Please help- full pedal bone rotation (not laminitus)

M

matchbox

Active Member
Joined
20 March 2007
Messages
41
Visit site
I took on a mare in January as a rescue, she had a club foot and intermittent lameness due to the severe trimming that had been done on her feet (especially her club foot). Her heels did not touch the ground and she walked only on her toe.

With barefoot trimming we were trying to slowly lower her heels. However she took a bad turn last week and has ended up in clinic at the vets. In her club foot she has fully pedal bone rotation with the pedal bone touching the ground. This has caused the blood vessels in her hoof to rupture and the hoof has filled with blood which they are now draining. There is no rotation in any other hoof.

The vet wants to cut the deep digital flexor tendon in the club foot to ease the pressure on the pedal bone but my trimmer does not agree with this so I'm looking for advice.

I've traced her history back and she raced on her club foot, retained out of racing into low level dressage before her owner emigrated and she was passed from pillar to post. So she has been riding sound on it before.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
 
I have an ongoing mysterious problem slightly similar to this which I WILL post abut soon, but a very much loved and trusted Oz vet friend has suggested cutting inferior check ligament. I would listen to your vet, he spent 5 years training and probably has years of experience on top of that.
 
Your vet wants to cut the ddft because he is assuming that it is pulling the back of the pedal bone up and sending the toe downwards into the sole like the other end of a seesaw.

Your trimmer does not think this is the right thing to do because he/she thinks that the toe of the pedal bone has dropped because it has lost its attachement to the hoof wall through failing laminae, and that the pull from the ddft is incidental.

I have no idea what I would do. As a barefooter I can see your trimmer's point. But I can also see that detachment in only one foot is not easily attributable to dietary, concussion, poison, cushings or any other form of laminitis.

Are you absolutely sure that the laminae in the other feet are healthy? Has he nerve blocked the club foot and is she still sound on the other one if he does? Is the diet low grass/no sugar/high fibre with a good mineral balance and magnesium oxide. Could it possibly be that she actually has laminitis, but that it only shows in the one foot as rotation because of the conformation of that foot?

If so, fix the diet/metabolic issue before you have the tendon cut. If not, you seem short of options, sorry :( I hope you get her fixed.
 
how old is the horse? the boxy foot may need to remain boxy to resume soundness, AND sorry are you insured? i would get your vet to recommend a very good remedial farrier to look at your horses feet. otherwise it might be a bang situaion!
 
i would get a good remedial farrier, sack the barefoot trimmer. and go from there. i wouldnt cut the ddft as a choice. effectively if you do this you will be de nerving. so yes your horse might be sound short term, but long term NO. if you cut the ddft you might have well put the horse down, it will only gain you 18 months.
 
ofcourseyoucan said:
how old is the horse? the boxy foot may need to remain boxy to resume soundness, AND sorry are you insured? i would get your vet to recommend a very good remedial farrier to look at your horses feet. otherwise it might be a bang situaion!
Click to expand...

She has just turned 6 :( She is insured for vets fees up to £5,000 per incident with Petplan.

I had a remedial farrier come out to see her on the recommendation of friends a couple of days before she went badly lame and into clinic, just to look at the club foot and angle and he seemed to think the problem wasn't insurmountable as she seemed unlevel rather than unsound but that if she went lame then the prognosis wasn't great.
 
cptrayes said:
Your vet wants to cut the ddft because he is assuming that it is pulling the back of the pedal bone up and sending the toe downwards into the sole like the other end of a seesaw.

Your trimmer does not think this is the right thing to do because he/she thinks that the toe of the pedal bone has dropped because it has lost its attachement to the hoof wall through failing laminae, and that the pull from the ddft is incidental.

I have no idea what I would do. As a barefooter I can see your trimmer's point. But I can also see that detachment in only one foot is not easily attributable to dietary, concussion, poison, cushings or any other form of laminitis.

Are you absolutely sure that the laminae in the other feet are healthy? Has he nerve blocked the club foot and is she still sound on the other one if he does? Is the diet low grass/no sugar/high fibre with a good mineral balance and magnesium oxide. Could it possibly be that she actually has laminitis, but that it only shows in the one foot as rotation because of the conformation of that foot?

If so, fix the diet/metabolic issue before you have the tendon cut. If not, you seem short of options, sorry :( I hope you get her fixed.
Click to expand...

