Please be kind

I've seen the videos in your other thread. What you call "explosions" doesn't look skittish or malicious. I think he's in pain. Could be the saddle or back problems, or both.
Kirstd33 said:
He’s ridden 3-5 times/week just 345-1.5 hr hacks either with company or solo. Mainly walk, 3-5 mins trot and the odd canter where the ground is good enough.
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Too long, too much walk in my opinion.
As we all know walk is a gait without momentum and with 3 of 4 legs on the ground there's only a small load on tendons, ligaments and joints, which is why walk is recommended for warm-up, cool-down and horses in rehab.

BUT
Walk is also the gait with the highest spine rotation to the left and right due to reduced abdominal muscle activity.
So not only does the spine rotate the most in walking, the support function of the abdominal muscles from below is also at its lowest in walking and does not stabilize sufficiently. For horses with a weak/sore back long hacks mainly in walk is pure poison!

I recommend you either take him on long walks and don't ride him at all or if you must mount him only to trot and canter and reduce riding in walk to a minimum.

If it was my horse I'd turn him out 24/7 and start riding or any other work not before spring next year.
 
Capalldonn said:
I've seen the videos in your other thread. What you call "explosions" doesn't look skittish or malicious. I think he's in pain. Could be the saddle or back problems, or both.

Too long, too much walk in my opinion.
As we all know walk is a gait without momentum and with 3 of 4 legs on the ground there's only a small load on tendons, ligaments and joints, which is why walk is recommended for warm-up, cool-down and horses in rehab.

BUT
Walk is also the gait with the highest spine rotation to the left and right due to reduced abdominal muscle activity.
So not only does the spine rotate the most in walking, the support function of the abdominal muscles from below is also at its lowest in walking and does not stabilize sufficiently. For horses with a weak/sore back long hacks mainly in walk is pure poison!

I recommend you either take him on long walks and don't ride him at all or if you must mount him only to trot and canter and reduce riding in walk to a minimum.

If it was my horse I'd turn him out 24/7 and start riding or any other work not before spring next year.
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Many thanks for your comments, prior to getting back on him I did however do at least 8 weeks of inhand walking twice daily at 6am/6pm going from 5 mins twice daily to 40 mins twice daily before the vet gave me the green light to get on him as I'm only smallish at 8.5 stone and he felt he was ready? Apparently the exercise is needed following his type of surgery to prevent scar adhesions forming in haphazard fashions, so the ligaments need to be worked but in a controlled and graded fashion?

he just wouldn't be capable of more than 5 mins trot and any attempts at canter have resulted in those moments i captured in the clips you've seen and far worse. I do agree though I think there is still pain there, although saddle has been re-fitted twice lately, and he's had chiro and physio.
Oh i wish he could talk!
 
Sorry if others have said it already as I haven't read all the replies but I would be changing him from Soothe & Gain as it's a high calorie conditioning feed which sounds like he doesn't need and switch to something like Fast Fibre if it's just to carry supplements.

Definitely check for PSSM, pX if I remember rightly can have scatty behaviour. Maybe look at popping him on a high dose of Vitamin E in the meantime? Could you long rein or lead him out for a while instead? Is he the same if you're not on board?
 
Ambers Echo said:
PTS is not a welfare issue for an older horse with possible pain and behavioural problems. Safeguards against far worse fates.

I feel for you - it's an awful situaiton but your welfare also matters.
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This again and again from me. You're both really unhappy by the sounds of it and that's not fair on you or the pony.

A bad start to education might be fixable in a 7 y/o but in a 17 y/o that has had lots of medical issues (remembered pain)

If 'hand on heart' you're not sure he's not in pain - then as someone who deals with him day to day - you gut is probably right here.

Horrible situation so have a big hug from me - there is no easy answer but you do have to put the happiness of both of you in the mix.
 
I've had a look at the videos on your other thread and I was ready to say I think he's just being a little wotsit, until I saw the one where he shot off suddenly. I aways assume that sort of behaviour is pain, as if something has suddenly hurt them. I'd put him down for your sake, unless you want to dedicate the next year to a rehab and very strict riding schedule with no guarantee of any change.
 
Big hugs from me too.

I'm sorry you've ended up in this situation.

Your not happy to ride him and he's not happy being ridden.

