Please help - dog pushing his boundaries with older dog.

[Starzaan]

Right, I'm feeling terrible at the moment having just pulled the Great Dane off my older boy, and would love any advice anyone has to offer.

In 2008 I took on a beautiful 7 month old Great Dane x Doberman from the Blue Cross. He'd had a hard start in life, and was absolutely perfect for me. He's my best friend, and I love him to bits. In 2010 I lost my old Bichon Frise, and Mole (the Dane x) got very lonely and was pining badly. I had been considering getting a Great Dane puppy for a while, so I took the plunge.

Initially, the two got on beautifully, and to an extent they still do. However, the purebred Dane is MUCH larger than Mole (he's big even by Great Dane standards), and is pushing it a bit. I had him castrated in 2011 as he was getting a bit big for his boots and that helped a lot. He was very well socialised, and is generally a sweet and loving dog.

However, recently he's started going for Mole, and meaning it. Just now, Mole walked past the sofa (yes, bad person, dogs on sofa!) where Gollum was lying, and Gollum flew at him. Mole is very sensitive, and I'm now sitting in the corner on his bed with him while I type this, and he's shaking like a leaf.

Gollum has never drawn blood, and we've always been around to stop anything going too far, but Mole will never stand up for himself, he's too gentle and submissive.

Is there anything I can do? Please help!

 

[piebaldsparkle]

Where is Gollum now? Back on the sofa?

 

[Superhot]

Do you have to leave them alone together or is it possible to keep them separate? Maybe keep Gollum muzzled if you have to leave them alone, and have a squirty water bottle ready when you are with them.
A friend had a similar problem after introducing a new pup, but in her case, it was the older dog attacking the younger, and causing serious damage. Ultimately, her mother took the older dog home, and when my friend visits, the 2 dogs are never left alone.

 

[PorkChop]

Can I just say - great names for your dogs

Does it happen at certain times of the day? Just at home? What I'm trying to say is there a pattern?

 

[Clodagh]

You won't be able to change the pecking order, but we have 3 bitches at home and they are OK as we are in charge, so they don't argue as there wouldn't be any gain - that is how I see it. Two of them are not friendly to each other, but they ignore each other, which is fine.

I would make yourself top dog - no more sofa, eat when you tell them they can, put Gollum back so he respects YOU.

I'm no trainer expert, thats just my thoughts.

 

[CAYLA]

It is indeed to do with firmer leadership, their has to be a consiquence for such an action, in this instance (he should have been booted out of the room) not so easy with a dane, but in here he would be botted out all the same (time out) from your company and a NEGATIVE association for his behaviour towards the other dog!!! if you just pulled him off and left it at that (it's not much of a deterrant) to do it again.
Anytime anywhere he displays this behaviour YOU step in and reprimand (use your voice).....whic eventually is all you will need! like you really mean it, and haul him out. When you allow him back in after a period alone let him settle (no fuss) or cuddles or ott affection, just let him settle down once again. If it happens over certain thing like him being on a chair (then indeed ban him from the chair) not because he thinks he is more DOMINANT just because he likes it and it's a NEGATIVE punishment for his behaviour (you act this way whilst on the chair) you get booted off the chair. If it's a jelously thing and he reacts when the other dogs comes to your for attention (then remove him from your attentions) NEGATIVE association for his behaviour and denying him what he wants (your attention) and driving the other dog AWAY!
Up the anti with the firm rules, DO NOT let any unwanted behaviour slide without firm words/vocals and (TIME OUT) away from you and the other dog and placed in isolation.
You DO NOT need to feed first and walk through doors first etc, you just need to beable to use a simple firmer tone of voice eventually to gain some respect and show your dogs there are 2 sides to you, and one should be (ooops, im off, im in bother) so that unwanted behaviours never even reache this far. He clearly thinks he can get away with this and thats why he tries his luck, so put a stop to this way of thinking. My whippet would do this (if he knew there was no consiquence)
I would air on the side of caution when NOT home to supervise and maybe use a baby gate if you can between them otherwise DO NOT perminantly seperate these dogs (you will create an even bigger issue) just hammer it home (when you are home) than any unwanted behaviour will NOT BE accepted.

