Please help- full pedal bone rotation (not laminitus)

loopylucifer said:
ok i maybe off the mark here. But you can have pedal bones which have rotated without lami. Because if the DDFTs are constricted they will pull the tip down BUT they are still attached to the lamina so therefore make the hoof grow very upright as the hoof is growing in line with the pedal bone. Hence ending up with a club foot (or one of the reasons).
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I see what you mean but the pedal bone wouldn't actually be 'rotated', would it? Rotation is specifically applied to how much the bone has moved away from the hoof wall in my understanding. :confused: A club foot is a club foot and if the attachment is good the bone may be tipped but still connected as you say but then I thought it was a club foot not a rotated pedal bone...
Perhaps I am wrong but I still don't think cutting DDFT is a help tbh. Making drastic sudden changes to this sort of stuff can be catatrophic I believe, the changes need to be made gradually so the horses body, muscles and ligaments have time to adjust... Does DDFT regrow/reconnect?

I thought club feet were usually the result of something wrong elsewhere in the body the horse was compensating for, so the horse may well actually need it till the issue is resolved if possible.
 
loopylucifer said:
ok i maybe off the mark here. But you can have pedal bones which have rotated without lami. Because if the DDFTs are constricted they will pull the tip down BUT they are still attached to the lamina so therefore make the hoof grow very upright as the hoof is growing in line with the pedal bone. Hence ending up with a club foot (or one of the reasons).
Having read though some of this it does seem you need to act in some way. I had a horse that had come in to work that was lame behind we were told it was lame for one reason and another but were not happy with this diagnosis so pushed to look at it further which showed the angle of the pedal bones behind were very upright much as you have discribed likley to have been because of inappropriate trimming in the past, conformation and it not being delt with sooner. He had 4 months remiedal trimming but was then PTS as this made little differance as too much damage (his fetlocks and pasterns were a mess) had been done. he was not a surgical candiate as was not insured.
If it were my horse i would be looking at remedial trimming then if this did not improve it then look at surgary. A horse can stay sound with this sort of thing and never have a problem but with others it catchs up with them in the end.
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Thank you, it seems very similar to your horse. I'm very sorry to hear he didn't come right.

She has had 6 months of remedial trimming and a managed diet and now we are at this stage. Her heel was being lowered slowly by the trimming. It frustrates me no end that she was sound and someone decided to mess around with what was, in their own opinion, an imbalance but actually suited the horse as she had come to find her own lateral medial balance with hoof growth and had learned to cope soundly on the hoof.
 
matchbox said:
It frustrates me no end that she was sound and someone decided to mess around with what was, in their own opinion, an imbalance but actually suited the horse as she had come to find her own lateral medial balance with hoof growth and had learned to cope soundly on the hoof.
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I would be very frustrated too. I believe changes should be made if the horse is saying it needs a change...
 
amandap said:
I would be very frustrated too. I believe changes should be made if the horse is saying it needs a change...
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Over the last 6 months she started to rapidly grow heel which we took as a sign that she needed it and she also has her own balance within the hoof which looks like a lean to the outside of the hoof. I'll have a look through my computer as I took pictures of her hooves about a month ago.
 
amandap said:
I see what you mean but the pedal bone wouldn't actually be 'rotated', would it? Rotation is specifically applied to how much the bone has moved away from the hoof wall in my understanding. :confused: A club foot is a club foot and if the attachment is good the bone may be tipped but still connected as you say but then I thought it was a club foot not a rotated pedal bone...
Perhaps I am wrong but I still don't think cutting DDFT is a help tbh. Making drastic sudden changes to this sort of stuff can be catatrophic I believe, the changes need to be made gradually so the horses body, muscles and ligaments have time to adjust... Does DDFT regrow/reconnect?

I thought club feet were usually the result of something wrong elsewhere in the body the horse was compensating for, so the horse may well actually need it till the issue is resolved if possible.
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See I always assumed that pedal bone rotation was connected to the laminae also. I will get more thorough information from the vet as soon as they make some progress with draining the hoof. At the minute that is their primary concern and unfortunately it seems to be taking awhile to drain all the blood and fluid.

