Please read. RE: Andy's Weight and Management

O dear you have had a tricky time on here of late! Yes your chap is lean you have never argued that!!! BUT what amazes me is, if your picture was of an overweight horse with fat on muscle on top line i doubt you wouldve got the reaction you did<> BUT<> in my book competing an overweight flabby horse is worse and is more detromental than competing a lean one, (for very obvious reasons, strain on limbs,strain on heart, strain on lungs,strain on joints, tendons,ligaments, tissues fibres list goes on and on)
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^^^ this, whilst initially I was surprised, the more I looked at the photo the less I thought it was really bad. I think the sway back is a bit deceiving too.
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Agreed. It's really rather worrying that so many people think a lean horse is really underweight :eek: It seems most horse owners now a days have lost sight of the correct weight for a horse.

Andy is lean and lacks muscle. He is NOT emaciated nor severely underweight. He is much closer to his perfect weight that a vast majoirity of the horses, belonging to those comdeming him, are in the opposite direction!

His conformation make him look worse than he is but those proffessing so much knowledge as to ridicule koko should know that! Put your hand over his hindquarters(hiding his swayback) and the front end is a lacking a little muscle but not particularly skinny.

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It's interesting that you should use this picture as an example of how 'underweight' Andy is ;) : since he's pretty close to the same condition. Due to his sway back you need to assess the two halfs seperately but you'll see his front end is a similar condition and his back end's not far off.

Koko - there is not reason why he shouldn't be doing a reasonable amount fo work, esp if he's slowly putting weight on at the same time: he hasn't got much to go, then it's just muscling up. And there's also no reason he shouldn't be going out to little fun comps if he enjoys it and isn't one of those horses that stresses the weight off. He obviously enjoys it, you obviously enjoy it and so it's only those who like to see rounded, plump horses who get upset and aren't happy ;) I would be a little embarassed about his clip :p but I wouldn't be to embrassed about his weight.
 
mariennep-I would actually have said yours was a lovely figure of a horse in the first pic and a bit porky in the second..
 
O SusieT that is exactly what I thought. People like podgy horses but actually if you look at a fit horse (event horse, race horse) they are much closer to what Andy is than to what people are posting as 'ideal' weight. I think we have a slightly off kilter idea of what is ideal in general

Please don't be offended guys
 
SusieT said:
The only time mine has looked like yours, or similar, was when he was at a different yard out of my control and it just wasn't the right balance for him-is he happy in his field arrangement etc.? Good stable? All important things with an underweight horse.
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This is quite an important point - a horse can have adlib top quality haylage alway available, but if he is stressed for any reason then he might not eat much of it. This might be particularly applicable to Andy if he has recently changed homes. Things like whether he can see other horses from his stable, whether he is getting the correct amount of turnout time, whether he is frightened of the horse next door, whether there are distracting and disturbing things to see from his stable, etc., can determine how much forage he eats and therefore how much weight he puts on. Even simple things like putting the haynet by the stable door for a nosey horse can make a difference!
 
If someone had posted a photo of an overweight horse, nobody would have said that it was too fat - most of the comments would have been "great condition".
Koko knows her horse and wants the best for him. It's winter - if a horse goes into winter in a poor condition, it's hard to get them looking good again until the Spring grass comes through.
Koko, my mare was far skinnier than Andy when I got her. I tried Calm and Condition and to be honest it didn't do a thing. I was feeding her 3 times a day and it made no difference. What did make a difference was when I cut the hard feed down to high fibre cubes mixed with sloppy speedibeet and just fed her that with no chaff. It didn't fill her up enough to stop her eating her haylage, which is what happened when she was on 3 proper sized feeds per day - she just couldn't eat the haylage. So if I was you, I would cut the hard feed right back and just feed haylage from the floor, so there's no effort involved with pulling it out of the net and give him as much of it as he can eat, but don't overface him. Give him a big armful but let him almost finish it before you put more in, so you don't overface him, and then he will be keen to get started on the "new" batch that you're putting in. It works, honest! x
 
Havent read all the replys so sorry if this is repeating someone but you mentioned that he couldnt build muscle without being worked, whilst I agree with that I personally would work him from the ground. So lunging, long reining, in hand hacking and most importantly in hand gymnastic work. If you dont already know about this then do some research, you can teach him all lateral work from the ground and it will help strengthen his back and build muscle and keep him supple.
There is an excellent book by Oliver Hillberger, Schooling in hand, I got it from Amazon, that gives really clear instruction. The horse they used in the book has a sway back and was un rideable and the difference in him was amazing and he is now ridden up to high level dressage.