He hasn't nerve blocked the foot but when it is padded and bandaged she is walking more soundly. I can ask the question about a nerve block though.

The horses are on a grazed paddock with ad-lib hay, and my mare gets a feed balancer which includes biotin and mag-ox and is recommended by the laminitus trust. She also gets alpha-a (the new low sugar & starch with no molasses one) they also have licks in the field. She is not currently in work.

She's been on a diet like this for 6 months now, and been seeing a barefoot trimmer for the 6 months also with a recent evaluation by a remedial farrier.

I feel stuck between a rock and a hard place at the minute and I feel that with her being so young it's not fair her being in this level of pain if the prognosis is not good.
 
ofcourseyoucan said:
i would get a good remedial farrier, sack the barefoot trimmer. and go from there. i wouldnt cut the ddft as a choice. effectively if you do this you will be de nerving. so yes your horse might be sound short term, but long term NO. if you cut the ddft you might have well put the horse down, it will only gain you 18 months.
Click to expand...

Thanks. I need to hear things like this so I can take it back to my vet. I'm meeting with him tomorrow evening to go through everything.
 
Have to agree with ofcourseyoucan. I would also be wondering if the trumming has added to your problems. If she was sound with the original walking on her toe, then maybe the change has been too much too quickly.
 
ofcourseyoucan said:
i would get a good remedial farrier, sack the barefoot trimmer. and go from there. i wouldnt cut the ddft as a choice. effectively if you do this you will be de nerving. so yes your horse might be sound short term, but long term NO. if you cut the ddft you might have well put the horse down, it will only gain you 18 months.
Click to expand...

And you think it is ethical to be nailing into a seriously compromised and painful foot like this? The "sack the trimmer and use a farrier" is an old argument now, these uninformed attitudes don't help really

You can't "fix" this hoof - you can only grow a better and more robust hoof and that will take 9-12 months

Presonally I think Alfalfa is the food of the devil and we shouldn't be feeding it to any horse that has the slightest suspicion of metabolic compromise!

Are you absolutely sure that the laminae in the other feet are healthy?
Click to expand...

This has to be asked.
 
I'm another who'd be looking at getting a really good remedial farrier to work with your vet before considering anything as drastic as cutting the ddft. Try to find out who is the top man in your area - do your vets or the hospital recommend anyone? - & do whatever you can to get him. You now have x-rays to work with so they can make a proper evaluation & trim/shoe accordingly (for the record not all farriery for this type of problem includes nails) & this, combined with careful management, may be enough to get her back to a good quality of life. It will take time, but in a 6yo that hopefully isn't an issue.

Good luck with her.
 
ofcourseyoucan said:
i would get a good remedial farrier, sack the barefoot trimmer. and go from there. i wouldnt cut the ddft as a choice. effectively if you do this you will be de nerving. so yes your horse might be sound short term, but long term NO. if you cut the ddft you might have well put the horse down, it will only gain you 18 months.
Click to expand...

I sort of agree with this.

You also need to consider most carefully what future your horse may have. Will it be pain free and does she have a secure for life home with you? If the answers to those are yes - I'd go ahead with the treatment recommended by your medical professional.

If the answer to those two questions are no - then I would have her put down today.
 
I had a horse with a club foot and the REASON he had a club foot was that his legs were slightly different lengths ie the leg with the club foot was shorter so the foot had grown more length to compensate.

There is no point trying to lower the heel on a foot like this as it is doing a job. If the horse was sound on it then it should have been left alone.

I suspect now the best thing you can do is put a wedge on the club foot to bring it back to it's original level and then let the foot grow back to where it was and then if you want to continue with barefoot take it from there.
 
foxy1 said:
I had a horse with a club foot and the REASON he had a club foot was that his legs were slightly different lengths ie the leg with the club foot was shorter so the foot had grown more length to compensate.

There is no point trying to lower the heel on a foot like this as it is doing a job. If the horse was sound on it then it should have been left alone.

I suspect now the best thing you can do is put a wedge on the club foot to bring it back to it's original level and then let the foot grow back to where it was and then if you want to continue with barefoot take it from there.
Click to expand...

My friend has one like this too and I agree that it should have been left alone if the horse was sound and not landing toe first.

