please help - andalusian yanking his head to the floor when ridden :(

Odd Socks

Odd Socks

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Sorry, this might be a long one and before anyone asks, he's had back, teeth, saddle checked, physio - all fine/no change.

Okay so my mum has had an ongoing and progressively worsening problem with her Andalusian. When ridden he seriously yanks his head all the way to the floor continuously - I don't mean a bit of snatching at the bit, I mean full force, head to the floor. He does this whether or not there is any rein contact and it has got so bad that she cannot get on without someone holding his head up - and its no easy task!

We've had the vet out twice for this. The first was newly qualified, she didn't have a clue but recommended physio and bute - made no difference.

We then got the senior practice vet out today who also has no clue - and this is worrying. He trotted up fine, lunged fine (if not somewhat excitable) and as soon as mum went to get on, IT started. The vet was there for ages and said that he could not find anything pain related - he definitely had a good poke around. He also said in the back of his mind he is thinking headshaking or something neurological but he's 12(I think!) and this has only been going on for the past few months and we've had him about 5 years and he only does it under saddle.

The vet has recommended bone scans to rule out KS although he's pretty sure its not this and then further work-up. In Liverpool! - We are in south east so its a very long way to go so I'm thinking it will be serious.

I don't really know what I'm asking but I guess just if anyone has had any experience with something of this nature? If not only, when we go to Liverpool to say..."have you thought about X?"

Thank you so much for reading - veggie percy pigs if you made it this far :)
 
No idea but there is a BAPSH Facebook page where there are lots of experienced Andalusian owners, breeders and importers who are more than willing to help.
 
Well if it's not KS / saddle related , I would be thinking head shaking / neurological as well and Liverpool is the place to go to for that too.
Only one other thing who checked the teeth where ok ?
 
My first thought is to get the saddle checked. I know you've said you've had his back checked but presumably this was untacked. My mare started bronking completely out of character and her saddle was too wide, obviously pressing down at the front. Swapped saddles and she was back to her old self immediately.
Just reread you've had saddle checked already perhaps get that checked again as they can lose condition at this time of year.
 
Goldenstar said:
Well if it's not KS / saddle related , I would be thinking head shaking / neurological as well and Liverpool is the place to go to for that too.
Only one other thing who checked the teeth where ok ?
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I've heard Liverpool is the best equipped for investigating neurological issues which is good, in a way. :o

The teeth were checked by a very experienced teeth lady - we have used her for years, she knows everything about everything and I would bet my life that if she says teeth are fine, they are fine :)
 
Passtheshampoo said:
My first thought is to get the saddle checked. I know you've said you've had his back checked but presumably this was untacked. My mare started bronking completely out of character and her saddle was too wide, obviously pressing down at the front. Swapped saddles and she was back to her old self immediately.
Just reread you've had saddle checked already perhaps get that checked again as they can lose condition at this time of year.
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He has had saddles checked recently - he has two; dressage and GP and does it in both :(

As for doing it bareback, I'm honestly not sure as my mum is reluctant to try. I don't mind having a go but not sure how much good it will do if the vet doesn't think it's pain related and yes, he does it with me on as well.
 
I had a horse on loan that did this quite a lot, I think he was just stretching his back as he had been out of work and his saddle definitely didn't fit (I gave him back before I could get it sorted), he would do it more if you were on a hack for longer than expected, I often took it as a cue that I could get off and walk for a bit, so given that correlation I would say it is likely to be a saddle/back issue and I would personally get someone who checks saddles AND backs as there are quite a few people who do that these days.

It's annoying to think you can't trust a saddle fitter or whoever that you have paid, but it happens, quite a lot!
 
hmm... I'm not convinced that it is the saddle but am going to hop on bareback tomorrow just to test the theory although mum says that I'll just go flying over his head. I am willing to fall on my head only once to rule it out though so I'll let you know.

I just think that what are the odds that two saddles fitted by two different saddlers and endless variation of numnah cause the same reaction when the vet prodding and poking his back couldnt even make him flinch. I would expect at least some relief from either a very thick or very thin numnah, but nothing.

Also, if it was something as simple as a saddle, why have we been recommended to treck to liverpool.

Sorry, not quashing anyone's advice - I really am grateful - just thinking aloud really :( just have in my gut that its going to be something BAD
 
How experienced a rider is your mum? Without sounding awful, could he be taking advantage of her? If she doesn't already, would it be worth having a lesson and asking instructor's advice?
 
Hehe, my mum is very experienced. Both her and I have over 20 years experience each :P he does it with me too. it starts before you even get on. Vet doesn't think its behavioural. Good point though - probably should have mentioned that.

ETA - just to mention, he has also had bit and bridle changed in case he had an aversion to poll / noseband pressure, took flash off but still to no avail.
 
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Well I hope you get sorted. I've dealt with Liverpool for my horse's sarcoids treatment and they were excellent
 
What your horse is doing is a symptom of the saddle being too tight at the front so I would try riding bareback and see if there is any change, hope you get to the bottom of it.
 
Hi there,

If you are a little reluctant to jump straight into going all the way up to Liverpool, I would strongly recommend looking for a qualified equine behaviour consultant to come out first. A good equine behaviour consultant, who will only work from a veterinary referral, will go through everything in your horses history (that you know of) and is much more likely than most other people to be able to pin point what may have been the trigger for the start of the behaviour. It sounds like it may be really worthwhile in your case, especially as the behaviour only started fairly recently, and when the vet cannot find any signs of pain. Would be happy to recommend someone with proper qualifications in your area if you let me know where exactly you are based.