I have been told her club foot was a result of an injury as a foal.
 
matchbox said:
Over the last 6 months she started to rapidly grow heel which we took as a sign that she needed it and she also has her own balance within the hoof which looks like a lean to the outside of the hoof.
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The Trimmer should be able to tell by the adjacent sole I think. I know my pony puts out a lot of heel when in a bout of acute laminitis (don't mean to cloud the issue) and I believe you can get laminitis in one hoof? Any sign of deep thrush?
As I said I'm only an owner but has she seen a body worker and how is the diagonal leg/hoof? My sister has a resue mare with a hind club foot this worsens when she has dental problems which are sadly on ongoing saga. :(

Sorry, I'm rambling on when you have an urgent decision to make. What an utterly dreadful situation you and the poor mare are in... I've no idea what I would do but with her in Vet care it's very difficult. With blood etc. in the hoof it does sound like laminitis as well as a possible worsening of the original problem.
 
im not exactly sure how they do it but they do it with foals that have seriously contracted tendons too. I know that the pressure is relived by the tendons/ligiments what ever being cut. think of an eleastic band pulling. Basically the tendons are cut to relive the tension allowing the pedal bone to slowly come back round while everything heals. As i said i dont know the exact science behind but i do know the theroy behind it.
The horse i knew wasn't mine just one at work we looked after but it was very extream the farrier had said not seen one that bad before.
So although your horse was sound there is no certiantys that she would have stayed that way,the person trying to match the feet just may have sped the process up somewhat.
Fingers crossed for you. But have a good chat with your vet and I would always trust them if you feel they are doing the best thing (which normaly they are) get a good farrier on your side too and get farrier and vet working and leiasing together.
 
loopylucifer said:
im not exactly sure how they do it but they do it with foals that have seriously contracted tendons too. I know that the pressure is relived by the tendons/ligiments what ever being cut. think of an eleastic band pulling. Basically the tendons are cut to relive the tension allowing the pedal bone to slowly come back round while everything heals. As i said i dont know the exact science behind but i do know the theroy behind it.
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Yes, like you I know little about tendons that are shortened being cut. My stepdaughter had to have this done along with both her legs broken and reset... she has cerebral palsy. The problem from what I can gleen from the posts is that this issue is more complex than straightforward shortened and fixed tendons and may involve laminitis and other issues, this is why I'm personally worried about cutting tendons. :( If the lamina have seperated cutting the tendon wont reattach them or protect the hoof, all it will do is change the angle and placement of the pedal bone in my eyes.
 
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amandap said:
The Trimmer should be able to tell by the adjacent sole I think. I know my pony puts out a lot of heel when in a bout of acute laminitis (don't mean to cloud the issue) and I believe you can get laminitis in one hoof? Any sign of deep thrush?
As I said I'm only an owner but has she seen a body worker and how is the diagonal leg/hoof? My sister has a resue mare with a hind club foot this worsens when she has dental problems which are sadly on ongoing saga. :(

Sorry, I'm rambling on when you have an urgent decision to make. What an utterly dreadful situation you and the poor mare are in... I've no idea what I would do but with her in Vet care it's very difficult. With blood etc. in the hoof it does sound like laminitis as well as a possible worsening of the original problem.
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They will be x-raying the foot again once the fluid has drained so I think we will get a better picture then.

She does actually have a body worker who has come out to her 3 times. She has stated she is very tight through her shoulder and back on the side of the club foot. She had been doing work to try and alleviate this but of course it's connected to the hoof so you can only make her more comfortable until the cause of the problem is fixed. All other legs and hooves are fine. Trimmed very badly at first but no unsoundness and not unlevel now.
 