I'm at a loss, though, to understand why dropping the heel would cause pedal bone rotation unless the laminae were severely compromised before it was done, or the heel was dropped massively in relation to the toe in one fell swoop, when the additional pull on the ddft would have either strained the ddft or rotated the pedal bone.

It certainly doesn't seem like time to cut the ddft to me, when the horse has not been seen by an expert in foot lameness, farrier or trimmer (yes, there are some).
 
The issue has never been trying to fix the club foot, which she was sound on for a racing career and retraining. It would be madness to try and correct something that the horse has had since near birth and compensated adequately for. Her heel has been slowly lowered due to the fact she was walking totally on the toe and her heels did not touch the ground after bad trimming left her unsound and unable to have correct footfall. I could fit a finger under where the heel should have touched the ground.

I live in North Scotland and specialists are hard to come by. However I will be speaking to my vet tonight and asking for recommendations and then hopefully ring round tomorrow. If anyone on here has any recommendations then they would be greatly received also. I do know that some trimmers or farriers will come up from the borders.

Cutting of the DDFT is not something I am going to jump into, it was my vet's first suggestion but he said he would like me in clinic to discuss things further and show me the x-rays.

amymay, I totally agree with you that if she will be in a more permanent level of pain then I will do what's best for the horse. I have said that if she can only be a field ornament then that is fine as long as she is not left in pain. Especially as a 6 year old who could have 20+ years left.

Thank you for all the posts, I now have quite a few questions to go to the vet which is a huge help.
 
matchbox said:
The issue has never been trying to fix the club foot, which she was sound on for a racing career and retraining. It would be madness to try and correct something that the horse has had since near birth and compensated adequately for. Her heel has been slowly lowered due to the fact she was walking totally on the toe and her heels did not touch the ground after bad trimming left her unsound and unable to have correct footfall. I could fit a finger under where the heel should have touched the ground.

I live in North Scotland and specialists are hard to come by. However I will be speaking to my vet tonight and asking for recommendations and then hopefully ring round tomorrow. If anyone on here has any recommendations then they would be greatly received also. I do know that some trimmers or farriers will come up from the borders.

Cutting of the DDFT is not something I am going to jump into, it was my vet's first suggestion but he said he would like me in clinic to discuss things further and show me the x-rays.

amymay, I totally agree with you that if she will be in a more permanent level of pain then I will do what's best for the horse. I have said that if she can only be a field ornament then that is fine as long as she is not left in pain. Especially as a 6 year old who could have 20+ years left.

Thank you for all the posts, I now have quite a few questions to go to the vet which is a huge help.
Click to expand...

Not sure how the PM thing works, but we have a really good Remedial Farrier who does all the remedial work for Clyde Vet Group (Lanark), know we're not exactly North of Scotland but maybe Stewart could recommend someone up there (you could always ask if he would travel, but think it's unlikely). maybe contact Clyde Vet Group (not as a vet obviously) to see if they would either put you in touch with Stewart or get Stewart to get in touch with you. www.clydevetgroup.co.uk
 
matchbox said:
I feel stuck between a rock and a hard place at the minute and I feel that with her being so young it's not fair her being in this level of pain if the prognosis is not good.
Click to expand...

I would ALWAYS go on my vets advice. I would also ask to be referred to a remedial farrier. I cannot fathom what it must be like not to have a "relationship" with your vet. I trust mine implicitly and I know that the outcome will always be through every avenue possible having been investigated.
 
Aces_High said:
I would ALWAYS go on my vets advice. I would also ask to be referred to a remedial farrier. I cannot fathom what it must be like not to have a "relationship" with your vet. I trust mine implicitly and I know that the outcome will always be through every avenue possible having been investigated.
Click to expand...

Aces_High I assume that you have never been let down by a vet and I sincerely hope that you never will be. I had a horse with kidney failure undiagnosed for a year because a vet would not belive me that a horse with a shiny coat was ill when the owner (me) knew that he was eating far more than he should be. If you go through something like that once, you unfortunately never trust a vet completely again. I also wish I did not know of so many horses with navicular spectrum lameness who are now in full work after the owners were told that the horse should be retired to a paddock or put to sleep :(, some of whom were also told that they would do their horses grave damage if they took off their shoes :( :(.

