Please help me figure out why my mare is so itchy!

Ellietotz said:
Will Dengie Meadow Grass be okay for the chaff? And should I get Dengie Grass Nuts or are Graze On ones okay? Not sure what the feed store will have.
I'm just worried about the high sugar content but I'm assuming it's okay if it's naturally occurring? And will it be okay for ulcers/PSSM?
Sorry for the questions, I'm grateful for everyone's help so far, I'm just a worrier! Because of the ulcers, I don't want to change feeds just to try as I don't want to upset the digestive system so ideally I want something that will be okay long term which I guess anything grass will be. I did want to add in linseed for her skin too but not sure if this is going to be okay either and if I'm best to just keep things completely natural. She had been doing so well on the current diet, I am just really reluctant to change it without worrying lots first at least!
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I feed mine the dengie grass nuts, I am not worried about the sugar a its just grass sugar.

I know some pssm horses need really low sugar but mine doesn't.

The starch is probably the best you will fine at 2%.

Change the chaff first. Get her on that for a few weeks then add in a small amount of the grass nuts soaked just to help her adjust, you need ideally to introduce things slowly over the course of seven to fourteen days to help limit any digestive upset.

Just add in the above for now then when you know she is settled on the grass chaff and nuts if you need to you can add in the linseed. You still have a way to go before winter fully hits and it's a good idea to have something back for when you need it rather than giving her it all now.

How big is she and how much does she roughly weigh? Pm me if you want and I can go through a few options for you on feeding quantity.
 
Ellietotz said:
I was also thinking that if feed is causing photosensitivity during the summer months but is fine when she has a winter coat, would it not mean that she should be fine as long as she is covered up and still on the same feed? Just a thought.
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I think so.

Ellietotz said:
Just to add, I was looking at pictures of her when she was about 6 months old and in a couple of summer time pictures, I did notice she had a few of the scabby areas on her neck exactly the same as what she had with me in summer 2017 when I had the vet out to do the liver test and was prescribed with flamazine and steroid cream. She also looks like she has mild hives, same as she does now, a couple look sore, like they do now. They start off looking just like lumps, then one of them will be a scab etc which is what looks like is happening in the baby pictures too.
Not sure if that helps or makes it all more confusing!
I am good friends with her previous owner so have asked if she remembers what she fed at the time.
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So, it sounds as though the problem is not new to this mare. Her pink skin on her white patches has always been a discomfort to her (and now you).

We have, in Australia, Australian Stock Horses. They are not a breed, just a type. I remember once reading what is liked in a good candidate, and under colour it mentioned minimal white.

Pink skin is a problem. Who hasn't at one time worried about a pink nose, for example, on a horse that one once owned? (Well, I have. That's the most pink skin I've been exposed to apart from my own.)

I don't know what to suggest. Shade for sunny times of the day? A summer sheet? Wouldn't a fly rug still allow sun onto her skin?

What sort of linseed have you bought? Whole seeds? I know many people are advising an elimination diet but I myself would be tempted to try the linseed, whole seeds, ground up freshly before giving to her. She'll like it. You could start off with a desert spoon or 2.
 
Lois Lame said:
I think so.



So, it sounds as though the problem is not new to this mare. Her pink skin on her white patches has always been a discomfort to her (and now you).

We have, in Australia, Australian Stock Horses. They are not a breed, just a type. I remember once reading what is liked in a good candidate, and under colour it mentioned minimal white.

Pink skin is a problem. Who hasn't at one time worried about a pink nose, for example, on a horse that one once owned? (Well, I have. That's the most pink skin I've been exposed to apart from my own.)

I don't know what to suggest. Shade for sunny times of the day? A summer sheet? Wouldn't a fly rug still allow sun onto her skin?

What sort of linseed have you bought? Whole seeds? I know many people are advising an elimination diet but I myself would be tempted to try the linseed, whole seeds, ground up freshly before giving to her. She'll like it. You could start off with a desert spoon or 2.
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I think her breeding makes her more sensitive too, she's 50% Warmblood, quarter Arab and quarter Thoroughbred.