Hope that helps and good luck with him.
 
aww koko. i've been reading your posts long enough to know that you absolutely love your beasts.

please don't take the comments to heart. He is underweight, yes, but you've not had him very long and you're doing your best to fatten him up.

Besides, it's the wrong side of winter and he isn't exactly a fat breed!! He's by no means anorexic, so getting him out and about will do him no harm.

Can't wait to see more pics and vids of your progress with him.

It's such a treat to see you taking such pleasure from him after all the sadness with Koko. :)

PS - if it takes ages, don't fret - my horse was v underweight when I moved him to the current yard. he stayed that way for nearly a year due to the stress and everything of moving and new field buddies but now, at 17, he looks better than he has in the last 5 years because he's happy as a pig in poo.
 
Agreed. It's really rather worrying that so many people think a lean horse is really underweight It seems most horse owners now a days have lost sight of the correct weight for a horse.

Andy is lean and lacks muscle. He is NOT emaciated nor severely underweight. He is much closer to his perfect weight that a vast majoirity of the horses, belonging to those comdeming him, are in the opposite direction!
I think I know the difference between lean and emaciated thank you. I help out a lot with friends eventers - they are lean but they are not underweight and do not have concave backs due to lack of muscle. My opinion is Andy is quite underweight and it is not helpful to anyone by denying it just to be nice. The argument that some horses are overweight has no bearing on Andy's condition whatsoever.

As far as I am aware and am sure I have read on this forum before then if a horse has no fat reserves then when he needs energy he will start to break down the muscle instead. So if the horse is very underweight he will not gain muscle by working because he is breaking down the very muscle you are trying to build up esepcially if that work is highly aerobic such as jumping!
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BTW- all these people syaing it's harder to put weight on in winter? Actually, if they are kept warm and well fed there is no reason why it should be in this day and age. That is a throwback to farmers/owners not wanting to put more money into horses feed costs in winter or having less advanced rugs.
 
Agreed. It's really rather worrying that so many people think a lean horse is really underweight It seems most horse owners now a days have lost sight of the correct weight for a horse.

Andy is lean and lacks muscle. He is NOT emaciated nor severely underweight. He is much closer to his perfect weight that a vast majoirity of the horses, belonging to those comdeming him, are in the opposite direction!
its insulting to assume the majority of posters don't understand the difference between lean and underweight. And to assume the majority of people have overweight horses.
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Why do you assume his sway back is due to lack of muscle? I don't know if it is or isn't but I wouldn't want to comment either way personally.
 
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Kallibear said:
It's interesting that you should use this picture as an example of how 'underweight' Andy is ;) : since he's pretty close to the same condition.
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Ah but I didn't - I simply posted pics to show the difference muscling up will make on its own in an animal of similar weight (albeit smaller), with light work in that time frame. I hope Koko realised that? I felt that while Andy is lean, people weren't allowing for lack of muscle on top at all.
 
are lean but they are not underweight and do not have concave backs due to lack of muscle.
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??? They are lean but they also have muscle, which is why they don't look like Andy.

And 'Concave back due to lack of muscle'. ?? Swaybacked is a conformation fault, not due to being underweight, although it often makes them look 'poor'. In fact it's often made worse by being fat and having a huge belly. Even once (if) Andy is in the fat show-condition most people like to see he'll STILL be sway backed. It will improve with correct schooling and using his top line correctly but it will never resolve completey and it will have nothing to do with his weight.

Im not saying he's 'fine' because I want to be nice (I don't do 'nice'): I'm saying he's ok (if a little skinny) because he really isn't that bad! He's lean and unmusculed but he is NOT very underweight. And, as he's slowly putting weight on whilst still working, then the work load he's doing is suiting him perfectly.
 
