Please could someone confirm this is ok

[onemoretime]

I make up my evening feed and the following mornings feed each morning, I add the vitamins (Equinox) and some Yea Sacc and Calmag but leave it dry and just damp it before giving it to my mare. Are the vitamins alright left in the dry feed like this or does this make them less active. (I hope this makes sense)

 

[Sossigpoker]

They should be fine. I do the same.

 

[Red-1]

When I would go away competing for a week, I would make and bag the full week's feeds, dry, in plastic bags, tied off.

Always fine.

 

[onemoretime]

Ah thanks for that Sassigpoker, Ive been doing it for years then read somewhere that the vitamins dont work so well if made up in feed earlier but it may be if it has been dampened and then left. Love the name by the way.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

There is no difference to the structure nor value of the vitamins if they sit in their own tub for the night or if they sit in a bucket of feed.

 

[Sossigpoker]

Ah thanks for that Sassigpoker, Ive been doing it for years then read somewhere that the vitamins dont work so well if made up in feed earlier but it may be if it has been dampened and then left. Love the name by the way.

Magnesium is water soluble so if you made it in advance and dampened it, that would make it "go off" but mixing into dry feed shouldn't make a difference

 

[PurBee]

It should be fine providing you keep out light and oxygen off the feed - - the 2 things which most nutrients are degraded by.

Like a sealed bag in a dark place as red-1 mentioned doing.

its probably why premixing with water is the worst, as thst has plenty of oxygen in the water.

Heres a link about the sensitivity of various nutrients to light/ph/oxygen etc:

https://www.asi.k-state.edu/research-and-extension/swine/swinenutritionguide/vitaminstability.html

I often wonder about tubs of mineral/vitamin mixes. As we go through the tub theres more and more oxygen in there as the tub empties. Surprised they dont supply a wax cap inner paper lid to place on top to protect against oxygen in the tub, as we make out way through it.

I dont know about degradation times - that info is trickier to find. As youre doing this 12/24hrs in advance, i cant see there would be that much spoilage - but there could be some.

I have an excellent 70’s nutrient book by a biochemist who‘s lab work discovered even by vigorously shaking a bottle of fruit juice to mix contents resulted in some vitamin loss! I get weird looks by guests when i’m carefully swaying fruit juice bottles back and forth like a newborn baby before pouring ?

 

[Christmascinnamoncookie]

Does anyone know if it’s ok to pre-prepare feeds with added Danilon for feeding the next day-with soaked fast fibre? I worry that the efficacy might diminish.

 

[Sossigpoker]

Does anyone know if it’s ok to pre-prepare feeds with added Danilon for feeding the next day-with soaked fast fibre? I worry that the efficacy might diminish.

We just put the sachet in the feed bowl , to be opened by who ever does the feeding.

 

[Christmascinnamoncookie]

We just put the sachet in the feed bowl , to be opened by who ever does the feeding.

I do sometimes but for ease of my sharer, I often make up feeds the night before so she can just sling it in.

 

[Lois Lame]

I was also thinking about light and oxygen.

 

[J&S]

If /when I go to do my friends' horses their meds are still in the sachets and left on top of the feed. It only takes a second to open and sprinkle.

I do sometimes but for ease of my sharer, I often make up feeds the night before so she can just sling it in.

 

[ycbm]

Magnesium is water soluble so if you made it in advance and dampened it, that would make it "go off" but mixing into dry feed shouldn't make a difference

Magnesium metal reacts with water, but not magnesium oxide. I soak my feed all night and it's always there at the bottom of the bucket Also, anything you are feeding for the minerals, the mineral molecules are still there even if they have changed into a different form by being wet. But I think most of them will only change if they are put into a chemical like acid, not water.
.

 

[ycbm]

its probably why premixing with water is the worst, as thst has plenty of oxygen in the water.

Wee flaw in your argument here PB, sorry. Stuff that reacts with oxygen generally reacts with O² which floats about in the air.

Water does have a lot of oxygen in it but it's bound to hydrogen as H²0, so it isn't available to react with. Water is tough stuff, it doesn't like breaking that hydrogen/oxygen bond very much.

I suspect soaking in water actually reduces degradation by exposure to oxygen.
.

 

[criso]

I premix dry ingredients and add water or wet ingredients just before feeding.

The reason I do this is some of the minerals taste nasty and if they sit in the damp feed overnight the taste seems stronger, a bit like marinading food.

 

[ycbm]

Does anyone know if it’s ok to pre-prepare feeds with added Danilon for feeding the next day-with soaked fast fibre? I worry that the efficacy might diminish.

I think they are enteric coated, CT, to get through the stomach undigested. I think wetting them would destroy the coating, sorry ?