 

[CorvusCorax]

As others. Main points of conflict for dogs can be when one is elevated (this can give a strong dog confidence and can make a weak dog unstable) and the other is not, doorways/gateways/points of entrance.

Do NOT sit and comfort the victim, it will make him more anxious, and more likely to be attacked (bullies go for the weak), be businesslike and brisk, hard as it may sound.

 

[Goldenstar]

No sofa for Gollum .

 

[_GG_]

Leave Mole alone. In fact, ignore them both for at least the next few days. Mole needs to be given time to grow up and get some self confidence which he won't be able to do if you are constantly reassuring him that he needs to be scared and submissive, which is what you do by comforting him.

Goldman needs to learn that he actually isn't important enough to be the one who makes decisions. So, no talking, no touching apart from just putting a lead on and off and no direct eye contact. Sofa is fine so long as he comes up when you ask him to and gets down when you tell him to...not because he decides he wants to be there. It is your sofa, not his. All my four go on the sofa...when called and It just takes a click of the fingers and point to the floor and they are straight down. Trust me....we have had the very same issue.

The biggest negative consequence for a dog or any pack type animal is to be banished, so as another poster said, if it happens again...no shouting, just stern businesslike noise to stop him and literally, physically, push him out of the room. He can't come back in until Mole has settled...but that won't take long provided you also ignore him.

Any squabbles in our lots and within a day of being ignored, they just tow the line again and go back to the happy bunch they are 99.9% of the time.

Whatever you do, do 't go all Cesar Milan and try to punish Gollum...you will never be able to do it the way a dog would....you are not a dog, don't try to be one and methods like that can get people very badly hurt.

Just be aloof. Like the dogs mean nothing to you, they don't exist, save to be walked and fed for a few days.

Expect some funny behaviour as the desperately try to get your attention, but stick with it and watch them change. They will be happier dogs for being given a chance to build a bit of self confidence and lose a bit of self importance

 

[stargirl88]

Agree with others - although I personally wouldn't extend the time out/ignoring over days - they wont have a clue why.

My time-outs last as long as they need to (has been as short as 20 secs - but sometimes its been 20 mins, etc) just until the dogs go back to a more neutral mind frame - then stop the time out. Thye will just become ineffective if they are drawn ou.t.

Would also stop sofa time for the time being - or again, as suggested - introduce an 'on/off' cue

 

[stargirl88]

Ps Id love to see your dane x dobe mix?!? Post a photo please

 

[lexiedhb]

A) Listen to CAYLA- time out works wonders - its what stopped my eejit biting arms/jumping up/humping- really quite quickly-

B) This is AAD you cant come in here claiming to have all these lovely sounding doggies and not provide pics!!!!!!!!!

 

[Nikki J]

Leave Mole alone. In fact, ignore them both for at least the next few days. Mole needs to be given time to grow up and get some self confidence which he won't be able to do if you are constantly reassuring him that he needs to be scared and submissive, which is what you do by comforting him.

Goldman needs to learn that he actually isn't important enough to be the one who makes decisions. So, no talking, no touching apart from just putting a lead on and off and no direct eye contact. Sofa is fine so long as he comes up when you ask him to and gets down when you tell him to...not because he decides he wants to be there. It is your sofa, not his. All my four go on the sofa...when called and It just takes a click of the fingers and point to the floor and they are straight down. Trust me....we have had the very same issue.

The biggest negative consequence for a dog or any pack type animal is to be banished, so as another poster said, if it happens again...no shouting, just stern businesslike noise to stop him and literally, physically, push him out of the room. He can't come back in until Mole has settled...but that won't take long provided you also ignore him.

Any squabbles in our lots and within a day of being ignored, they just tow the line again and go back to the happy bunch they are 99.9% of the time.

Whatever you do, do 't go all Cesar Milan and try to punish Gollum...you will never be able to do it the way a dog would....you are not a dog, don't try to be one and methods like that can get people very badly hurt.

Just be aloof. Like the dogs mean nothing to you, they don't exist, save to be walked and fed for a few days.

