Please help me figure out why my mare is so itchy!

Ellietotz said:
It's been 6 days since stopping the Alfalfa and no improvement to the itchiness so far.
I've also been spraying her in aloe vera juice the last 3 days too but the pink skinned bits still seem inflamed and she is still slightly hivey too. She's still in her fly rug.
I've just read that garlic can make them itchy, is that true? She has about 10g of garlic powder in her feed which I didn't think would cause anything but stopping that could be the next thing to try?
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Definitely get rid of the garlic, I hadn't realised she was eating that, or I would have said it before.


ETA, it could take longer than 6 days, maybe 3 weeks to get over the symptoms but I agree with Slightlyconfused, take her off everything but grass/hay and then if she is symptom free within a month, build her diet back up one ingredient at a time. Good luck!
 
Slightlyconfused said:
What else is she being fed?

I would take everything out and just grass and hay.


Also you can get an allergy blood test done by the vets.
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She gets basic pony nuts, copra, vitamin e, slippery elm, salt and garlic powder. I need to feed her for the vitamin e so can't really cut feeding out. Interesting to know about the blood test, thank you.
 
Pearlsasinger said:
Definitely get rid of the garlic, I hadn't realised she was eating that, or I would have said it before.


ETA, it could take longer than 6 days, maybe 3 weeks to get over the symptoms but I agree with Slightlyconfused, take her off everything but grass/hay and then if she is symptom free within a month, build her diet back up one ingredient at a time. Good luck!
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Thank you. I should have mentioned the garlic. I need to give her the vitamin e supplement and I don't know how I'd do it without feeding anything. What should I do?
 
Ellietotz said:
Thank you. I should have mentioned the garlic. I need to give her the vitamin e supplement and I don't know how I'd do it without feeding anything. What should I do?
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If she needs the vit e I would get some grass nuts, thunder Brooks or similar non processed grass nuts, soak a very small amount up then give her as little as she will accept to carry the vit e in.

Like above it can take a while for the body to calm down from a intolerance of that what this is or reaction. It has to come down from the high alert its been in for a long time.

That is what people don't really understand about cutting back everything.

Which pony nuts are they?
 
Slightlyconfused said:
If she needs the vit e I would get some grass nuts, thunder Brooks or similar non processed grass nuts, soak a very small amount up then give her as little as she will accept to carry the vit e in.

Which pony nuts are they?
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She isn't a fan of grass nuts so will be a gamble but I can try!
They're the Wessex ones, I know, they aren't good but she loves them and she only gets a small handful with her copra and I can't help pandering to her!

These are the ingredients:

Oatfeed (by-product from the oat milling industry), Wheatfeed, Nutritionally Improved Straw, Molasses, Calcium Carbonate, Sodium Chloride, Calcined Magnesite, Vitamins and Minerals

4% sugar but 15% starch. God, it does sound terrible and I do tend to stick to straights but I didn't want to deprive her of them. I know it sounds utterly ridiculous!

With regards to the grass nuts though, couldn't these cause an issue too if she is intolerant to certain grasses or sugar?
 
Ellietotz said:
Thank you. I should have mentioned the garlic. I need to give her the vitamin e supplement and I don't know how I'd do it without feeding anything. What should I do?
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You could give her soaked grassnuts, with some dried grass chaff to avoid choke. Most horses really like the taste of the combination. Tbh, she could be reacting to just about anything you are feeding her. Best to keep it plain :)


ETA cross-posted but she is least likely to be reacting to grass as that is what her digestive system is intended to cope with not all the other stuff, including alfalfa that horses can't digest properly. I wouldn't be surprised if it is the molasses in the pony nuts that she is reacting to.
 
Ellietotz said:
She isn't a fan of grass nuts so will be a gamble but I can try!
They're the Wessex ones, I know, they aren't good but she loves them and she only gets a small handful with her copra and I can't help pandering to her!

These are the ingredients:

Oatfeed (by-product from the oat milling industry), Wheatfeed, Nutritionally Improved Straw, Molasses, Calcium Carbonate, Sodium Chloride, Calcined Magnesite, Vitamins and Minerals

4% sugar but 15% starch. God, it does sound terrible and I do tend to stick to straights but I didn't want to deprive her of them. I know it sounds utterly ridiculous!

With regards to the grass nuts though, couldn't these cause an issue too if she is intolerant to certain grasses or sugar?
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Thunderbrooks use meadow grass and so do dengie.

These are the only ones I use for mine.

Meadow grass is probably the best you can use for the horses, same with Timothy.