 

[The Xmas Furry]

I premix dry ingredients and add water or wet ingredients just before feeding.

The reason I do this is some of the minerals taste nasty and if they sit in the damp feed overnight the taste seems stronger, a bit like marinading food.

I do same too, tho hard drugs are added at point of mixing to feed.
Means I can add room temp water if necessary on cold days from the travelling flask or bottle.

Nothing worse than going to feed others nags (if I'm helping out another yard) and finding frozen feeds on a sub zero temp morning, because they have added wet ingredients or water the night before!

 

[Flowerofthefen]

There are a few supplements on the market that advise to be added just before feeding. Obviously you need to read the instructions! I feed keyflow pink mash and can only feed it in the evening as its not supposed to be wet for more than 2 hours before feeding.

 

[Annagain]

I think they are enteric coated, CT, to get through the stomach undigested. I think wetting them would destroy the coating, sorry ?

I think the coating is only for palatability so while it's better to feed it fresh (and dry) so the taste is masked, wetting doesn't make it less effective. There is an argument that the coating also makes it easier on the tummy when used long term but I believe studies have disproved this now. Even if it was the case, wetting wouldn't make it less effective as a pain killer, you'd just potentially have more GI side-effects

 

[PurBee]

Wee flaw in your argument here PB, sorry. Stuff that reacts with oxygen generally reacts with O² which floats about in the air.

Water does have a lot of oxygen in it but it's bound to hydrogen as H²0, so it isn't available to react with. Water is tough stuff, it doesn't like breaking that hydrogen/oxygen bond very much.

I suspect soaking in water actually reduces degradation by exposure to oxygen.
.

The redox reaction would occur within pure water when minerals are added, as minerals are the general catalysts used to break the bond of hydrogen and oxygen in water, by electrical donation processes.

im not sure how long these chemicals reactions take - it probably varies depending on specific mineral catalyst used - but if we consider a mineral horse mix containing salt/copper/alkaline minerals/magnesium/cobalt and vitamins - theres plenty of redox catalysts there as a mix to get the chemical processes happening probably quite quickly.

Thats why if we could mix a mineral mix in a very full bottle of water, the oxydation of the water and hydrogen would occur via mineral electrical donation exchange, the hydrogen would be released as a gas, float to the top of the bottle, if we dont take the cap off ,the bottle will swell, eventually explode, if we remove the cap there will be a ’pop’. Similar to the swelling of gone-off milk or orange juice cartons.

tap water is rarely pure and has nitrates and mineral deposits to various degrees, so its status as ‘pure water’ would already be compromised, with oxidation having occurred via the common contaminants - heavy mineral contaminants is what we would call ‘stale’ water as opposed to truly fresh water.

Heres a quora post on the reduction of h2o with just salt added. Im sure companies who provide liquid mineral mixes use a process to protect the natural redox reaction occurring in their products, if they use water as a base - but ive no idea how they do that!


“2Na + H2O -> Na2O + H2

Sodium undergoes oxidation - oxidation number changed from 0 to +1. Water undergoes reduction to form Hydrogen gas - oxidation number of Hydrogen changed from +1 to 0. Therefore it is a redox reaction.

We can also interpret this reaction as: Sodium displaces Hydrogen in H2O to form Sodium Oxide and Hydrogen gas is liberated.

In fact, all simple displacement reactions are redox reactions. Hope this helps.”

https://www.quora.com/When-sodium-r...dox-reaction-or-displacement-reaction?share=1

 

[onemoretime]

It should be fine providing you keep out light and oxygen off the feed - - the 2 things which most nutrients are degraded by.

Like a sealed bag in a dark place as red-1 mentioned doing.

its probably why premixing with water is the worst, as thst has plenty of oxygen in the water.

Heres a link about the sensitivity of various nutrients to light/ph/oxygen etc:

https://www.asi.k-state.edu/research-and-extension/swine/swinenutritionguide/vitaminstability.html

I often wonder about tubs of mineral/vitamin mixes. As we go through the tub theres more and more oxygen in there as the tub empties. Surprised they dont supply a wax cap inner paper lid to place on top to protect against oxygen in the tub, as we make out way through it.

I dont know about degradation times - that info is trickier to find. As youre doing this 12/24hrs in advance, i cant see there would be that much spoilage - but there could be some.

I have an excellent 70’s nutrient book by a biochemist who‘s lab work discovered even by vigorously shaking a bottle of fruit juice to mix contents resulted in some vitamin loss! I get weird looks by guests when i’m carefully swaying fruit juice bottles back and forth like a newborn baby before pouring ?

Thanks for that PurBee that is interesting. Agree about the tubs that we open and are in use.