I was going to suggest turning him away for the winter to allow any final healing time to do it's thing. But I've seen your other posts which say he has ingrained behavioural problems, which makes me lean further towards PTS as a better option for both of you. I now feel turning away is just kicking the decision into the long grass.
 
Kirstd33 said:
he just wouldn't be capable of more than 5 mins trot and any attempts at canter have resulted in those moments i captured in the clips you've seen and far worse. I do agree though I think there is still pain there, although saddle has been re-fitted twice lately, and he's had chiro and physio.
Oh i wish he could talk!
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Now I'm even more convinced that he has a problem with the saddle and/or back. My old mare did exactly the same when the balance point of her saddle wasn't right anymore. No signs of discomfort in walk and trot at all. Only when I started to canter she would turn into a rodeo pony. The saddler changed the balance point and then it was better for a while but in the end I bought another saddle with a flexible leather tree. She loved that one from the first step and never bucked again.
 
I hadn't really looked at what you are feeding him - but I would stop ALL hard feed for now. Everything. He can live on grass and hay if necessary for the time being.

The YO I referred to in my post about my bonkers horse did quite a bit of re-hab work and schooling for clients but she said she made it an inflexible rule to only ever get on a horse that she was feeding. Her first thing was to cut out any hard feed at first and then add if necessary.
 
maya2008 said:
If vet is sure nothing hurts then…
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After 15 years as a fitter I've come to the conclusion myself that THIS conclusion just isn't possible. Saying a saddle definitely fits when the horse is clearly unhappy in ridden work is similar, just a box ticking exercise. Not to say there are any answers, but we can't take it as red even when myriad professionals have said there's no pain. Witness all the horrors that are found on the dissections.

Capalldonn said:
I've seen the videos in your other thread. What you call "explosions" doesn't look skittish or malicious. I think he's in pain. Could be the saddle or back problems, or both.

Too long, too much walk in my opinion.
As we all know walk is a gait without momentum and with 3 of 4 legs on the ground there's only a small load on tendons, ligaments and joints, which is why walk is recommended for warm-up, cool-down and horses in rehab.

BUT
Walk is also the gait with the highest spine rotation to the left and right due to reduced abdominal muscle activity.
So not only does the spine rotate the most in walking, the support function of the abdominal muscles from below is also at its lowest in walking and does not stabilize sufficiently. For horses with a weak/sore back long hacks mainly in walk is pure poison!

I recommend you either take him on long walks and don't ride him at all or if you must mount him only to trot and canter and reduce riding in walk to a minimum.

If it was my horse I'd turn him out 24/7 and start riding or any other work not before spring next year.
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I'm thinking we must know each other :cool:, completely agree. Walk is very hard on the horse in terms of movement patterns, carrying the rider, and ribcage rotation, and I'd not picked up on that in the original post. For anyone that can FEEL that instability as they walk on a long rein to get the blood flowing, your leverage on top, towering above them, makes it worse, and you're best off hand walking instead, then getting on an asking for correct balance and more stability, whether walk or trot or even canter, as long as you've walked long enough to warm the joint fluid up (10-15 minutes).

I've been talking to a "long ride" specialist very recently and he has horses, because they have absolute permission to express themselves, will ask to trot after 30 minutes in walk, and he sees the issues from many saddles in walk, especially walking downhill. We ask a lot of horses to carry us.

I think turnout and non-ridden work is absolutely worth looking at here, not sure if @Kirstd33 has looked at equitopiacenter.com to be able to assess him better, there's so much good content on there. There's a lot you can tell from just standing looking at them, observing how they stand, move, react - really taking your time and listening/watching. We could have a look at photos such as those I show in this blog post https://stephaniebloomsaddlefitter.co.uk/blog-and-resources/wonky-donkeys and see if there's anything obvious?
 
I would test for pssm get him off the high calorie feed just give him some basic chaff.

I would consider him being turned away for a bit to just chill down some horses just don't cope well with box rest.

My Arabi has done a few stints of box rest over the years and the first few months of ridden work was bloody difficult he was just a wild thing, he did eventually settle but the slightest thing used to set him off in the early days.
 
