Pls help meeee... dog has issues with o/h

catembi

catembi

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Well, it hasn't taken me long to come unstuck, has it?

We had an incident last night. Our bedroom is in the attic on the 2nd floor & has a spiral staircase that Kane can’t get up, so he sleeps at the bottom of the stairs. Last night after I’d gone to bed, Kane was growling & didn’t want Justin to go upstairs from the kitchen on the ground floor to his study on the 1st floor. Then when Justin got into his study, he growled every time he moved or made a noise & barked at him a couple of times. Maybe Kane thinks he’s guarding me? Anyway, Justin had to stay in his study all night & try to sleep on the floor . Kane was fine & waggy with him this morning once I was up.

So what do we do?? Spoken to the lady at the rescue centre who had him for 2 months & says he was never aggressive. She says o/h should barge past without looking at him. But you've got to have some nerve to do that with 40kg of growling rotti.

Apparently o/h should feed him to show he's got control of his food, & start a play session then end it to show he's in control of his toys too.

Also, found out that the place I got him from should only have been fostering him & not re-homing him, & they gave me completely made up history. He wasn't ousted cos of a new baby. He came from a family with children & was perfectly fine, but then both parents went back to work f/t so he couldn't stay at home all day by himself.

All suggestions appreciated...
 
Justin definitely has to show that he is equal with you and not an underling to Kane. Again though, no aggression at all is needed by Justin. One problem is that Kane has already sort of got the upper hand. He does need to walk past him, head up, eyes ahead and walk purposefully.

He does need to build up his role so feeding him etc is a good idea. If Kane ever tries to get between either of you, it has to be you who moves him back down as he seems to respect you already. NEVER let Justin play tug games with Kane and I am shocked they suggested this. Can you imagine what Kane will think if Justin loses his grip or just loses due to Kane's strength. Never put yourself in a situation where you will lose to a dog of this type. You must remember you want a family pet and not a guard dog or a dog who has these instincts raised - please do not listen to those who (however helpfully and kindly intended) recommend you do things that they do with little fluffy, Rottweilers are not little fluffy!

The problem a lot of people have with Rotties is fear, if a lab growled at him Justin would probably have just said shut up and walked on by, because it is a rottweiler people think instant death. You do have to be careful of course and I would certainly get someone in sooner rather than later. Have a look on the dog listeners site for someone near to you. If you cannot find one I do know one in Hants who will travel. I used him when I had problems with Bailey, they give very sound advice based on gaining the pack lead back.
 
just as a follow up, I would say let Justin take him out for his walks to build up a bond...keep his excitement levels down for now, so no play..but certainly feed and walks
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I would agree with BM. It would appear that Kane has decided you are pack leader and he has bonded with you. Take a step back and let Justin establish himself with him. Remember these are early days and also that this dog has had 3 homes that you know of and is still finding his feet with you. It is essential you and Justin take control NOW especially with a male. If he growls a sharp NO and OUT. Insist he moves away from the stairs. Don't use force but a confident commanding tone of voice. When he moves away reward and praise. By reward I don't mean food necessarily. Good Luck. I have a 2 year old boy Rottie and he can be a handful if you let him. Sorry... that turned into a bit of a lecture!!
 
As I mentioned, and as suggested in your 2 replies, these dogs are fiercly protective of their own, does not make them vicious beasts
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and it does not take long to distinguish, in what they think they own or need to protect,, I.e house, car, people, I do not neccesarily think he sees you as pack leader and wants to protect u,so soon, he just saw a strange person, he is not overly familiar with, I take it, at night, in a strange environment and lying at an access point, i.e the stairs.
DO NOT, allow him up stairs,u mention, he could not get up, DO NOT allow him up at all, that is your space not his, and u cannot afford to make mistakes, with such big breeds, I would put him in the kitchen, or utility if u have one, with a nice big bed.
You OH will understandably have been shaken, and would not have wanted any conflict with the dog, he should have walked to nearest door i.e kitchen, no eye contact, and called, Firmly KANE OUT, and closed said, shutting Kane in kitchen, and removing him, from the space he was guarding, freeing his access to go up stairs.
Men are the more dominant species and pose a bigger threat, it's a lot more common for dogs to have fear, aggression issues with men than woman, there stance, body language, build, height are all the more reason for a dog to feel insecure.

