please help! worming advice.

[ponypatter]

We've done a worm count and about half our horses have come back with strongles counts. This seems to be a reoccuring theme, although it varies each time with horse and count size. There is no correlation between fields grazed, or groups out together.

Clearly my worming programme isn't working. I've tried to get in touch with the worming company but they're shut for annual leave (!!!). Can anyone advise as to what I should be using that will be most effective at this time of year? I will ask in the local tack shop for advice too, but wondered if anyone on here had any nuggets of info to invest! My understanding is clearly not good enough.

BTW, fields are poo picked every other day, and everything else was clear. Apparantly 5day guard 'doesn't work in our area', imagine this infers resistance, but not sure if this refers to tapeworm or strongles. Used it last autumn and this spring, clearly without desired result!

Thanks!

 

[CMMB]

Hi, I would suggest you do go and talk to either your vet or an SQP at your saddlers, they will take all the information needed before coming up with a plan for you. Panacur Equine Guard does not work against tapeworms.

 

[soloequestrian]

Panacur Equine Guard has the same resistance problems as any other benzimidazole wormer and I don't understand why it is still recommended for use. Your next step really depends on the numbers of eggs found in the tests - usually ~200 eggs per gram is the point where worming is deemed necessary, although '200' is pretty much a random number! Anyway, if you had over 200epg in any samples, you could choose to double dose with a pyrantel product which should treat redworm and tapeworm, or use one of the ivermectin/praziquantel products which would do the same.
Have a look at http://solo-equestrian.blogspot.com/2008/07/worms-and-worming-new-thinking.html for more info.

 

[xxRachelxx]

As already said Panacur has lots of known resistance and is general not thought of to be effective anymore. My suggestion would be equest pramox as this will do most types of worms (including tapworm) and then in 13 weeks do standard Equest that will get rid of the encysted red worm. If in any doubt talk to the SQP in you local tack shop.

 

[Bedlam]

Panacur Equine Guard has the same resistance problems as any other benzimidazole wormer and I don't understand why it is still recommended for use.






Because it can work?

My filly had strongyle count of 625 so was immediately given a 5 day Panacur Equine Guard course. 10 days later had a 0 count. So it clearly does work? It was followed up by an Equest dose and then an Equitape.

 

[soloequestrian]

Panacur Equine Guard has the same resistance problems as any other benzimidazole wormer and I don't understand why it is still recommended for use.


Because it can work?

My filly had strongyle count of 625 so was immediately given a 5 day Panacur Equine Guard course. 10 days later had a 0 count. So it clearly does work? It was followed up by an Equest dose and then an Equitape.

It's overuse of all of the chemical wormers that is leading to huge resistance problems. Benzimidazole is the drug which has had the most overuse and so has the biggest problems with resistance. The only way to reduce these problems is to stop using the drug - eventually worm populations will become susceptible to it again.
Why did you worm with all of these different wormers? A double dose of pyrantel would have done the same job, for much less money. Why would you need to follow up a 'successful' wormer with another which is designed to do exactly the same job?

 

[Tnavas]

I'd suggest that you bomb drench all the horses - that is worm weekly for three weeks in a row with a wormer that contains Ivomec & Praziquontal.

Over the years I've come across a few horses that despite regular worming have had a high level of worms. My vet suggested this to me and now every new horse gets this bomb dose.

 

[FairyLights]

Try using a wormer with pyrantel embonate as the drug eg Strongid-P. I dont use any ivermectin or moxidectin based wormers. There is a correlation between ivermectin and susceptability to EGS, I lost horses to EGS and Dr Chris Proudman at Leaurst advised me not to use ivermectin based products. Moxidectin is a "cousin" of ivermectin so I dont use that either. It seems you have a resistance to the Benzimididole in the Panacur. Try 1 year with Strongid-P (double dose for tapeworm) andthen go back to Panacur for the next year.

 

[Borderreiver]

All sorts of different responses here to your question.

The fact is you need the correct advice for your horse and your situation, which is what you would get when using our worm count service, from AMTRA qualified SQP's.

There are plenty of good SQP's in shops where wormers are sold so maybe get some specific advice from them this time.