The other thing that may be worth looking into is having a thermology imaging session done. This is basically a bunch of thermal photos that are taken, which can locate hot spots, or potential painful areas. There is quite a bit of uncertainty about the reliability of these (in particular amongst vets), but I do know of some people who have used this and managed to pin point an exact location of an inflamed area, which they have then been able to find out the problem from. May be worth considering before travelling all the way to Liverpool?

Good luck!
 
Have you changed his girth before it started? My WBdid this and bowing down (literally touching hischest onthe floor with back legs still normal) his saddle was fine as was his bridle/back and teeth :) only thing that stopped him doing this and as yours putting his chin onthe floor was to change to a doulble ended elastic girth with a sheepskin girth cover on. It also started suddenly and after years of being 'normal' albeit a little quirky to ride. Hope you manage to sort him out. To add Liverpool dealt with my PRE mare when she did he shoulder sweeny as a two year old, they were fab, vets didn't have a clue locally whatshe'd done, Liverpool took one look and knew exactly what was wrong and what to do. Well worth the trip but then it's only 30-40 miles away from me.
 
I'm far too inexperienced to offer advice, so please forgive me if I'm way off here!

Our lad (mostly Spanish) sometimes drops his head. My instructor told me a trick to get horses to raise their heads again (as opposed to hauling them up using the reins) is to send a 'shiver' down my legs. It seems to work! :)

Those Spanish horses are smarter than most, could it be that he's learnt that dropping his head gets you to stop doing what you're doing and therefore stops him from having to do what he's told? :confused:
 
I used to ride a welsh who did this. It stemmed from an inexperienced rider holding onto his mouth whilst gripping with legs. Is it possible your mum has got nervous and has been holding his mouth more tightly than usual?
 
Wow, thank you all for such detailed responses. It is very possible that my mum has got anxious about him doing it which has exacerbated it but she wouldn't be hanging on his mouth, he does it with zero rein contact and it doesn't get him out of anything. She still continues to work him.

No changes of girth apart from the usual dressage to the gp.

Anna, yes please do pm me some reccommendations. We are in Bedfordshire.

I'm going to ride bareback tonight to rule out a whole shed load of possible causes. I will also try and get some video to show exactly what he does. I think if he still does it bare back, we will go down the Neuro or behaviourist route... Ho hum...

Thanks everyone for your suggestions so far :)
 
Have you had a good trainer come and observe? Maybe someone from a classical background, or one of the Enlightened Equitation teachers? Even though your mum is experienced it could be worth a try. I'm amazed sometimes at how a new set of eyes can help.
 
How did it go with bareback riding OP??

You said you were in the south east didn't you? just a suggestion, I am stabled at a PRE andalusian classical training yard in south east, so maybe worth a lesson there to see what they think. They are VERY experienced with the breed and have a load of horses they have rescued off people with all sorts of issues, so maybe worth an opinion if you are south east.
 
Hi odd socks, my horse started doing this last year , when riding his head would be on the floor, I thought this was saddle so got new saddle fitted , he got worse I would go to get on and his head went to the floor before I even picked up reins , there was something wrong, horse went to rossdales and was found to have a neck injury.
 
Could Liphook Equine Hospital not help? as Liphook and Liverpool are the main two in the UK. I don't know whether Liphook can look at this type of issue, but when my boy needed an operation, I had the choice of Liverpool or Liphook. So maybe look into that as well (as Liphook south east!)
 
figgy said:
Hi odd socks, my horse started doing this last year , when riding his head would be on the floor, I thought this was saddle so got new saddle fitted , he got worse I would go to get on and his head went to the floor before I even picked up reins , there was something wrong, horse went to rossdales and was found to have a neck injury.
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Had a friend who had a horse like this, neck injury confirmed by bone scan at Rossdales, steroids and physio and few months later horse back to its normal happy self

OP could you not look at getting a referral to one of the newmarket vets? Rossdales would be under an hour from you so alot less of a trec across the country
 
Just on my way to ride now so will let you know shortly.

The reason why we've been referred to Liverpool is because my vet thinks its Neuro. If we go to rossdales, Newmarket or even Cambridge and nothing comes from the bone scans etc then we would have to be referred on anyway as Liverpool is more equipped for dealing with it. May well be worth seeing if the other one is closer though, thank you.

My mum wouldn't have a lesson on him whilst he's like this, would be a waste of time as he's verging on unrideable :( she has already has lots of experienced eyes look at him, none of which can pinpoint it.

Anyway. Off to test the bareback theory! Fingers crossed I don't land on my head :)
 
Oh I see, Liverpool expert is nuero are they. I would just check if Liphook specialise in neuro as well, as they are one of the main hospitals also and in south so worth checking.

Good luck with the bare back riding, let us know how you get on.
 
SpanishNeddy said:
Oh I see, Liverpool expert is nuero are they. I would just check if Liphook specialise in neuro as well, as they are one of the main hospitals also and in south so worth checking.

Good luck with the bare back riding, let us know how you get on.
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Liverpool is a university who have specialised in research in equine neuro problems for years, Liphook is a big equine private pracise not really the same thing at all.
OP if it comes to it Liverpool is the place to go but I hope you can find the key before that's necessary.
 
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