 

[onemoretime]

We just put the sachet in the feed bowl , to be opened by who ever does the feeding.

I do this if anyone has to have medication.

 

[Birker2020]

When I would go away competing for a week, I would make and bag the full week's feeds, dry, in plastic bags, tied off.

Always fine.

I do this when I go on holiday to make it simple for the staff.

 

[Birker2020]

Does anyone know if it’s ok to pre-prepare feeds with added Danilon for feeding the next day-with soaked fast fibre? I worry that the efficacy might diminish.

For years I would make up Bails breakfast feed with bute and speedi beet/water in the feed to mix it all in the night before as the staff don't wet feeds as par the course before feeding (not sure why to be honest). And it never had any detrimental effect as far as I know. I look on the leaflet off the internet about bute but it didn't say. Dampening of the veterinary medicinal product in feed 5 minutes prior to feeding has been shown to have no detrimental influence on the palatability of the product. However, the influence of prolonged dampening on palatability or stability of the product is not known.

I do the same with Lari's breakfast feed and his Acid Ease and I always make sure the feed is wet well the night before and mix it in then. I don't think it loses potency wet.

If its going to be a very cold or minus degrees over night I tend to put a bag over the top of the made up feed which I always store in a metal dustbin ready for morning staff to feed. I'd rather make sure the feed is wet than risk it being dry and horse choking on supplement powder.

 

[onemoretime]

The redox reaction would occur within pure water when minerals are added, as minerals are the general catalysts used to break the bond of hydrogen and oxygen in water, by electrical donation processes.

im not sure how long these chemicals reactions take - it probably varies depending on specific mineral catalyst used - but if we consider a mineral horse mix containing salt/copper/alkaline minerals/magnesium/cobalt and vitamins - theres plenty of redox catalysts there as a mix to get the chemical processes happening probably quite quickly.

Thats why if we could mix a mineral mix in a very full bottle of water, the oxydation of the water and hydrogen would occur via mineral electrical donation exchange, the hydrogen would be released as a gas, float to the top of the bottle, if we dont take the cap off ,the bottle will swell, eventually explode, if we remove the cap there will be a ’pop’. Similar to the swelling of gone-off milk or orange juice cartons.

tap water is rarely pure and has nitrates and mineral deposits to various degrees, so its status as ‘pure water’ would already be compromised, with oxidation having occurred via the common contaminants - heavy mineral contaminants is what we would call ‘stale’ water as opposed to truly fresh water.

Heres a quora post on the reduction of h2o with just salt added. Im sure companies who provide liquid mineral mixes use a process to protect the natural redox reaction occurring in their products, if they use water as a base - but ive no idea how they do that!


“2Na + H2O -> Na2O + H2

Sodium undergoes oxidation - oxidation number changed from 0 to +1. Water undergoes reduction to form Hydrogen gas - oxidation number of Hydrogen changed from +1 to 0. Therefore it is a redox reaction.

We can also interpret this reaction as: Sodium displaces Hydrogen in H2O to form Sodium Oxide and Hydrogen gas is liberated.

In fact, all simple displacement reactions are redox reactions. Hope this helps.”

https://www.quora.com/When-sodium-r...dox-reaction-or-displacement-reaction?share=1

You've left me miles behind PurBee you obviously know your stuff. Are you a Scientist? Many thanks for your input to this thread.

 

[Birker2020]

The redox reaction would occur within pure water when minerals are added, as minerals are the general catalysts used to break the bond of hydrogen and oxygen in water, by electrical donation processes.

im not sure how long these chemicals reactions take - it probably varies depending on specific mineral catalyst used - but if we consider a mineral horse mix containing salt/copper/alkaline minerals/magnesium/cobalt and vitamins - theres plenty of redox catalysts there as a mix to get the chemical processes happening probably quite quickly.

Thats why if we could mix a mineral mix in a very full bottle of water, the oxydation of the water and hydrogen would occur via mineral electrical donation exchange, the hydrogen would be released as a gas, float to the top of the bottle, if we dont take the cap off ,the bottle will swell, eventually explode, if we remove the cap there will be a ’pop’. Similar to the swelling of gone-off milk or orange juice cartons.

tap water is rarely pure and has nitrates and mineral deposits to various degrees, so its status as ‘pure water’ would already be compromised, with oxidation having occurred via the common contaminants - heavy mineral contaminants is what we would call ‘stale’ water as opposed to truly fresh water.

Heres a quora post on the reduction of h2o with just salt added. Im sure companies who provide liquid mineral mixes use a process to protect the natural redox reaction occurring in their products, if they use water as a base - but ive no idea how they do that!