Horsesforever, interesting information there which I have heard before. No wonder you are cautious. Even better to reduce your doses down to as few as possible if you can.

 

[soloequestrian]

There are plenty of good SQP's in shops where wormers are sold so maybe get some specific advice from them this time.

While in principle this is good advice, I've never found anyone selling wormers face to face to have any great knowledge of what they were selling, and certainly no idea about resistance problems. I used to teach on the AMTRA course and it is scarily basic - I'm sure for someone with a real interest in horse parasites, it's a good starting point, but the people I taught were shopkeepers who had no real interest in anything other than having more possible product lines. Even in the vets, I've overheard someone buying a wormer, and they were offered no advice on which to choose even though they clearly had no idea. I would suggest that the best avenue is using a company like yours (Westgate I think?) which offers counts and well-researched advice. Although the OP has already tried this, perhaps they just picked the wrong company.

 

[CMMB]

There is some very sound and very scary advice being offered here. I do teach on the AMTRA SQP courses and we drive home the problem of resistance, pasture management , worm egg counts and reducing worm doses to the right time and with the right product. Please do not dose your horses with combined ivermectin/praziquantel weekly for three weeks (would probably cause toxicity problems). Pease go and speak to your vet, Westgate labs or similar or a qualified SQP.

 

[ponypatter]

Many thanks all! Some very interesting ideas, clued me in a bit more, and got me thinking! I'm going to give the worming company one more go, and if I can't get anything from them, will speak to the vets!

 

[Tnavas]

There is some very sound and very scary advice being offered here. I do teach on the AMTRA SQP courses and we drive home the problem of resistance, pasture management , worm egg counts and reducing worm doses to the right time and with the right product. Please do not dose your horses with combined ivermectin/praziquantel weekly for three weeks (would probably cause toxicity problems). Pease go and speak to your vet, Westgate labs or similar or a qualified SQP.

As it was a very experienced equine specialist vet that recommended this I can assure you that it is no problem at all - they need over 100 times the dose to cause any problem. Have been worming all my new arrivals like this for over 15 years and they all survived without any problems - one horse in particular that I had owned for many years that had recently come back to me looking terrible dispite regular worming blossomed again after his 3 week 'bomb' drench.

We are quick to blame worm resistance but rarely does anyone consider the parasite loading on the paddock itself. While removing droppings regularly helps some pastures have a very high loading of parasites and infect the horse far more heavily - this one particular horse had been grazed for a couple of months at a harness racing stables where the paddocks were not in good order.

I've wormed all mine three times a year with Parade - Ivermectin/Praziquontal - for as long as it's been available in New Zealand. My worming programme has gone from 8 weekly to 4 montly. My horses look fantastic.

 

[CMMB]

Hi Evelyn, we seem to disagree (or at least have different opinions) about a number of things on this forum. The point is it is totally uneccesary to worm that frequently with the combination in question. Transient adverse reactions are seen at 10x (not 100x) the usual dose, and worm resistance in horses in the UK is an increasingly worrying problem. We poo pick our fields (moderately stocked) and worm our horses once a year in winter with a combination wormer (doing WECs during summer - never reach the threshold for worming- we use 400 epg) and our horses look great. I also am a vet - and altough I may not be an experienced equine vet I do happen to know quite a lot about parasites and their control.

 

[SO1]

i would join a worming scheme such as intelligent worming as different horses can have different worm counts in the same fields and each individual is better off with its own programme.

All the ponies and horses in my ponies field are now on intelligent worming scheme and it is working very well for us. My pony had the panacur 5 days after a worm count of 500 and then retested it went down to 0.

My friends horse in the same field did not work with the panacur so he had had to have some equest afterwards as his worm count was reduced but still medium.

Although living in the same field the horses do need different programmes as they don't all seem to react to wormers in the same way and some see to get more worms than others.

My ponies last 3 worms counts have zero so it seems the system is working well and it does not involve blanket worming and we don't poo pick due to the size of the fields - though our grazing is harrowed and rotated. my pony lives out.

It seems like a waste of money worming your horse three times in three weeks as the first dose may work so the two further doses may not be needed but you will only know that if you worm count after each dose. Additionally wormers are a form of poison and why put that into your horse if they do not need it.