Point 2 Air Jackets {This just makes you want to buy one} :O :O :O

jonny

jonny

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www.jcbeventing.weebly.com
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Horsham-Un...=app_2392950137

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A bit puzzled really.Was he wearing one ,I didnt see it inflate . Or are they saying this is why you need one. Could one inflate in this situation ?.
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Oh I see it now,As the horse is rolling over him it finaly gets enough pressure to baloon out sideways betwean the horse/rider sandwich.
 
But it doesn't inflate until he's hit the deck, because he was still in/really close to the saddle, so the lanyard didn't detach... it inflated as the horse rolled off him and pulled the lanyard away, i thought?
he was very lucky that the cantle was across the backs of his legs just under his bum as the horse landed on him, and not across his back...
PERFECT example of how to wrestle half a tonne of horse to the floor though. how NOT to let the horse own the fence. they were clear up till then, too.
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btw, this pic (nasty btw) shows a rider getting JUST as squashed, if not more so, and she wasn't wearing an airjacket, and also walked away.
http://www.zimbio.com/pictures/YZ8Rb-LH6YN/Burghley+Horse+Trials/dr1L-_u1VJV/Wulston+Rock+On
also
http://www.zimbio.com/pictures/YZ8Rb-LH6YN/Burghley+Horse+Trials/8f2mGSUEiNK/Anna+Warnecke

i'm sorry, but sometimes it is pure luck, i've seen quite a few horror falls where, amazingly, the rider has been absolutely fine...
 
Quite agree with you K, I am giving a talk to fence judges so I've got stats on falls and injury severity since 2003 (see I can do serious now and then). The trend is a decrease number of rotational falls however the percentage of them resulting in serious injury/death remains about 1 in 3. I think that once your horse has flipped you better say your prayers cos whether you walk away or go off in a stretcher is pure luck!!!!!
 
OG, i'd really like to see those stats etc please...
yes, i'm sure it is luck. soft ground helps a lot too...
all this talk about "whether you and horse stay on same plane of motion or not" - once horse has hit fence in front, you cannot do anything about it other than let go of reins, stop gripping (if you can) and pray.
 
I actually had a fair few rotational falls on my old pony (back then it was called tipping up!) but because as a general rule the cause of us hitting the fence was her going to fast to get her toes right up, I was always catapulted clear. I still maintain that modern day rotational falls are in part due to lack of speed/inertia/pace.
BTW I did eventually learn to ride said pony properly and we were pretty successful!
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K, that's the mushroom I was referring to the other day. It took out several top riders and I believe it was replaced in 2009.

Can't see the OP's link, as I don't do Facebook. Any other links to the same thing?
 
neil, the facebook vid is bigger, and shown in slower motion i think. i'm pretty sure i can see the moment when the jacket inflates, and it isn't until the horse is rolling off him, as he was still in or close to the saddle up until that point.
yep, that mushroom fence really didn't work there, i was watching at home and praying they'd take it out before someone got marmelized. it caused some horrible falls to very good safe jumpers who were clear up till that point and ridden into it well, the horses just weren't able to judge the height correctly for some reason.
 
Thanks Ester.

I think it was good fortune the rider did not roll to breakfall (as I have often advocated), on this occasion I think the outcome would have been very different, regardless of what protection the rider was wearing.
 
I have been wondering for some time where the video of this fall was for some time as much has been made of this fall. Would it be cynical to wonder why it has appeared so soon before the start of the season because I can assure you it was not available on youtube or point two's web site at christmas when i looked into buying one.
However I think it is plain to see in this video that this is not quite the high sped rotational that kills instantly. The horse's head and neck hit the ground first and are slightly breaking the fall of its body. This is shown by the fact the rider puts his arms out to save himselfs and has in fact landed on them before the horse's hindquarters land on him. If that were not the case his wrists would probably be broken because as kerilli says the jacket does not appear to go off until quite late in the sequence.
The saddle seems to hit the riders lower back a glancing blow. As far as I am aware in the fatal rotational falls of Caroline Pratt, Sherelle Duke and Ian Olding it was the crush injuries caused by the saddle compressing vital organs at high speed from a direct blow. This video does not illustrate such a fall.
I think that would be very educational to hear about OldGits fence judge briefing as I do think that there seems to be some divergence on what a serious fall is. According to BE, the fall in this video would not have counted as one because on their stats they only include those where the rider needed medical assistance. I wonder if this definition of serious also applies to the FEI stats?
and until we have video evidence of all falls, then all these statistics are somewhat subjective, reliant entirely on the interpretation of the fence judge, who has to be paying complete attention at the exact split second and then have perfect recall afterwards at what may have been a very distressing time.
Oh and I did buy one by the way but mostly because I am old and stiff and think it might just prevent me feeling quite so wretched the day after a fall but since I got it, sods law has kept me firmly in the saddle!
 
ratsupadrainpipe, please could you remove the names of those other riders while there is still time. i don't think their names need to be mentioned, and i happen to know that you are incorrect in at least one case...
i agree about fence judge subjectivity, there was a picture sequence of a rather spectacular horse fall last summer, fortunately rider thrown clear, horse landed upside down, fence judges had it down as an "unseated rider" apparently.
imho Karim's fall is serious in that it could have led to serious injuries, but fortunately did not...
 