He is in a new environment, and everything and everyone is new and daunting, you both need to be firm, no slack at all, whilst he is settling, if u want him out of the room, do not approach him, simply go to exit door, and command him to go, this way, there is no direct contact or putting yourself in an unneccesary position, or threatening him, u are using your voice and body language to get your result.

Be firm and assert your authority in every way, during walks, in the house, in the car, let him get the message, u will not stand for any of his threats or unwanted behaviour.
As suggested, your OH should walk him, take him places in the car, feed him, play with him, and AGREE strongly, no physicall tug games, simple fun, play, fetch ball and swap for treat games, even simple exercises, sit, paw, give a treat, it's all a bonding process, it's really frustrating me typing this, I wish I could be there, this is what I deal with and speak to people about all the time, when a new dog arrives, esp with OH, when I take bigger breeds in to sort any problems b4 rehoming, believe me, it's not just your OH, men in general pose a bigger threat to any unsure dog in an unfamiliar sorrounding, I even dare bet if a strange woman had attempted to climb those stairs, he would do the same.

Don't be afraid or show him u are afraid, if a situation occurs, walk away, open a door and remove him, with a very firm assertive voice, u will be suprised, and I would be, if he did not slouch out as commanded.
Dont give up, or be afraid to put him in his place, and dont be suprised if once he settles, his guarding instincts are still showing with starnge people, jsut be firm, another reason I suggested a check chain and lead, u need good control when u are out, and a sharp check on the cahin is perfect for doing so, whether is is pulling, has jumped the seat in the car, grumbled at a stranger, a good sharp tug/check, without it coming directly from u, is just another way to show him, it will not be accepted.

They really are fab loyal dogs in the right hands, I love mine to bits, and if she where not allowed to get away with an inch, and did not fear the reprimand she would recieve from me, she too would take the P
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, she is still very protective/wary, with anyone she is not familair with, being a rescue also, but not onlt that, it is in the breed, but you could not get a more loyal, loving breed.
 
I suppose I was one of them that shocked you Breeze mum ( because I would like to be described as being kindly and helpfull
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) , I did say I didn't have a problem with all sort of tug games, I also said that it's NOT for everyone, but tried to explain that I do it to teach them that they have to CALM down/relax when I decide so.

I'm sorry Catembi, if I wasn't clear enough, and I made you think that it had something to do with showing my dog that I'm in control of my dogs toys ( it might do that to, but it's not THE point with it ), it's about that they have to calm down when I want them to, but when I don't wan't to train/play any more, then it is important to use some sort of signal, that helps the dog understand/learn that now I am ending the game.
A finished command is important, but it has nothing more to do with showing the dog who the boss is, than a sit command has.

What I forgot to make clear ( in my attempt to try and keep my answer short ), is that one of the reason why it's not for everyone, is because YOU have to be able to determine how excited you can allow your dog to become, without you getting problems to make the interruptions or ending it.
With some dogs that might mean, that you have to start on a level where both you and dog only holds the toy together, without any tugging, to not make the dog to excited.
And under NO circumstances let Justin even try and do this with Kane, as long as Justin doesn't have a better confidence with Kane.


And true Breeze mum, I don't have problems doing it with my fluffy Finnish Lapphunds, and you could not have known this, but I didn't have problems doing it with my late 67, 68 cm high Dobermann X Giant Schnauzer either, though you'd have to look hard to see the the Schnauzer part, so I do usually only think of her as a DobermannX, but the mere thought of someone describing her as little and fluffy
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I do understand that a growling Rottweiler, in his best years as well, can be intimidating Catembi. I remember how scared some people got of my Thera, especially when they realised the only thing "holding her back" was an around 17 year old girl, 164 cm tall x 54 kg.
You can tell Kane off when you're there, but Justin must find a way to cope with Kane when it's just the two of them. Helping you give Kane his food or walk him, sounds like a good way to start.
If nothing else works, and to use some horse terminology, tell Justin to throw his heart over the obstacle first and his body will follow!
And it probably doesn't hurt if Justin tries to use a military deportment, his eyes focused on where he want's to go and maybe use some mantra like "This is my home, I was here first!"