Haven't read all the replies, and I'm not going to comment on condition etc. but it sounds like you've bonded so well with him from other threads of yours I've read.

It just sounds like you want whats best for him, and that's all that matters.

Good luck with everything! :)
 
paddi22 said:
its insulting to assume the majority of posters don't understand the difference between lean and underweight. And to assume the majority of people have overweight horses.
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It's clear that the majority of posters DON'T understand (or can't tell) the differance between lean and unmuscled and being 'underweight' (lacking in body fat). Andy is on the fine line between the two but many seem to be horrified at the 'shocking' condition of him :rolleyes:

And the majoirty of horses ARE overweight - something like 60% of the equine population. It's just the perseived idea of 'ideal' body condition has been skewed by the showing world.
 
to OP... this is so sad for you, you put pics up of your horse to show how you were both getting on and explained about him being underweight and that he was putting weight on, but some people on here have just been outright awful to you.
Sending (((hugs))) and you sound like one of the most caring horse owners that I have read about :), I too would be feeling like you after reading some posts xxx
 
havent read the replys but i stand by my comments. if i was competing at the show, i would have probably said something to you (nicely might i add) that he looks like he needs a good feed and a month off. weather i knew the full story or not, IMO he shouldnt have been competing. however, no one is saying omg you have a skinny horse its your fault. your obviously improving together but just do it at home and cut back on the amount of work. im suprised your instructors said its okay to compete. i know mine would have turned me away. but good luck, make sure you keep posting updates and i certainly look forward to seeing the improvements, after all, Andy is a lovely horse.
 
Kallibear said:
Andy is on the fine line between the two but many seem to be horrified at the 'shocking' condition of him :rolleyes:
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it wasn't the shocking condition, as the owner is obviously a caring person who is doing her best. It was that he was doing such aerobic exercise like jumping when he hasn't the muscle to support that kind of activity.

There are also so many other issues that it raised, such as pushing a horse too fast, rushing through his development etc. Racehorses have a completely different jumping technique and have to be retrained as if they are youngsters nearly. I think its detrimental to the horses development to be jumping a grid at this stage. He should have been brought into work gradually using simple gymnastic exercises so that he is capable of jumping in the right shape.
 
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im also really surprised at instructors encouraging it too. Mine told me to stick to 20 mins walking and bending sessions for weeks!

I feel awful thsi topic has blown up so much. If its any reassurance to the OP, i don't think most of it is aimed at her now. I think its just a debate about the suitable level of activity for an under muscled horse.
 
There are also so many other issues that it raised, such as pushing a horse too fast, rushing through his development etc. Racehorses have a completely different jumping technique and have to be retrained as if they are youngsters nearly. I think its detrimental to the horses development to be jumping a grid at this stage. He should have been brought into work gradually using simple gymnastic exercises so that he is capable of jumping in the right shape.
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If there was going to be any debate (poor koko!) then that's what it SHOULD have been about. But many people were stating how horrified they were at his condition, how they'd be embarrassed to be seem out with a horse who's in such a poor condition and so very undeweight blah blah blah. He really isn't that thin, just unmuscled. And a small jumping class is well within his current ability.

Wheither she's schooling him correctly and bringing him on in a suitable manner is a) an entirely different kettle of fish and b) none of our buisness.
 
yep, i suppose you're right but if you post up on the internet with pictures and ask for comments, then people are going to interpret that. Fair play to the op for handling it so well. It's a learning curve for us all, and these debates are always educational.
 
jesstickle said:
I think I know the difference between lean and emaciated thank you. I help out a lot with friends eventers - they are lean but they are not underweight and do not have concave backs due to lack of muscle. My opinion is Andy is quite underweight and it is not helpful to anyone by denying it just to be nice. The argument that some horses are overweight has no bearing on Andy's condition whatsoever.