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matchbox said:
I had a remedial farrier come out to see her on the recommendation of friends a couple of days before she went badly lame and into clinic, just to look at the club foot and angle and he seemed to think the problem wasn't insurmountable as she seemed unlevel rather than unsound but that if she went lame then the prognosis wasn't great.
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Don't mean to rake up stuff you can't change but I take it the Farrier did only look and not DO anything? It just seems odd things were improving slowly for six months then two days after this visit there was a crisis. :(

I wish her a good out come and when she's home I'd look elsewhere for dietry advice myself as other have hinted. Her diet may well need to be stricter and not include balancers etc...
 
The farrier didn't do any work, he was out seeing another horse and came and had a look at her and said that he wanted to see her again in a few weeks when she'd had a bit more hoof growth. She has gone lame after the trimmer before and I believe there was too much heel taken off.
 
matchbox said:
The farrier didn't do any work, he was out seeing another horse and came and had a look at her and said that he wanted to see her again in a few weeks when she'd had a bit more hoof growth. She has gone lame after the trimmer before and I believe there was too much heel taken off.
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I see. I've misunderstood. :)
 
amymay said:
Barefoot trimming training - 7 week course.

Farrier - 7 years.

No brainer.

And suprisingly farriers do more than learn how to nail shoes on to feet.
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Nope, wrong... the UKNHCP course is a damn site longer than 7 weeks, can't speak for the EP training though.
Maybe you're confused with the 5 day la Pierre OWNERS courses which teach owners how to 'manage' their barefoot horses???
 
Thanks for the posts, I wanted to update with some proper news.

I have photographs of my mare's x-ray (her heel does actually touch the ground):

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This is post hoof draining and is after 6 months of remedial trimming and diet management. The vet again confirmed there is no laminitus in the hoof and the other hooves are fine.

The vet advised that we operate on her (hopefully this week) and cut the Inferior Check Ligament which is attached to the DDFT. This will loosen the DDFT and allow some relaxation so the pedal bone can move into a more normal position. A remedial farrier will be coming up from the borders and meeting with the vet at the clinic and go through the x-rays and prognosis. She will have remedial farrier work done for as long as needed.

The vet carried out a similar operation recently on a 4 year old horse and he was back to soundness after 2 weeks and light ridden work after 6 weeks. However my mare is a bit more complicated so we are looking at soundness in 9-12 months but the prognosis for ridden work is good.

She'll be on box rest for the first few weeks then it's important to start her walking out to help the DDFT strengthen. So we'll be doing lots of in-hand walking for the next year or so. She'll also have to be on solitary turnout as being a typical youngster as soon as she feel a bit better she is off for a hooley with any other willing horse!

As the clinic is about 90 minutes away she will be on a livery yard near them for the first 3 weeks or so. This way her vet can check up on her regularly. Then she'll be transported back to mine and the work will begin to strengthen up the tendons.

Thank you all so much for your posts and help. I'll be starting an online diary on her treatment and recovery, if anyone would like the link then feel free to PM me.
 
Thanks for the update. I've no idea about Xrays but it does look different to the ones I've seen of horses with laminitis. :)

Fingers crossed for her treatment, hope it all goes well and I look forward to reading your diary. :)
 
hiya not sure if this helps your decission but i have just had my ID go lame and he was barefoot for 9 years and never went lame i had shoes put on him 5 months ago and is now been treated for unsound foot causing pedal bone rotation after xrays from the vets i was horrified to see how un level his foot was due to farrier trimming, but when i had his shoes took off i had a barefoot trimmer come to level him so not only did i have a farrier i also had a barefoot trimmer level his feet up but then a week later his xrays showed how very unlevel he was so please dont think that just because these profesionals say they will do better than the prof before trust your instinct and go with you vet as he will see the xrays and can re xray regulary and if they have there own medial farrier use them as they keep in close contact with the vets during your horses treatment BUT that does not mean to say you have to have anything cut to atchieve soundness the problem is not the ligament so if its not broke dont fix it you need a good ramedial farrrier to come and work with the xrays and fix the balance first then go from there its not a quick fix but surely sorting the balance out the foot can then begin to work properly and soundness should follow :-) please be patient and ive been told it could be up to 12 months for my horse to be sound enough to compete again but around 6 months before i can hack him if you go cutting ligaments you are just disguising the origanal problem and will be creating more problems for the future x
 
Thank you for posting this. My Mare has a similar problem caused by the previous owner deciding to try and shoe her himself, messing it up and then filing the foot right back (not uk).