And as for reacting the above is the most natural you can give her while trying to find out what will help.
 
Slightlyconfused said:
Thunderbrooks use meadow grass and so do dengie.

These are the only ones I use for mine.

Meadow grass is probably the best you can use for the horses, same with Timothy.

And as for reacting the above is the most natural you can give her while trying to find out what will help.
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Pearlsasinger said:
You could give her soaked grassnuts, with some dried grass chaff to avoid choke. Most horses really like the taste of the combination. Tbh, she could be reacting to just about anything you are feeding her. Best to keep it plain :)


ETA cross-posted but she is least likely to be reacting to grass as that is what her digestive system is intended to cope with not all the other stuff, including alfalfa that horses can't digest properly. I wouldn't be surprised if it is the molasses in the pony nuts that she is reacting to.
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Hmmm, I'm wondering if I'm going to have to look at her entire diet again?
I need something to really keep weight on with muscle support. That's what the copra and alfalfa was for, for the protein and being low sugar. I feed her a PSSM sort of diet/ulcer friendly.
The copra was working really well for us.
Last year she was just as itchy and she was being fed Honeychop Lite and Healthy, Grass Nuts and Equine Answers Premier Flex HA.

ETA: I was also going to add linseed to help the skin issue.
 
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I don't think I've read any other threads about your mare so, Ellietotz, can you give us more information?

How long have you had this mare? When did you first notice the problem?
 
Lois Lame said:
I don't think I've read any other threads about your mare so, Ellietotz, can you give us more information?

How long have you had this mare? When did you first notice the problem?
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I'll have had her for 3 years this October. I can't remember if she was itchy during the first summer but last year she was exactly the same as she is this year. No other time of the year, usually once she has her summer coat.

ETA: I've just remembered it was the first summer, 2017, that I had her that she got really sore all over her skin. At the time, I thought it might have been rainscald but don't think it was. She had cracks all in her neck and over the saddle area, perhaps from burning in the sun? It was like mud fever but on her white patches on her body. I had the vet out who prescribed steroid cream which cleared it up quickly. It was that year that I bought the Amigo Aussie Allrounder rug to protect her and I do remember now that she was twitchy in that too.
I'll search back through my threads and see if I mentioned her feeds in that year. I had her scoped later that year and she was diagnosed with ulcers as well. She has had a few blood tests since and never had raised liver enzymes etc. The vet didn't know what had caused the skin issue.
 
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Ellietotz said:
Hmmm, I'm wondering if I'm going to have to look at her entire diet again?
I need something to really keep weight on with muscle support. That's what the copra and alfalfa was for, for the protein and being low sugar. I feed her a PSSM sort of diet/ulcer friendly.
The copra was working really well for us.
Last year she was just as itchy and she was being fed Honeychop Lite and Healthy, Grass Nuts and Equine Answers Premier Flex HA.

ETA: I was also going to add linseed to help the skin issue.
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What is her grazing like?
Does it have clover in it?

It really does sound like photosensitivity
 
Slightlyconfused said:
What is her grazing like?
Does it have clover in it?

It really does sound like photosensitivity
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No clover that I've seen, all grass with some dandelion, yarrow and pineapple weed which they don't touch. There is some buttercup which they leave as well.
If it's photosensitivity, which I think it is too, can it be possible for it not to be caused by feed/grazing or liver issues?
 
Ellietotz said:
I need something to really keep weight on with muscle support. That's what the copra and alfalfa was for, for the protein and being low sugar. I feed her a PSSM sort of diet/ulcer friendly.
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Except you really don't. Garlic is an absolute no no for horses with ulcers. Its pretty bad for horses full stop but anything with ulcers its even worse. And 15% starch in anything is not ulcer or PSSM friendly.
 
Im not sure I know of one valid reason to be feeding a horse garlic!

From what you are saying this isn’t really ‘itchy’ it’s some kind of hypersensitivity, potentially a photosensitivity or allergy.

First thing I would do is run a blood panel with a focus on LFTs
 
Leo Walker said:
Except you really don't. Garlic is an absolute no no for horses with ulcers. Its pretty bad for horses full stop but anything with ulcers its even worse. And 15% starch in anything is not ulcer or PSSM friendly.
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I do when it comes to winter and for muscle support as it'll all drop off otherwise.
The pony nuts are a negligible amount as well and hasn't caused an issue with muscles or digestion.
I will be stopping the garlic however. I did clarify this with David Marlin who said any amount under 20g a day won't cause an issue for ulcers and she gets less than 10g. I'll be stopping it to see if it helps the itching.
 