She's in a Shires Tempest Original fly rug which has 80% UV protection according to their website.

I haven't bought any linseed yet but I was going to get the Charnwood Micronised Linseed. Once I have finished the pony nuts, I can use grass nuts instead but I don't always have time to soak these and I heard it's not good to feed them whole. They would be added into the Copra mash but I don't know if this is okay? They are Graze On ones, it does say that they are okay to feed whole if added to other feed and not just on their own but still not sure about it.

She hasn't got cracked, sore skin like she did a couple of years a go, it is just raised, slightly hivey and twitchy when anything touches it so I'm not sure if feed has contributed to it or if it is just prone to that on it's own whether she was fed anything or not?
 
I know his reactions are different so the reasons for wanting low sugar are different but the sugar in grass nuts is too much for M. He had very itchy legs on them. He has fast fibre instead and is fine on that but there are a lot of extra ingredients in it that would contradict what you're trying to do. He's fine on grass chaff though so if she'll eat the vit e with just grass chaff, try that first.

In terms of having time to soak them I soak three or four days worth at a time. As long as it's not too warm they keep or a good few days so you don't need to soak every day.
 
I feed grass nuts whole and unsoaked. I did soak some years ago to see what happened, and they don't swell. They can cause choke though so mix with either a decent grass chop (Grazon is plain dried grass) or unmollassed beet pulp. The water in the beet pulp will soften the grass pellets
 
If I feed just grass nuts with the vitamin e, how long does everyone think it'll take until I know if it's feed causing the issue? Thank you!
 
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We have kept weight on oldies with grassnuts and grass chaff with linseed. They seem to not dislike the taste of Vit E so she should it eat it with the grass mixture. Has she been having garlic all the time you've had her?

She truly hasn't been doing well on her current diet - she is itching and twitching, that's not doing well!

ETA, having seen your question. You should see a difference within a month to 6 weeks. My allergy dr (human) said it takes up to 6 weeks to get the effects of problem fods out of the human system, I can't see why it would be less for a horse. I knew within a few days with my horse, so you might be lucky.
 
Pearlsasinger said:
We have kept weight on oldies with grassnuts and grass chaff with linseed. They seem to not dislike the taste of Vit E so she should it eat it with the grass mixture. Has she been having garlic all the time you've had her?

She truly hasn't been doing well on her current diet - she is itching and twitching, that's not doing well!

ETA, having seen your question. You should see a difference within a month to 6 weeks. My allergy dr (human) said it takes up to 6 weeks to get the effects of problem fods out of the human system, I can't see why it would be less for a horse. I knew within a few days with my horse, so you might be lucky.
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I meant weight/muscle wise she was doing well but skin wise, not so well!

Yes, think I have always fed garlic actually. I have stopped this now anyway and I will just do grass nuts + vit e, see how we go.

Although, I expect if it does take that long, I won't know if the symptoms will start dying down due to something being stopped in her feed or just because they stop around that time of year.
 
Ellietotz said:
I think her breeding makes her more sensitive too, she's 50% Warmblood, quarter Arab and quarter Thoroughbred.

She's in a Shires Tempest Original fly rug which has 80% UV protection according to their website.

I haven't bought any linseed yet but I was going to get the Charnwood Micronised Linseed. Once I have finished the pony nuts, I can use grass nuts instead but I don't always have time to soak these and I heard it's not good to feed them whole. They would be added into the Copra mash but I don't know if this is okay? They are Graze On ones, it does say that they are okay to feed whole if added to other feed and not just on their own but still not sure about it.

She hasn't got cracked, sore skin like she did a couple of years a go, it is just raised, slightly hivey and twitchy when anything touches it so I'm not sure if feed has contributed to it or if it is just prone to that on it's own whether she was fed anything or not?
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Grassnuts don't need to be soaked for any length of time, they are not like sugarbeet, just wet them as you put them in the bucket, they will soak up the water. STOP feeding the ponynuts, don't worry about finishing them up, in case that is what is causing the problem.

