stables over at least 10years. My neighbours got a certificate of lawful development using that and photos off Facebook to prove they had been there for over four years.
 
Wow! Thank you all for all your advice, all very useful.

We have fired an email off to our solicitors outlining the issue (hadn't thought to go back to them) so hoping she will get back to us with a response we can send on to the council.

I cannot seem to find a Google map which allows me to go back in time. However I can see that it is not showing anything up to date as there are neighbouring arenas which look like open ones on google, but are now indoor. Our stables can clearly be seen.

The previous owners will be supplying us with the plans (and photos) so hopefully we can go back armed with some real information and dated documents/ pictures.

I am hoping as they have been in place over 20 years, there is not much that can be done, just very frustrating!
 
I'm pretty sure from memory if you download google earth there is a slide bar at bottom left that you can scroll through the years to see changes and you can just screen shot and save it as it shows the years.
 
Ruby's Mum said:
I'm pretty sure from memory if you download google earth there is a slide bar at bottom left that you can scroll through the years to see changes and you can just screen shot and save it as it shows the years.
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Thank you, I have tried that but my PC is locked down here at work and will not let me install..... ill try doing it on my phone to see if that works. Appreciate your help! :-)
 
I would save whatever pictures you can showing them from as far back as you can get on google, to show them in situ. If the previous owners said it was all signed off when the house was built then perhaps your solicitor can get them to confirm this is the case in writing and ask them to provide whatever documentation they have (at no extra cost to you as they should have done this during the house purchase!).

Another possibility is do you have neighbours? Perhaps one has an aerial shot showing your property? We have a few neighbours even though we are rural and having been to the neighbours houses, they all have framed aerial shots from a company that flew over many years ago and you can see our property, land etc on the photos too (long shot but thought worth mentioning).
 
Ruby's Mum said:
I would save whatever pictures you can showing them from as far back as you can get on google, to show them in situ. If the previous owners said it was all signed off when the house was built then perhaps your solicitor can get them to confirm this is the case in writing and ask them to provide whatever documentation they have (at no extra cost to you as they should have done this during the house purchase!).

Another possibility is do you have neighbours? Perhaps one has an aerial shot showing your property? We have a few neighbours even though we are rural and having been to the neighbours houses, they all have framed aerial shots from a company that flew over many years ago and you can see our property, land etc on the photos too (long shot but thought worth mentioning).
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You are over complicating it as in most instances a signed declaration from the previous owners will suffice. No point in rushing around until you know what you need

Im afraid your solicitor is totally incompetent and should be made to pay for your planning certificate of lawful use which may set you back 1k upwards.
 
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popsdosh said:
You are over complicating it as in most instances a signed declaration from the previous owners will suffice. No point in rushing around until you know what you need

Im afraid your solicitor is totally incompetent and should be made to pay for your planning certificate of lawful use which may set you back 1k upwards.
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It's actually well worth having all the supporting evidence to submit as well I would imagine, it can't do any harm to give them all the evidence so they have everything in front of them, the OP DID ask how best to get photos so obviously that's what we've been assisting with!
 
Ruby's Mum said:
It's actually well worth having all the supporting evidence to submit as well I would imagine, it can't do any harm to give them all the evidence so they have everything in front of them, the OP DID ask how best to get photos so obviously that's what we've been assisting with!
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My point is the OP does not know whats required yet if anything.

OP have you done your own property history search on your local councils planning portal as your answers may lie within ,at least our local authority goes back 30yrs online with all documents available.
 
would do nothing, the planning has been acheived as the stables have been there more than 12 years, its 4 years for agricultural buildings. You may be asked to prove the 12 years, but they have the information in their archives, if they don't, then get a declaration from the sellers, and anyone else who has known the place for more than 12 years.

it is your solicitors error, they should pay if a certificate of lawfulness is required by the planners, they are however actually unlikely to demand it, but its your solicitors who should solve it for you.
 
As others have said, it sounds like an omission from your solicitors that they should fix. Time scales are 4 years for development such as buildings and 10 years for change of use. Your stables have been in existence for much longer than this, so it should be straightforward for your solicitors to resolve.
 
Thanks everyone! My father managed to get photos right back to 2002 of the property clearly showing the stables were there, so we have evidence.
I am also going to ask the previous owners for a statement of date they were built and any advice they council gave them back then so I can also supply that to the council.
Haven't yet heard back from the solicitor, hoping they can step in at some point to rectify!!

I guess the route I may take is to add retrospective planning for the stables to the arena planning form so that everything can be signed off (hopefully!), however I am still nervous that the council will be annoyed that there was never planning on the stables (I guess that's not our fault!)
 
silvershadow81 said:
however I am still nervous that the council will be annoyed that there was never planning on the stables (I guess that's not our fault!)
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I wouldn't worry, the council will have bigger issues to worry about than a stable block that has been there for years, nobody has ever complained about and you can prove you didn't build.

Work with them, and be super co-operative, as you are applying for the surface, so need them on board.
 
well planning is in. Fingers crossed it is straightforward! we haven't done anything about mentioning the stables as solicitors said they have been there longer than 10 years. we also have plans dating back to 1997 where there were existing buildings there anyway!

Thanks again for all your help and advice with it
 
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