Expect some funny behaviour as the desperately try to get your attention, but stick with it and watch them change. They will be happier dogs for being given a chance to build a bit of self confidence and lose a bit of self importance

I agree - great advice - although with some reservations, I am a CM fan.

 

[Clodagh]

As an aside, I would stop the sofa, not because of dominance but if a dog can't sit on a sofa and be nice to who walks past it then it shouldn't be there. My lurcher sleeps on my lap in the evenings but if the other dogs come to see me she certainly isn't allowed to growl or be bossy, if she does then she is quick smart off and not back on that night, so she just doesn't do it.

 

[Starzaan]

Thank you very much for all your advice. I've implemented the time outs and it's worked brilliantly! In the past he was always banished to the kitchen if he got ridiculous about the sofa, and then not allowed back up, but now he is shut outside in his kennel and run if he is a brat, and we haven't had a problem for a good few weeks.

I am FAR too over-protective of Mole as he was a rescue from a truly hideous home and can find life quite difficult. That coupled with almost losing him in a freak accident last year has made me the over-protective dog owner from hell!

Thank you all so much for your advice - I will DEFINITELY be back if I have another problem.

Pictures of the boys, and one of Mole's injury!

(He was still a puppy in this one, sleeping with OH in the caravan at our old yard).

 

[Bossdog]

Omg, he is mahoosive! And what happened to Mole, that looks really nasty poor boy

 

[misterjinglejay]

I am having exactly the same issue with my nearly two year old entire mal, and my very quiet 10 year old entire samoyed. The mal, Hamish, seems to have hit teenage years and is pushing his luck.
The first time it happened, he locked his jaws on to Quigley, and held on - I had to twist his b*lls to get him to eventually let go. His grip was so strong.

Cue blood everywhere, vets for quigley and him acting like a victim, shaking, squeaking etc whenever Hamish walked by or even looked at him.

A friend of mine is a behaviourist and very experienced with sled dogs. She said that Hamish is testing boundaries, and Quig is making it worse by acting all scared. So we now have a zero tolerance house - no growling is allowed at all. Both dogs get told off for any noise or lip curling ( and the mal bitch who is never involved gets fuss) and then ignored for a few minutes, before 'releasing'.

After a week with a couple of setbacks, yesterday they were brilliant. Hamish knows his place, and Quigley actually looked happy and relaxed around him. I still don't trust the little bu**er, but it's so much better.

We had put Quigley in the position of top dog, due to age, temperament etc, but hadn't realised that he couldn't cope in that position. So now we are in charge and the dogs are relatively even.

My friend explained that not all dogs can be friends, even living in the same house, but they can exist and share a space together. And that's all we ask of them.

 

[misterjinglejay]

Also, try and ignore the shaking, as that can make it worse and attention rewards the dog for being scared.

 

[Starzaan]

Omg, he is mahoosive! And what happened to Mole, that looks really nasty poor boy

We have no idea. One minute they were playing chase around the yard, ran through a hedge and then he started screaming and ran to me, with his side hanging open. He went down to the ribs and did some serious damage. The whole right hand side of the wound - to the right of the stitches - became necrotic, and we had to have the stitches and the necrotic tissue removed, and then deal with it as an open wound. It was horrific, but my vets were incredible, and he was so brave and tolerant!

He's almost back to normal now, but the damage he did to the muscles has affected him. He gets stiff and sore on that foreleg now, and exercise has to be limited to just pottering about on the yard with me.

 

[CorvusCorax]

One thing I do really remember from the Cesar Milan stage show (I can hear the booing and hissing ) is that, no matter what horrible circumstances the dog comes from, feeling sorry for them does not help the dog.

The comparison was a paramedic telling someone in an accident: 'OMG! You're hurt real bad and you're going to die....but it's OK, I feel *sorry* for you!'

Keep up the good work

 

[Superhot]

I agree with CaveCanem. Dogs live in the 'now' so don't keep compensating for your dogs traumatic past. I hope the time outs continue to work, but if not, ultimately you might have to consider rehoming one of them...