It's a lonely, stressful world not being able to trust the experts, but unfortunately a small minority are not as trustworthy as they need to be. And they are all human and can make mistakes too. If something feels wrong to an owner, then I would advise them to question and question until it feels right, or not do it.
 
Last edited:
I haven't been let down by the vet, but only started using them in March and have had no reason to use them before other than for routine vaccination. I do have faith in their skills and experience and the vet treating her is a lameness specialist. The senior partner for the clinic is a vice president for the British Equine Veterinary Association. I would just like to have ideas to take to the vet when we have our appointment. It doesn't help that my mare's trimmer disagrees with the vets initial prognosis and when you are concerned about your horses health and you get polar opposite opinions. No matter how logical it is to follow a vet's opinion over anything else, when you are worried for the health of your horse and hear horror stories you do start to doubt if you as an owner are doing the right thing.

cptrayes I am so sorry to hear about your horse :(
 
matchbox said:
The issue has never been trying to fix the club foot, which she was sound on for a racing career and retraining. It would be madness to try and correct something that the horse has had since near birth and compensated adequately for. Her heel has been slowly lowered due to the fact she was walking totally on the toe and her heels did not touch the ground after bad trimming left her unsound and unable to have correct footfall. I could fit a finger under where the heel should have touched the ground.
Click to expand...

I understand you are not trying to fix the club foot now, but someone has tried in the past and by further lowering the heel I think your trimmer has missed the point. You need to let the foot grow to where it wants to go. Maybe a heel wedge on the foot while the foot grows down again and if the horse was sounder she could get some stimulation to the caudal hoof. I'm thinking aloud now but just some thoughts to put to your vet.

Very best of luck; horses have an amazing capacity to heal themselves, nature is truely miraculous if we can let it alone.
 
foxy1 said:
I understand you are not trying to fix the club foot now, but someone has tried in the past and by further lowering the heel I think your trimmer has missed the point. You need to let the foot grow to where it wants to go. Maybe a heel wedge on the foot while the foot grows down again and if the horse was sounder she could get some stimulation to the caudal hoof. I'm thinking aloud now but just some thoughts to put to your vet.

Very best of luck; horses have an amazing capacity to heal themselves, nature is truely miraculous if we can let it alone.
Click to expand...

Ah I see now. Yes I agree that someone has tried to 'fix' her club foot when she was previously sound on it. The mind boggles.

I will definitely be taking all this to my vet, all the posts have given me a lot to think about. They rang not long ago and there is still blood and fluid being drained from the hoof so that is still the primary concern before they move onto trying to fix the underlying more long term issues. She's still very lame, but comfortable on pain relief.
 
Cptrayes - I am extremely lucky to have the best vets in the country on my doorstep. I have an amazing relationship with a handful of the partners as well as associates. Sorry to hear that you had an awful experience.
I was just wanting to make the point that I'd always follow my vets advice over a trimmer. I personally do not agree with these "trimmers." I do not know much about them other than they do not go through the training a farrier does. If you don't want your horse to wear shoes get your farrier to trim it's feet. But that's my call of thought on the unshod horse. Matchbox - I'd be asking your vet when you speak to him/her that you would like his advice on a remedial farrier to work along side the vet. Someone posted about nailing a shoe into a painful hoof - there are glue shoes, heaps of other options before you get carried away and also the area where the hoof is nailed (if it can be nailed into) doesn't have any feeling.
Good luck Matchbox and I hope you can get your horse comfortable. Will be interesting to hear the progress.
 
foxy1 said:
I had a horse with a club foot and the REASON he had a club foot was that his legs were slightly different lengths ie the leg with the club foot was shorter so the foot had grown more length to compensate.

There is no point trying to lower the heel on a foot like this as it is doing a job. If the horse was sound on it then it should have been left alone.

I suspect now the best thing you can do is put a wedge on the club foot to bring it back to it's original level and then let the foot grow back to where it was and then if you want to continue with barefoot take it from there.
Click to expand...

I'd agree with this, there are perfectly sound horses around that have feet that going by by the book should contribute to soundness issues. The horse will often grow the foot that he needs if there are mechanical/conformational issues involved, a 'balanced' foot on the end of an unbalanced leg knocks everything out of kilter.

I'd be looking at how his foot was when sound and taking it from there. Personally I feel that boots and pads are a better option than shoes as the hoof is continually growing and with pads and boots you can make the adjustments needed more easily and regularly.