I must have rerun this about 100 times now trying to spot the moment the jacket fires.There is a moment,just after the rider has flattend onto his arms,when his torso is pushed sharpley upwards,just before the horse rolls onto him.I think this must be due to the jacket starting to inflate. The jacket then lifts and rolls the horses quaters away. I would guess that even partly inflated,the jacket helped to spread the blow over a larger surface area. The ground looked pretty hard to me, and the cushioning effect must have helped considerablyso I think in this case the jacket worked.
 
Yikes, must say it's an example of how not to fall, putting both your arms out, just asking for two broken wrists imo, what happened to tuck them out the way and roll. Still easy to criticise when not in the heat of the moment.
 
I think that in this case the jacket worked too - however, off topic, I have to ask why the hell he didn't try and ride the horse past/away/circle as he really didn't *have* him at all... but I suppose when there is a prize to ride for...!
 
I dont thinkthe poor guy had much choice. He had no forward momentum to go into a roll,and was simply moving at the same speed as the horse. Putting ones arms out is a perfectly natural reaction to being slammed onto ones face.
 
mike, i keep watching it and i can't see it inflate until the horse's hindquarters roll off him, then the bit over the lumber spine suddenly puffs out. afaik the neck part fills first, followed by the rest a split second later, could be wrong though.
Megabeast, i think it's a very good thing he did put his arms out like that, and it is a totally natural reaction, as mike says.
fwiw i know of a rider who did not put their arms out to protect neck/face/chin, and wasn't so lucky. broken wrists are infinitelybetter than a broken neck.
 
It is quite hard to spot, but if you keep freeze framing the slow motion footage you will see a distinctive upwards jerk of his midrif. I did wonder if he "bounced"but it is a very sharp movement.On the subject of putting ones arms out,one of our band on the RMAS Drag was caught in a similar way,http://www.digitalpicy.co.uk/photocart/index.php?do=photocart&viewImage=125775 He was walking wounded,but did fracture both arms.(These photos are on two pages)I think the horse must have been thoroughly peeved,because although it isnt shown,when it got up and walked away it also gave him a whack on the head with a hoof!
 
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Megabeast, i think it's a very good thing he did put his arms out like that, and it is a totally natural reaction, as mike says.
fwiw i know of a rider who did not put their arms out to protect neck/face/chin, and wasn't so lucky. broken wrists are infinitelybetter than a broken neck.

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Fair point, and very true re broken wrists rather than broken neck! Think I was automatically harping back to a bug bear of mine which is that many people these days do not know how to fall, but as you and Mike say it is the right reaction in some circumstances
 
Speaking from an owners point of view, my horse and his rider had a rotational fall at Twesledown, a very strange fall, but none the less, the rider fractured her neck.

During discussions with her consultant regarding body protectors etc, his feeling was that whilst the point two is a great idea, the fact that it deflates would have caused her further injury, the fact that her neck was stabilised so quickly by the paramedics (and what a fantastic job they did do she was not the easiest patients) and not moved from when she hit the ground, to the paramedics arriving was paramount to her complete recovery, there needs to be a deflation button that is pushed once it is known the rider is okay, if she had been wearing the point two and it had deflated it could more than likely have destablilised her fracture.

As for crush injuries I feel saddlers need to look at a way of manufacuturing a saddle where the cantel will somehow give, memory foam or something, to help aid absorbing the impact.

I would like to know exactly what the CE rating is for, it is a great idea, it just needs some tweaking to make it the product that it could really be.
 
scally, afaik the CE rating is purely for inflation times. the airjackets are not able to be tested as body protectors are, for lots of reasons. that is why they must be used over a bp and why they cannot be sold as 'safety' gear (no mention of that in ads.)
very good point about the deflation, one i've spoken to specialists about.
really like your idea of a foam cantle, since the hard cantle can act as a blade between horse and rider in a rotational (good reason to use a flat cantled saddle for xc). will have a chat with a saddler friend of mine... obv tree would need to finish up off horses back (i've seen the damage racing half-tree saddles do) but no need for it to be as high as it sometimes is, surely?
 
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