Your horse will be jarring up through its leg and shoulder with every step and this will also affect the back as there will probably be some twisting and all the way along to the quarters. The horse will be compensating more than you may think.

I had x-rays done and was advised for remedial shoeing and raising the heels on both front feet. This is not without it's own problems as the shoes start moving about and the feet are having to deal with the changed forces exerted. I do wonder with my mare if this problem has started to cause further compensatory problems elsewhere as she stands very "wrong" when grazing. She puts the upright foot very far back and a bit under her, further putting all the weight down the front of it. This occurred before the raised heels and is still happening after 2 sets of them. Sadly this twists her back still more and swings her tummy out to one side so I expect there is now uneven musclulature to add to all the other things. She has been walked out in hand or on a large horse walker for the last 7 weeks and I do feel very mean making her do it but reading that you have been advised to do it has made me feel better.

It doesn't help when the person with the horse in the field next door decides it is funny to get their horse to run about and some of the other owners laugh at all the horses charging about and egg him on. Do they not realise that they could kill my horse off for good galloping about on the solid ground and after 2 years of trying to get her sound?
 
My mare had 15 degree rotation through remedial shooing and care its gone back to 11 degree, the last x ray showed its less than that.

My horses is being treated for an unusual case of thrush not seen often. When we have this under control the vets have discussed cutting the DFT when she is in a better state.


Some people ( not mentioning names) say this is barbaric. I have see allot of threads on this and allot of success stories. Seems they do this under local, though with my mare she may not be fit to travel with her laminitic ( although thats under control) damaged foot until its healed more.

Seems a sever injury where allot would say PTS. I would listen to your vet, they have the x rays know the mares feet.

She must be a brave horse to undergo all she has and then cope with the operation and the recovery. Gut instinct is strong feeling to have and often right than wrong.

My mare has been amazing throughout.

Some horses can get through allot of things when others give up and loose the zest for life.


If you have a vet like mine who loves the horse , has a personal interest( very fond) and really takes an interest- says allot I want to get her through.


Then I would say trust your vet, they will do whats best providing you can afford and the horse can cope with it.


good luck with your girl keep us posted
 
matchbox said:
Over the last 6 months she started to rapidly grow heel which we took as a sign that she needed it and she also has her own balance within the hoof which looks like a lean to the outside of the hoof. I'll have a look through my computer as I took pictures of her hooves about a month ago.
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This is the error that has caused your problems. Boxy feet do grow rapidly in the heels, and need to have them lowered aggressively to keep the pedal bone at as good an angle as can be achieved in such a foot. Leaving the heel to grow high is allowing the DDFT to contract due to lack of stretch and is why the vets now are considering cutting it (yikes I don't like that idea!) its like cutting our achilles tendon......serious stuff.
 
Be interesting to find out what happened.
For the record, I think I would have altered the diet slightly and left it alone to see what happened.
I certainly wouldn't have cut the DDFT, nor would I have got a farrier involved, especially a remedial one. (next step up to the village idiot, lol).
 
Pale Rider said:
Be interesting to find out what happened.
For the record, I think I would have altered the diet slightly and left it alone to see what happened.
I certainly wouldn't have cut the DDFT, nor would I have got a farrier involved, especially a remedial one. (next step up to the village idiot, lol).
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I don't know.

The amount of bone loss in that Xray is pretty grim.

I'd do whatever was suggested to keep the horse comfy for what time they had left - even if I didn't really agree with the treatments personally.

The time for dietary changes and rehab of the hoof was a good two years BEFORE half the coffin bone was lost....
 
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