As for vets, they are only human and do sometimes get it wrong, the best way forwards is to educate yourself, discuss with the vet and if they can make viable reasons for continuing with their chosen method and you agree then fair enough. I think most vets worth their salt would be happy to discuss things and consider various treatment options. I am very lucky in that my vet is open to barefoot and I believe works alongside trimmers as well as remedial farriers.
 
Aces_High said:
I personally do not agree with these "trimmers." I do not know much about them other than they do not go through the training a farrier does. If you don't want your horse to wear shoes get your farrier to trim it's feet. But that's my call of thought on the unshod horse.
Click to expand...

I don't want to take this discussion off topic but.. how can you say you don't agree with something that you (by your own admission) know nothing about?? Of course trimmers don't go through the same training as a farrier, why would they need to learn how to fashion shoes from metal and nail them to a horses foot?
Most reputable trimmers go through thorough training which covers anatomy, nutrition, movement, saddle fitting and horse handing alongside the trimming.
Making an assumption from here-say and gossip is very dangerous!

OP - sounds to me like you're investigating all possibilities, its always good to do your own research alongside your vets advice - knowledge is after all power.
Fingers crossed for a good outcome. :)
 
maggiesmum said:
I don't want to take this discussion off topic but.. how can you say you don't agree with something that you (by your own admission) know nothing about?? Of course trimmers don't go through the same training as a farrier, why would they need to learn how to fashion shoes from metal and nail them to a horses foot?
Most reputable trimmers go through thorough training which covers anatomy, nutrition, movement, saddle fitting and horse handing alongside the trimming.
Click to expand...

Barefoot trimming training - 7 week course.

Farrier - 7 years.

No brainer.

And suprisingly farriers do more than learn how to nail shoes on to feet.
 
matchbox said:
The vet wants to cut the deep digital flexor tendon in the club foot to ease the pressure on the pedal bone but my trimmer does not agree with this so I'm looking for advice.
Click to expand...
I'm an owner with no formal training but I agree with your trimmer. How a rotated pedal bone cannot be associated with laminitis is a mystery to me, the lamina have failed so erm, laminitis. Cutting the DDFT will allow the back of the pedal bone to drop so all the bone will be low instead of tipped. I think this condition is called a 'sinker' and funnily enough is also associated with laminitis... why on earth would anyone want to induce this?

Surely diet needs to be addressed strictly so the horse can grow (with correct trimming and support/protection) a healthy hoof capsule with healthy lamina able to provide a good connection and the hoof to grow a good thick sole and generally develop strong structures that will allow correct bone position and proctection. :confused:

Ho hum...
 
maggiesmum said:
I don't want to take this discussion off topic but.. how can you say you don't agree with something that you (by your own admission) know nothing about?? Of course trimmers don't go through the same training as a farrier, why would they need to learn how to fashion shoes from metal and nail them to a horses foot?
Most reputable trimmers go through thorough training which covers anatomy, nutrition, movement, saddle fitting and horse handing alongside the trimming.
Making an assumption from here-say and gossip is very dangerous!
QUOTE]

I have made my own assumption with little knowledge on the subject. My horses have their shoes taken off when they are on holiday and shoes on for when they are in work. A horse is shod or unshod in my book.
Going to start a new thread on this as I am interested to hear why people fall into this way of thinking!
Click to expand...
 
ok i maybe off the mark here. But you can have pedal bones which have rotated without lami. Because if the DDFTs are constricted they will pull the tip down BUT they are still attached to the lamina so therefore make the hoof grow very upright as the hoof is growing in line with the pedal bone. Hence ending up with a club foot (or one of the reasons).
Having read though some of this it does seem you need to act in some way. I had a horse that had come in to work that was lame behind we were told it was lame for one reason and another but were not happy with this diagnosis so pushed to look at it further which showed the angle of the pedal bones behind were very upright much as you have discribed likley to have been because of inappropriate trimming in the past, conformation and it not being delt with sooner. He had 4 months remiedal trimming but was then PTS as this made little differance as too much damage (his fetlocks and pasterns were a mess) had been done. he was not a surgical candiate as was not insured.
If it were my horse i would be looking at remedial trimming then if this did not improve it then look at surgary. A horse can stay sound with this sort of thing and never have a problem but with others it catchs up with them in the end.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top