I too am so sorry you're in this position. As you say you wish he could talk, I wonder whether it's worth a session with Robert Pring (horse communicator)? I have a couple of friends who have used him with huge success, and he has been able to identify the "pea under the mattresses" issue with their horses, at the end of a long and exhuasting road in each case, that has made all the difference once addressed. Both friends were sceptics, but felt it was worth a try at the points they were at so they knew they'd not left any stone unturned, and given the cost was reasonable. Given their experiences and recommendations, I would try him now if I ever needed to.
 
There's been loads of really useful thoughts and advice on here. Just wanted to check - was it your horse or you that fell in the ditch at the bottom of the steep slope? As I'd have really serious concerns about riding a horse that didn't have enough self preservation to stop itself from falling due to either pain or being naughty. To me that's a whole other level than doing something and the rider falling off. If he did fall and it wasn't just you please make sure you mention it to any rider who is getting on him so that they know what they are dealing with and can be prepared/ change their approach.
 
Kirstd33 said:
Many thanks for your comments, prior to getting back on him I did however do at least 8 weeks of inhand walking twice daily at 6am/6pm going from 5 mins twice daily to 40 mins twice daily before the vet gave me the green light to get on him as I'm only smallish at 8.5 stone and he felt he was ready? Apparently the exercise is needed following his type of surgery to prevent scar adhesions forming in haphazard fashions, so the ligaments need to be worked but in a controlled and graded fashion?

he just wouldn't be capable of more than 5 mins trot and any attempts at canter have resulted in those moments i captured in the clips you've seen and far worse. I do agree though I think there is still pain there, although saddle has been re-fitted twice lately, and he's had chiro and physio.
Oh i wish he could talk!
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That is the correct rehab protocol for the surgery you had done. I walked for weeks and weeks with mine and i can categorically say it was the best thing for her.

Changing saddle was the next best thing. What brand are you currently in? Cobs are hard to fit and my smaller one would either do the plunging nonsense or stop dead when she didn't like hers. Thankfully she's a sweet natured little girl so I knew it wasn't malicious. In trot she generally would ask to walk quite quickly and in canter her head would go down.

I didn't operate on her annular ligaments but she's still not a huge fan of trotting with a rider on board and I think that must be something to do with how those hind legs take the weight given she'll floaty trot around the field fine. Canters OK on both leads.

We mainly walk hack (for miles) with a bit of trot but usually canter where the ground allows and that works for her. The saddle change was the biggest improvement though.

As AE said above though PTS is not a welfare issue and given your own medical history it's completely understandable if you don't want to ride a potentially bucking pony. I wouldn't pass on though xx
 
There’s a very weird ad on the local community and horsey pages posted by someone looking for a loan horse. Sometimes it’s to be ridden, sometimes not. She goes into great detail about how the loss of her last horse Dexter affected her mentally, and how she’s looking for a new horse to love. I posted about her on the ridiculous posts you see on FB HHO thread.

Initials are AH. She’s just posted the request up again. Frankly sounds bat sh1t crazy at the least, or possibly even a more sinister front for mopping up freebies and selling on.

This is a long winded way of saying I wouldn't loan him out as a companion, there are some horrible people out there.
 
just an update, this morning I have a well respected local equine trainer and behaviouralist coming out to see coblet and discuss his “quirks” to see if it something we can work through. Ideally she’d like him on schooling/rehab livery but that’s something we can discuss this if I think she’s a good fit. I have also looked tentatively at a companion loan home and believe I may have one lined up which would be perfect, so that’s plan B. Still desperately sad about the situation but have some perspective on it now and trying to be a little more pragmatic and less emotive.
 
So the young (aren’t they all!) lady has been and spent a good hour with us listening to the long convoluted back story of coblet and how we’ve ended up where we are. I struggled to answer the “so what do you hope to achieve from my riding him” and waffled something about another more experienced opinion needed as to the route cause of his behaviour and not leaving a stone unturned before I decide to retire him or not. She probably thought I was a mad novice menopausal woman but was too polite and said she’ll be back in the morning to ride him. She was quiet, considered, liked him and he her, and we seemed aligned in her gentle natural horsemanship approach so we shall see how she gets on.
 