It could be the garlic that has been causing the problem, then and possibly the ponynuts that are adding to the challenge to her system and hypersensitivity.
 
When I was trying to sort issues with my mare I was advised to feed thunderbrook’s base mix and their chaff because it has none of the foodstuffs or fillers containing weed killer residues that can cause problems. We soon changed to cheaper fast fibre rather than their chaff when we had worked things out but stayed with the base mix because both the horses did so well on it.
It was a bit of a shock to start with because you only feed a small cupful per meal.
 
Can yarrow cause photosensitivity?

I have had a search round my field, there is a fair amount of yarrow (mostly eaten), dandelion and pineapple weed.
Other than grass, the only thing she's eaten is the yarrow.

There's no clover, St Johns Wort etc.
 
I just read the Country Park link to yarrow...

https://countrypark.com.au/yarrow/

[Achillea millefolium] What’s in a name…? In the case of yarrow, quite a lot… This native European herb’s folk name was “nosebleed” because of its effectiveness at stopping blood flow in first aid situations. In classical times it was called “herba militaris” – the military herb – because it was used by soldiers to staunch their wounds; and its genus name (the first part of its botanical name) originates from the story of the mythical character Achilles’ use of the herb to treat his warriors’ war wounds.

Yarrow is considered a wound healing herb because in addition to its styptic action (stopping external blood flow by constricting blood vessels) yarrow counters tissue swelling and inflammation and helps to resolve bruising. It has also demonstrated some antibacterial action. When treating open wounds yarrow is often used in conjunction with other antiseptic herbs such as calendula or hypericum, or with raw honey (also antiseptic).

Yarrow’s prowess as an external application for injuries is by no means its only talent. Like other herbs classed as bitters, yarrow’s use as a digestive tonic and appetite improver is related to its ability to both promote gastrointestinal secretions and ease spasms in the smooth muscle of the GI tract; and it is this antispasmodic effect on smooth muscle that has also been utilised to treat menstrual discomfort – soothing uterine contractions (cramps) during menstruation. Yarrow’s reputation as a gynaecological herb has been further earned by its ability to regulate the menstrual cycle and either reduce heavy bleeding or restore menstruation when it has been abnormally absent.

Yarrow is also valued as a cold, flu and fever-managing herb. Its diaphoretic and febrifuge effects (promoting perspiration by enhancing peripheral circulation and aiding the body to reduce fever) are able to bring healing relief without unduly suppressing symptoms (as drugs may do).

Amongst its broad range of effects, yarrow has also demonstrated antioxidant, anti-inflammatory and diuretic effects, as well as some analgesic (pain-relieving) activity.

In areas where yarrow grows wild, or amongst meadows and pastures, it is readily grazed by sheep, cattle and horses.

Yarrow can be used to treat horses who have experienced Exercise Induced Pulmonary Haemorrhage (EIPH) in which bleeding occurs in the lungs or trachea during exertion, sometimes becoming apparent when epistaxis results – blood trickles down the nasal passages. These ‘bleeders’ need the assistance of yarrow to improve the integrity of their blood vessel walls, to subdue the bleeding and to enhance peripheral circulation.

ACTIONS include: Astringent, peripheral vasodilator, diaphoretic (increases sweating), febrifuge (fever reducing), digestive stimulant (bitter tonic), anti-spasmodic, anti-inflammatory, menstrual regulator, mild diuretic and urinary antiseptic.

CAUTION: Seek advice from a herbalist before administering this herb during pregnancy as it can have a uterine stimulating effect; do not administer concurrently with sedative, diuretic, blood pressure or blood thinning medications without consulting your vet and herbalist. Rare cases of allergic skin reactions are reported in response to yarrow – cease use if this occurs. Extended use may increase skin photosensitivity.
 
Pearlsasinger said:
You might have found your answer, OP!
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Well damn! Has the mystery possibly been solved??