“2Na + H2O -> Na2O + H2

Sodium undergoes oxidation - oxidation number changed from 0 to +1. Water undergoes reduction to form Hydrogen gas - oxidation number of Hydrogen changed from +1 to 0. Therefore it is a redox reaction.

We can also interpret this reaction as: Sodium displaces Hydrogen in H2O to form Sodium Oxide and Hydrogen gas is liberated.

In fact, all simple displacement reactions are redox reactions. Hope this helps.”

https://www.quora.com/When-sodium-r...dox-reaction-or-displacement-reaction?share=1

Sorry to hijack post OP but Purbee obviously knows what he/she are talking about and my mind was blown after the first sentence if I'm being honest.

So in short can you mix Acid Ease with water and leave overnight to be fed the next morning as staff don't water feeds? You are talking 12/14 hours?

 

[ycbm]

I think the coating is only for palatability so while it's better to feed it fresh (and dry) so the taste is masked, wetting doesn't make it less effective. There is an argument that the coating also makes it easier on the tummy when used long term but I believe studies have disproved this now. Even if it was the case, wetting wouldn't make it less effective as a pain killer, you'd just potentially have more GI side-effects

My understanding is that Danilon is enteric coated bute. If so the coating is not for palatability, it's designed to get the drug out of the stomach and into the foregut before it is released so that it doesn't cause stomach ulcers. If you soak that overnight, it's probably going to destroy the function of the coating and you might as well feed cheaper uncoated bute powder.
.

 

[Birker2020]

You'd think that these drug companies might realise that in the 'real world' not everyone can attend to their horse morning noon and night and there may be occasions (like every day for some folk like myself) when we can't go up before work and therefore we have the issue whether to pre soak feed for the next morning or not when it contains bute or supplements.

 

[ycbm]

The redox reaction would occur within pure water when minerals are added, as minerals are the general catalysts used to break the bond of hydrogen and oxygen in water, by electrical donation processes.

im not sure how long these chemicals reactions take - it probably varies depending on specific mineral catalyst used - but if we consider a mineral horse mix containing salt/copper/alkaline minerals/magnesium/cobalt and vitamins - theres plenty of redox catalysts there as a mix to get the chemical processes happening probably quite quickly.

Thats why if we could mix a mineral mix in a very full bottle of water, the oxydation of the water and hydrogen would occur via mineral electrical donation exchange, the hydrogen would be released as a gas, float to the top of the bottle, if we dont take the cap off ,the bottle will swell, eventually explode, if we remove the cap there will be a ’pop’. Similar to the swelling of gone-off milk or orange juice cartons.

tap water is rarely pure and has nitrates and mineral deposits to various degrees, so its status as ‘pure water’ would already be compromised, with oxidation having occurred via the common contaminants - heavy mineral contaminants is what we would call ‘stale’ water as opposed to truly fresh water.

Heres a quora post on the reduction of h2o with just salt added. Im sure companies who provide liquid mineral mixes use a process to protect the natural redox reaction occurring in their products, if they use water as a base - but ive no idea how they do that!


“2Na + H2O -> Na2O + H2

Sodium undergoes oxidation - oxidation number changed from 0 to +1. Water undergoes reduction to form Hydrogen gas - oxidation number of Hydrogen changed from +1 to 0. Therefore it is a redox reaction.

We can also interpret this reaction as: Sodium displaces Hydrogen in H2O to form Sodium Oxide and Hydrogen gas is liberated.

In fact, all simple displacement reactions are redox reactions. Hope this helps.”

https://www.quora.com/When-sodium-r...dox-reaction-or-displacement-reaction?share=1

I understand what you are saying, but nevertheless it's actually really quite hard to get water to splt into oxygen and hydrogen otherwise we'd have gone straight for hydrogen cars not electric ones.

We can also interpret this reaction as: Sodium displaces Hydrogen in H2O to form Sodium Oxide and Hydrogen gas is liberated.

Taking this part of your post for example, you can add a great whack of household salt (sodium) to water , H²0, without being in the slightest danger of a hydrogen explosion if you are smoking a fag. Sodium as a pure metal releases significant quantities of hydrogen from water, that you can set light to, but any sodium compound used in a horses feed doesn't and would be dangerous if it did ?

I have quite a problem believing that a feed left damp overnight is going to result in major reduction in the value of a vitamin and mineral balancer for any reason, oxidation or otherwise. Always happy to be educated otherwise though ?
.

 

[ycbm]

You'd think that these drug companies might realise that in the 'real world' not everyone can attend to their horse morning noon and night and there may be occasions (like every day for some folk like myself) when we can't go up before work and therefore we have the issue whether to pre soak feed for the next morning or not when it contains bute or supplements.

They can't change the laws of chemistry, Birker.
.