I'd strip her diet right back to grass and a plain grass chaff to get the vit E into her for at least two weeks. If that makes a difference, add each ingredient back in one at a time leaving at least a week in between to see a reaction.
 
I *think* ( but am far from sure) that if the do get bad sunburn at some point it can make them kind of permanently photosensitive? I've deduced this from reading the description of a horse up for adoption somewhere so could be complete bollocks! It might be that you need to keep her covered right through spring to avoid the irritation kicking off again?

Any photosensitivity and I would want to check liver function.

Also get her diet completely "clean" for now to see if it helps. Just grass and the vitamin E if she needs it. And I would also go back to a clean diet in spring, while keeping her covered. Then if she stays non-itchy reintroduce any diet bits you want to see if it kicks off again.

I don't think you'll ever get the perfect answer as there's so many variables and no control (unless you only covered half the affected area maybe!) But you might find some combination of things that work. Having thought for a long time that Granny horse was allergic to new tubtrugs I realised that in fact her itching was linked to times of increased stress ( kept buying her a new tubtrug when we moved yards! And then coincidently got her a new one just as a stable neighbour she didn't like much moved in.). Its very easy to make a false association.
 
annagain said:
I'd strip her diet right back to grass and a plain grass chaff to get the vit E into her for at least two weeks. If that makes a difference, add each ingredient back in one at a time leaving at least a week in between to see a reaction.
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Thank you. I'd like to do this but my only worry is that by the time I've stripped everything back and started to add things back in, the symptoms will have stopped anyway if her winter coat starts coming through as that is when the issue goes away.
I'm also worrying as I won't know what to feed for protein etc that doesn't effect her photosensitivity issue unless grass nuts and chaff is enough? I was going to add linseed too to help her skin so now not sure what to do with it all.
 
Ellietotz said:
Thank you. I'd like to do this but my only worry is that by the time I've stripped everything back and started to add things back in, the symptoms will have stopped anyway if her winter coat starts coming through as that is when the issue goes away.
I'm also worrying as I won't know what to feed for protein etc that doesn't effect her photosensitivity issue unless grass nuts and chaff is enough? I was going to add linseed too to help her skin so now not sure what to do with it all.
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Yes I can see how that would be an issue. Keep going with the alfalfa another week or two but if that has no effect and it's going to die down soon anyway you could wait until next summer to do it. I'd still try to feed her a very low sugar & starch diet though - it's normally one of those that's the culprit if it is feed related and that sort of diet is never going to do any harm even if it's not.
 
Ellietotz said:
No clover that I've seen, all grass with some dandelion, yarrow and pineapple weed which they don't touch. There is some buttercup which they leave as well.
If it's photosensitivity, which I think it is too, can it be possible for it not to be caused by feed/grazing or liver issues?
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As far as I know it's either grazing or liver issues that cause it but with horses you never know.

How much weight does she loose over winter?

My boy drops in winter, he can't have alfalfa as he goes nuts on it.
Plus he ties up.

He has the following.

12 kilos of either hay or hayledge or both mixed depending on what he fancies.

Out in the day, I do rug him up so he doesnt get cold.

Then feed wise because he is fussy he has the following

Grass nuts soaked.

Either thunderbrooks or dengie meadow grass one scoop (when winter really kicks in two scoops)

Then his vit e, Mycosorb + and if he needs more fibre then I add in honeychop straw chaff.

The above keeps his weight on well over the winter.

You can feed for weight without alfalfa it just takes a lot of research and looking.
 
annagain said:
Yes I can see how that would be an issue. Keep going with the alfalfa another week or two but if that has no effect and it's going to die down soon anyway you could wait until next summer to do it. I'd still try to feed her a very low sugar & starch diet though - it's normally one of those that's the culprit if it is feed related and that sort of diet is never going to do any harm even if it's not.
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I am nearly out of the pony nuts anyway so will get the grass nuts next time. I am just hoping that the grass nuts will do enough to disguise the vitamin e as well. It's the powder version, smells a bit like fermented raisins and Copra was the only thing that made her eat it! However, I know the grass nuts/chaff are relatively high in sugar, albeit naturally occurring but it does make me concerned still that this could cause an issue with ulcers/PSSM related things?
 
Slightlyconfused said:
As far as I know it's either grazing or liver issues that cause it but with horses you never know.

How much weight does she loose over winter?

My boy drops in winter, he can't have alfalfa as he goes nuts on it.
Plus he ties up.

He has the following.