About 3 weeks a go, I moved them from my top field to let it grow and they had been in this field for a month or two. It had absolutely loads of flowered yarrow which pretty much all got eaten and there is loads of yarrow at leafy stage (not sure on technical term, rosette stage?) in patches around that field mixed in with what I'm guessing is the good grass as she usually clears those patches first.
In their new bit of field around the shelter, there was quite a lot of actual flowered ones too which most of the heads are now gone on and I know it isn't the shetland because he has a muzzle on so wouldn't fit through so its definitely been her eating the flowered ones as well as loving the patches of leafy yarrow and grass bits.
However, I have started strip grazing them on a part of the new field that has no weeds at all and it's been about 2 weeks of that but there are a few still standing by the shelter which haven't been touched now they are focused on where they are being strip grazed as their main grass supply. The swelling has started to go down which could mean that the yarrow she had eaten is coming out of her system with the addition of now having the fly rug on too and stopping the alfalfa unless its just a coincidence. She is still twitchy with the rug on, getting less twitchy when the saddle goes on and being ridden too.
I know alfalfa doesn't help with photosensitivity so will stop that anyway as it could have been contributing and no point risking it.
But what now? I can easily pull any flowered ones up but what about all of the leafy baby ones mixed in with the good grass? I thought Yarrow was okay because it was a beneficial herb, I didn't know about consuming it long term could cause photosensitivity though and it has always been in her grazing, albeit just at leafy stage amongst the grass. Very interesting.
It has also only been three days of feeding just grass nuts and her supplements so I don't expect that has done anything yet and the symptoms could have been disappearing just on the pure fact she isn't eating the yarrow anymore, possibly coupled up with the rug being on and the alfalfa being cut out. I'm hoping that may mean she is okay to have a small amount of the pony nuts with her copra as normal?
I wonder if I can find a picture to show how much there actually was and still is growing in the field!
Sorry, thinking out loud, not sure if any of that makes sense! :D
 
Odd that the link claims yarrow is toxic to horses. Just checked my recent grass seed labels; BS Triple Horse Paddock Without Ryegrass contains 0.15% yarrow and Equine Pasture For Dry Soil contains 0.05 kg yarrow. Not much in the grand scheme of things, but still!
 
Ellietotz said:
Well damn! Has the mystery possibly been solved??

About 3 weeks a go, I moved them from my top field to let it grow and they had been in this field for a month or two. It had absolutely loads of flowered yarrow which pretty much all got eaten and there is loads of yarrow at leafy stage (not sure on technical term, rosette stage?) in patches around that field mixed in with what I'm guessing is the good grass as she usually clears those patches first.
In their new bit of field around the shelter, there was quite a lot of actual flowered ones too which most of the heads are now gone on and I know it isn't the shetland because he has a muzzle on so wouldn't fit through so its definitely been her eating the flowered ones as well as loving the patches of leafy yarrow and grass bits.
However, I have started strip grazing them on a part of the new field that has no weeds at all and it's been about 2 weeks of that but there are a few still standing by the shelter which haven't been touched now they are focused on where they are being strip grazed as their main grass supply. The swelling has started to go down which could mean that the yarrow she had eaten is coming out of her system with the addition of now having the fly rug on too and stopping the alfalfa unless its just a coincidence. She is still twitchy with the rug on, getting less twitchy when the saddle goes on and being ridden too.
I know alfalfa doesn't help with photosensitivity so will stop that anyway as it could have been contributing and no point risking it.
But what now? I can easily pull any flowered ones up but what about all of the leafy baby ones mixed in with the good grass? I thought Yarrow was okay because it was a beneficial herb, I didn't know about consuming it long term could cause photosensitivity though and it has always been in her grazing, albeit just at leafy stage amongst the grass. Very interesting.
It has also only been three days of feeding just grass nuts and her supplements so I don't expect that has done anything yet and the symptoms could have been disappearing just on the pure fact she isn't eating the yarrow anymore, possibly coupled up with the rug being on and the alfalfa being cut out. I'm hoping that may mean she is okay to have a small amount of the pony nuts with her copra as normal?
I wonder if I can find a picture to show how much there actually was and still is growing in the field!
Sorry, thinking out loud, not sure if any of that makes sense! :D
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I would still strip her diet back to just grass, as her immune system is obviously compromised by something and even though it possibly/probably is the yarrow that is the primary cause anything else that she isn't designed to eat could add to the problems (garlic/molasses).