Keeping my fingers crossed and hopes I explained myself better this time, from Sweden.
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FLH I am really really sorry if you thought I meant you, or any other poster. I was referring to the rescue person that Catembi got Kane from and called for advice, who said for her other half to start and stop games. It is just not the way to go at this point.
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I am sure Cala will agree and yourself also, having had a dobie x (my lord that must have been a big dog
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) even with Rottweilers the difference between a female and a male is amazing. My girl Jazmine has all the protective instincts and is very loyal but she has never been anywhere near like Bailey. I can let her get away with anything and she never thinks to boss me about and is extremely well behaved. Bailey is just such a whole other type, being male I think. Both come from wonderful breeders who do a great deal to promote responsible ownership, so I knew that even with his great bulk and growling he was a well bred dog and not from vicious stock.

Even with that, he has growled at me, caused more bruising than I care to mention with his lugging teeth (not biting but jumping up and trying to get my attention with his mouth open) and also challenging me as soon as he hit 13 months. I have had to keep on top of him constantly, just when I thought I had cracked it with him, I got a cold and he sensed I was low and started again!! I do love him though and all the hard work was definitely worth it as he is now a loving sweet and gentle twerp
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One thing I did think of last night Catembi, when you asked about his background again, are you sure the "rescue" people did not just get their stories mixed up? It could be that he does not come from either of those backgrounds...but I am suspicious by nature I'm afraid
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I hope you update us on how you got on and all was better last night. Sorry again if I caused any offence, or misunderstanding, I would never have been that upfront about another posted but assure you it was aimed at the rescuer/foster home.
 
lol and I just read your "Mantra" bit, I missed that at first...I used to do exactly that to remain calm around Bailey so I didn't lose my temper..."I will be brave, I will get to the wine before you do, I am not afraid of you you big lulking oaf"!
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[ QUOTE ]
Also, found out that the place I got him from should only have been fostering him & not re-homing him, & they gave me completely made up history.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'd take it back - and get something that's easier to deal with, and from a reputable centre.
 
Just to emphasise something Cala has already said (she obviously knows rotties far better than I do, sounds like very good advice she has given) - Do not let him sleep at the bottom of the stairs - it is reinforcing his guarding role. Make him a comfortable bed in the kitchen, or some other room where he can be safely closed in.

It will give you and oh the freedom to move around at night and remove Kane's need to guard you.
 
I'm sorry to hear you're having a few issues with Mr. Rottie. I'm sure he'll settle right down, though, given all the advice you've had from others.

You may or may not know that I tried to adopt a dog last summer, which started with him guarding me, then attacking my small dog, then biting two people without any warning signs (one badly). I'm no pushover with dogs, and have volunteered at a shelter for several years, walking and taking care of Pits, Dogos etc. but a dog with a past like his--stray, abused, very alpha--was totally wrong for my situation and family. I'm not trying to say this to scare you, just advocating you and your partner be very firm and confident right from the get go. It sounds like he came from a nice family situation, so I think he's probably feeling a little insecure and confused, which can be overcome with plenty of routine, love and a relaxed OH. Hang on in there!
 
So you're telling me Breeze mum, that when you think of a fluffy dog, you're thinking of other fluffy dogs, than gorgeous, fluffy Finnish Lapphunds!
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And you expect that to make me feel happier!
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No, Breeze mum, I wasn't worried ( at least not much ) when I supposed you meant me, I was mostly concerned about that I hadn't made myself clear enough.



And yes, Thera was big and wonderful, with an un-docked Karate tail, that gave me bruises on my legs as if I had been whipped with a horse whip, if she had stood beside me and wagged her tail.
Sadly poorly bred, turned out she had health issues that affected her mentality, a mentality that probably wouldn't have been 100% good even without the health problems. But being young and after having flown through puppy-class and further with my first dog, I probably thought I could handle anything. Maybe I could, but when she got more ill, we had to euthanize her, when she was only a little bit more than 2 years old.