Kirstd33 said:
So the young (aren’t they all!) lady has been and spent a good hour with us listening to the long convoluted back story of coblet and how we’ve ended up where we are. I struggled to answer the “so what do you hope to achieve from my riding him” and waffled something about another more experienced opinion needed as to the route cause of his behaviour and not leaving a stone unturned before I decide to retire him or not. She probably thought I was a mad novice menopausal woman but was too polite and said she’ll be back in the morning to ride him. She was quiet, considered, liked him and he her, and we seemed aligned in her gentle natural horsemanship approach so we shall see how she gets on.
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Good luck for tomorrow. Let us know how she gets on!
 
So for the first 15 mins at walk all good, she rode and my daughter and I walked alongside him. Then we opened out into the local parkland and she had a short canter, again all good and no shenanigans. I was beginning to feel like a fraud and it was all me, then she asked to take him 300 mtrs away from us and started asking him for some trot and shallow short canter, and he started escalating his behaviour, starting with the head shaking, then the humping, a couple of full on bronks and then he tried running off back towards where we were standing! She handled it terrifically keeping calm and quiet and really is a terribly nice rider. We walked back to the yard to cool him off as he was very hot and sweaty. She feels it’s behavioural as she said he felt very sound, and that his behavioural escalations are learnt to try to get himself back to a place or people of safety which actually makes 100% sense as thinking back when I it’s just me and him in a new place he actually doesn’t pull any shapes? So that was an interesting insight. However she would like him to see the vet one more time to get the green light to be able gently to challenge these ridden habits. Of which again I agree as he hasn’t seen the very now for 7-8 weeks since his last progress check.
My options now are either have her out to us again or send him there for gently “schooling “ livery but with not a lot of arena work?
What are people’s thoughts?
 
I'm Dun said:
Id do nothing until I had ruled out PSSM. You might waste a huge amount of money on schooling if it is that. Its almost never behavioural, and this makes it sound even less like its behavioural.
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I will test for PSSM yes but just curious why you think it sounds even less like it’s behavioural?
 
I'm another one who thinks it would be worth testing for PSSM. Everything you have said your Coblet is doing, mine did the same. If I remember correctly a massive percentage of cobs are suspected to be affected by it, despite there being somewhat complete denial in some circles.

Symptoms started aged 5 as he began his riding career. Sudden explosive behaviour, head tossing, shooting forward for no apparent reason, bronks, rearing, not liking canter etc etc. He was deemed dangerous (behavioural) by people way more experienced than me.
By sheer good luck I found the symptoms of PSSM and could tick almost every box. I tested him and sadly she was homozygous P1/P1. He wasn't dangerous because of behavioural issues, he was in extreme pain.

We followed the diet and exercise advice and it made some difference at first. I learned his triggers the main one being a drop in temperature. We took each day as it came, sometimes he was rideable quite often he wasn't. The difference the temperature made was unreal. It was like owning two different horses, the summer one and the winter one. As time went on things got worse and his symptoms were less easy to manage, he was PTS aged 9.
It is the single worst and most heartbreaking thing I have had to deal with in decades of owning horses. He was the sweetest, kindest boy, who gave his all despite the crap hand he had been dealt.

In your situation I would try him on the PSSM diet and supplement him with vitamin E until I could get the results of testing him
 
SEL said:
Pssm can present very much like you describe - & many trainers think it is behavioural because they haven't come across it. I'd rule it out too
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Yes this. Mine went one of two ways, lazy and backward from the off, or fine for a while then explosive. PSSM is a funny thing, the majority of people haven't heard of it or don't understand what it is, and it can present as behavioural. When mine was explosive I honestly thought it was nappy behaviour, she behaved like every nappy horse Id ever ridden. Head up, fast heart rate etc, and she could be ridden through it with a competent rider. She wasn't nappy at all, she was hurting and struggling.

It might not be PSSM, but given the breed and the behaviour you need to rule it out before you spend money on schooling. I spent a fortune having mine schooled as she was very green under saddle, and some days she would be fantastic, others terrible. There was no consistent improvement until we got the PSSM under control and then she changed dramatically and quickly. It was like having a different pony.
 
Mine ended up injured because the riders I was paying to school her didn't recognise tight muscles and a horse struggling to go forward rather than napping. She's never really come back from that.

It doesn't help that the vet community are still taught "most horses aren't affected by it". I have a new young vet who said she'd never come across it and was astounded I have had to retire. I would bet she has come across it but she just doesn't know that she has.
 
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