I hope you manage to get it sorted out soon.
 
autumn7 said:
Odd that the link claims yarrow is toxic to horses. Just checked my recent grass seed labels; BS Triple Horse Paddock Without Ryegrass contains 0.15% yarrow and Equine Pasture For Dry Soil contains 0.05 kg yarrow. Not much in the grand scheme of things, but still!
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I read that it was medicinal for them, contains anti-inflammatories and antioxidants etc but could be toxic if consumed in large amounts but they tend to chose it apparently. I suppose you could say alfalfa is good for them too but it can still make some horses photosensitive. There's always something with horses!
 
Upon further inspection, there is clover too. Not huge amounts but the patches where it is, there is quite a lot. I didn't realise quite how much non-flowered yarrow there is too.
I took pictures of the yarrow but I think the files are too big.
 
Meredith said:
Some reports say yarrow can be beneficial if taken internally in small amounts.
I quoted the Wikipedia page to highlight the possible effect of yarrow and wet grass externally.
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I'd thought yarrow was okay to be eaten too, but looked it up anyhow. I should have pointed out where it mentioned photo-sensitivity. (It's at the end of the copy-and-paste I posted. I'll go back and bold it.)

ETA: I can't edit my above post so here is the important bit:

CAUTION: Seek advice from a herbalist before administering this herb during pregnancy as it can have a uterine stimulating effect; do not administer concurrently with sedative, diuretic, blood pressure or blood thinning medications without consulting your vet and herbalist. Rare cases of allergic skin reactions are reported in response to yarrow – cease use if this occurs. Extended use may increase skin photosensitivity.
 
Ellietotz said:
I am nearly out of the pony nuts anyway so will get the grass nuts next time. I am just hoping that the grass nuts will do enough to disguise the vitamin e as well. It's the powder version, smells a bit like fermented raisins and Copra was the only thing that made her eat it! However, I know the grass nuts/chaff are relatively high in sugar, albeit naturally occurring but it does make me concerned still that this could cause an issue with ulcers/PSSM related things?
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I can't remember ever smelling anything from vitamin E and neither horse I've fed it, one of which was very, very picky, ever turned their nose up at it. Are you sure yours isn't 'off' ? Or has my sense of smell deserted me?

.
 
ycbm said:
I can't remember ever smelling anything from vitamin E and neither horse I've fed it, one of which was very, very picky, ever turned their nose up at it. Are you sure yours isn't 'off' ? Or has my sense of smell deserted me?

.
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Oh goodness, I hope not! It's the first bag of powder version I've had but I have just had a new bag arrive so will see what it smells like. It's not a bad smell, just a bit raisiny! She's loving the grass nuts with it anywho! :)
 
Just a little update, she's been on grass nuts and grass chaff since I last updated this thread. She's definitely less itchy but that could be down to her getting a thicker coat which is when the itchiness usually stops. However, her pink patches over her back are still inflamed. :( Considering she hasn't been exposed to the sun at all now for a few weeks and it's been raining the last few days so has had a lightweight on, it just doesn't seem to be going down. She doesn't react when touching, the skin under the fur doesn't look redder or cracked or dry. I just can't figure out what's going on unless it just takes a while to go away after being photosensitive?
 
Ellietotz said:
Just a little update, she's been on grass nuts and grass chaff since I last updated this thread. She's definitely less itchy but that could be down to her getting a thicker coat which is when the itchiness usually stops. However, her pink patches over her back are still inflamed. :( Considering she hasn't been exposed to the sun at all now for a few weeks and it's been raining the last few days so has had a lightweight on, it just doesn't seem to be going down. She doesn't react when touching, the skin under the fur doesn't look redder or cracked or dry. I just can't figure out what's going on unless it just takes a while to go away after being photosensitive?
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Yes, I would expect it to take a while to go down and for the skin to recover completely. Have you taken her out of the field with yarrow?
 
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