As far as I am aware and am sure I have read on this forum before then if a horse has no fat reserves then when he needs energy he will start to break down the muscle instead. So if the horse is very underweight he will not gain muscle by working because he is breaking down the very muscle you are trying to build up esepcially if that work is highly aerobic such as jumping!
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As far as you are aware, and because you read it on a forum... its quite dangerous to make statements like this based on insubstantial heresay, and pardon me if I've got this wrong, but you give me the impression this is all you are basing this statement on. FWIW I don't think you or I are able to say whether or not jumping this horse will cause him to use muscle tissue for energy, since this depends primarily on what he is currently being fed.
 
Looks pretty much the same but with less neck muscle in the old photos: he's since been clipped (a rather unflattering clip :o) and it makes he look much scrawnier without the fluff bulking him out.
 
Naturally said:
As far as you are aware, and because you read it on a forum... its quite dangerous to make statements like this based on insubstantial heresay, and pardon me if I've got this wrong, but you give me the impression this is all you are basing this statement on. FWIW I don't think you or I are able to say whether or not jumping this horse will cause him to use muscle tissue for energy, since this depends primarily on what he is currently being fed.
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I didn't say that I got my only knowledge from this forum as a matter of fact I said "AND I am sure I have read on this forum" - I did try to find some actual useful scientifically factual info on the internet but couldn't get past all the sites for how to lose weight or do body building.

I am pretty sure I have read about this before and I did come across some references in body -building about not to do too much aerobic exercise because it can reduce muscle but you are right I would like to refer to something more substantiated. I am sure there is someone on this forum who has this knowledge who has commented on similar discussions before.
 
Koko- I am sorry this debate has gone on for far to long and really is nothing to do with you personally. As I said before I have followed your ups and downs and think you are a lovely caring owner and only wish you the best.

I have learnt that when I am in an argumentative mood I should refrain from posting but sometimes a little gremlim gets hold of me.
 
Mystiandsunny, those are the earlier photos I remembered of this horse, taken a couple of months ago. The horse looked far better in those photos.

Kallibear, no matter how hard to try to push your point all it is doing is making you look unknowledgeable. The horse is underweight; not emaciated, not horrific but yes it is underweight. 350kgs is nowhere near the correct weight for this horse.

And for the people commenting on her feeding the horse correctly; how do you know? I haven't read anywhere how many lbs of feed per day is this horse having and how many times a day is he being fed.

It is entirely up to the owner Koko whether she takes this horse out competing and doing polocrosse at this time. If it were mine, it would be wrapped up, fed a good balanced and weight-gain feed programme and I would not even consider riding it until it had gained (my deemed) sufficient weight. If the owner chooses to compete this horse while it looks like this then of course comments will be made, either to her face or behind her back. If she posts photos on the www of the horse then again, she must be aware that comments will be made. Sorry but that is the way horse-people are.
 
Read 3.5 pages and then skipped to the end.

I think some of you people need some perspective. He's a bit underweight and a lot under muscled but he's heading in the right direction at a healthy pace DESPITE you riding him. So it can't be that detrimental to his health. It's like a skinny person putting weight on from eating disorders etc. Yes don't run marathons but you still need to exercise to make sure what weight is put on is healthy and not just giant blobs of fat. I agree that it's maybe not a great idea to go out competing a lot but it will have done him no harm to pop round a small course once. He looks bright and happy and full of energy which shows how healthy he is. I saw lots of the 'ladyandjadey' posts and her mare was in my opinion worse than Andy so a poor comparison for the nature of responses.

I think muscle will make the biggest difference to Andy and once spring comes he will look fab. He's by no means emaciated and does not look like a neglect case to me. In face i have seen racing tbs who have looked a similar weight just with obviously more muscle. I also agree with the comments that too many people have overweight horses and don't even know they are overweight. For what it's worth i would be more ashamed to post photos of the fat cob impression my ginger arab is currently pulling off than i would be of posting photos of andy how he is. But i got a comment berrating me for suggesting he was fat in summer (worried i would give him a complex or starve him to death!). Can't win!

Chin up koko, i'm really annoyed that people have been so overdramatic and upset you when there is absolutely no need for it. Can't wait to see photos of you both in summer looking fab. x
 
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