12 kilos of either hay or hayledge or both mixed depending on what he fancies.

Out in the day, I do rug him up so he doesnt get cold.

Then feed wise because he is fussy he has the following

Grass nuts soaked.

Either thunderbrooks or dengie meadow grass one scoop (when winter really kicks in two scoops)

Then his vit e, Mycosorb + and if he needs more fibre then I add in honeychop straw chaff.

The above keeps his weight on well over the winter.

You can feed for weight without alfalfa it just takes a lot of research and looking.
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She usually loses a lot of her topline and looks a bit thinner in general. I haven't been through winter since adding the vit e though, I'm dreading it as the last couple of winters is usually when things start going downhill with her again but I'm really hoping this year will be different now she is being managed like she has PSSM. It worked towards the end of winter this year so fingers crossed. The diet had been working really well for her weight/muscle wise so I worry about changing anything with being ulcer prone too.
The main thing I wanted her to have was the copra, I'm not fussed about cutting out the alfalfa if I have to but I liked that it was high in protein and low sugar/starch if I needed to bulk it out. The pony nuts were only there for texture and she likes them but again, not needed. Essentially, I want to be able to give her the protein in a small feed without the sugar/starch which I can do with the copra and in winter, be able to do the same but be able to bulk it out whilst still not increasing the sugar/starch intake which I could do by adding the alfalfa chaff as well as giving her the vit e.

I was also thinking that if feed is causing photosensitivity during the summer months but is fine when she has a winter coat, would it not mean that she should be fine as long as she is covered up and still on the same feed? Just a thought.
 
What I would do, from the information you have given, is this.

Take out everything but fibre, grass chaff and grass nuts along with hay/hayledge only and her vit e.

Then I would keep just one of your extras over winter.
The copra if it's the best that works, you can always have it as a reserve for adding in if she starts dropping weight, the first sign add it back in.

Keep a diary of your feed, weights for different parts of winter you want scope to go up in the thicker parts of winter.

Keep her warm always.

And then Mark in your calendar for the time you start noticing the itching coming back for spring to keep an eye. Start her on the fly rug way before. A uv protective one if possible with fly mask.

That to me is the only way you can see if your changes will work as she will not do it over winter you have that time to get her body as cleansed as possible from the reaction 5his summer.

Also be very very strict with treats. Not treats with bad stuff in. Try the Crunchits from equilibrium.


Hope that makes sense.
 
Just to add, I was looking at pictures of her when she was about 6 months old and in a couple of summer time pictures, I did notice she had a few of the scabby areas on her neck exactly the same as what she had with me in summer 2017 when I had the vet out to do the liver test and was prescribed with flamazine and steroid cream. She also looks like she has mild hives, same as she does now, a couple look sore, like they do now. They start off looking just like lumps, then one of them will be a scab etc which is what looks like is happening in the baby pictures too.
Not sure if that helps or makes it all more confusing!
I am good friends with her previous owner so have asked if she remembers what she fed at the time.
 
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Slightlyconfused said:
What I would do, from the information you have given, is this.

Take out everything but fibre, grass chaff and grass nuts along with hay/hayledge only and her vit e.

Then I would keep just one of your extras over winter.
The copra if it's the best that works, you can always have it as a reserve for adding in if she starts dropping weight, the first sign add it back in.

Keep a diary of your feed, weights for different parts of winter you want scope to go up in the thicker parts of winter.

Keep her warm always.

And then Mark in your calendar for the time you start noticing the itching coming back for spring to keep an eye. Start her on the fly rug way before. A uv protective one if possible with fly mask.

That to me is the only way you can see if your changes will work as she will not do it over winter you have that time to get her body as cleansed as possible from the reaction 5his summer.

Also be very very strict with treats. Not treats with bad stuff in. Try the Crunchits from equilibrium.


Hope that makes sense.
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Will Dengie Meadow Grass be okay for the chaff? And should I get Dengie Grass Nuts or are Graze On ones okay? Not sure what the feed store will have.
I'm just worried about the high sugar content but I'm assuming it's okay if it's naturally occurring? And will it be okay for ulcers/PSSM?
Sorry for the questions, I'm grateful for everyone's help so far, I'm just a worrier! Because of the ulcers, I don't want to change feeds just to try as I don't want to upset the digestive system so ideally I want something that will be okay long term which I guess anything grass will be. I did want to add in linseed for her skin too but not sure if this is going to be okay either and if I'm best to just keep things completely natural. She had been doing so well on the current diet, I am just really reluctant to change it without worrying lots first at least!
 
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