But if Thera so sat like an angel beside me, people could get scared of her, and look as if they wanted me to tie her lead around the nearest tree. And if then my Norwegian Buhund couldn't keep her mouth shut... She really didn't always bark *whispers* it was only that, when she did bark, I never managed to teach her to go completely quiet when I wanted to
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*stops whispering*.
Anyhow, so the times when I was standing with a sitting but barking Buhund and a sitting and quiet DobermannX, the chances for that people would look at Thera as if they expected her to explode at any minute...




By the way, if CALA reads this thread again, could you please answer a question? I had just started writing my reply, when you posted yours, so I hadn't read it before I wrote mine.
But on one place you wrote, quote : it's a lot more common for dogs to have fear, aggression issues with men than woman, their stance, body language, build, height are all the more reason for a dog to feel insecure. /quote.

I've always heard ( and felt it worked that way with my dogs ), that a ( not to exaggerated ) self-assured stance and bodylanguage, makes an insecure dog feel more comfortable and a more dominant dog more respectful. That's why I suggested having a military deportment.
Then I read your reply Cala, and to be honest, my first thought was "Oh crap, I should have said that Justin needs to start and wiggle his hips more femininly and stop frightening poor, little Kane with his manly walk!"
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But later you wrote, quote : you are using your voice and body language to get your result. /quote. Which I read as using a firm, self-assured voice and bodylanguage.
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So my question Cala, is probably more a request after some clarification, please?
Am I way off track from your thoughts, or is the following okay : Men, especially, need to think about that they can come across as intimidating, but he/she could still be firm and self-assured?



And Catembi, don't worry to much, it hasn't even been a week yet, everybody is still just getting to know eachother.

I'm all for Cala's advice that when possible, make Kane come to you, to lure him out of the room or such.
But to give an example about how I think you should act when you're doing something with Kane close to you, whether it's while playing, walking or grooming.
Let's say you've decided to cut Kane's claws ( not saying that you should, first week and all, it was just the best way I could think of to describe my point ) if you approach him with an attitude of asking him, maybe even saying "Do you want to cut your claws today, Kane?"
Then Kane will most likely answer you with "If you''re not sure it has to be done, I'll pass. For the rest, I don't think they'll ever need any cutting!"
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Whatever you ( or Justin ) do with Kane, always act as if you believe that you know what you're doing, no matter whether you do or don't. The important thing is to make Kane believe that you know.
Never ask Kane to do something, in a way that allows him to decide if he wants to or not.
It's one thing to let him have some time to understand what you want him to do or so, but make it clear, it's not a matter about doing or not doing, without only a matter about how soon he will do it.

from Sweden.
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I would like to state here and now and in no uncertain terms that I think there can be no fluffier dog than a finnish lapphund
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I am with you on the tail issue, my word it feels like Bailey has a broom handle in his tail when it hits me. He really is quite annoying when you put it in black and white like this
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Are we concerned that Catembi does not appear to have been on today? Anyone heard anything?
 
Don't worry - we haven't been eaten!

He's actually been better today. Didn't bark or growl at the horses at all this eve. Justin has been more interactive with him & J has walked in & out of my study loads of times this eve without being growled at.

J is head of IT at the council & is friends with the council dog warden who also has his own dogs. Is going to see if the guy will come round & give us some hints & tips. I don't think we ought to go to an obedience class yet as I was told that he's aggressive with other male dogs (might be better since he's been neutered recently) & it would prob be way too exciting for him at this stage.

I do rem some of the stuff that my parents did with their obedience trained collies, so I've started teaching Kane to sit & stay. I thought it would take ages, but he will now sit, let me take 3 paces backwards & doesn't move til I release him.

I also ordered Rottweilers for Dummies which someone on here kindly recommended, so that should be here in a day or two.

So for today, we seem to be heading in the right direction!
 
lordy me too, little munched up pieces of catembi..was a terribly sad sight to see
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I am really glad he is doing better, that book is excellent. I agree re not mixing him with anything other than just being at home with you and getting used to that. I am also not of the belief that you should mix all dogs and walk them all the time for mental stimulation etc. If they are going to get stressed by that, playtime at home is fine! They do learn very quickly - great dogs! Well done
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