Polarion

[stolensilver]

The thread about Grafenstolz made me think about his sire, Polarion. He is (was?) owned by the Bechtolsheimers and was trained to GP dressage. Grafenstolz has an amazing competition record: the only horse ever to get to the finals of the Bundeschampionat in dressage, showjumping and eventing, which he won. He was also shortlisted for the 2008 Olympics before being injured and having to withdraw.

So Polarion really throws the goods. Does anyone know if he stands at stud?

 

[Zeus]

I have seen him in Germany at the Trakehner stallion show. He was a WOW horse there but his feet are not good at all. I am pretty sure he is standing at a non EU stud, so you couldn't get chilled but can get frozen.
Gestuet St-Stephen seems to ring a bell.

 

[eventrider23]

Don't know if he is still standing at stud but whilst I like Grafenstolz I do much prefer the mare's by Polarion....Grafenstolz has a full sister who is in my opinon better than her brother....she is called Gypsy Rose and is the dam of the Trakehner Korung winner in 2007....VERY nice mare IMO.....this is her:
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/index.ph...l_font=1&l=

 

[eventrider23]

Yes...still at stud as he is only 16 years old....standing at Gestut Webelsgrund and is still owned by Dr Bechtolsheimer.
http://www.webelsgrund.de/english/polarion.html He stands alongside Le Duc, Michaelangelo and Axis.

 

[boxffrogs]

"Grafenstolz has a full sister who is in my opinon better than her brother"

As a Trakhener breeder, I'm confused by this opinion. As it's my first ever post I don't want to have a fight with anyone, but this is my specialist subject.

I think it's difficult to say that Grafenstolz' sister is better than him, until she has become Bundeschampion and World Champion at the same time. Granted, she is a good mare, having produced an approved stallion, but you're not making a balanced comparison. With this in mind, how did you arrive at your opinion.

"I do much prefer the mare's by Polarion"

Again, a bit weird, because I have seen some and they are very good. How many can you say that you have seen in order to make that statement? if it's loads then I'm interested in talking about this because your experience may be greater than mine. But, and it is a big but, the Gundula 509 motherline is considered to be one of the finest in the business. Here's stuff that I've down loaded from a number of sites:

"The dam line of Gundula has its roots with the mare Gundula that pulled the Poll family treck wagon from East Prussia to West Germany. She was able to found a very strong sports branch of mare lines in the West, and today, this line is known for the 1988 champion stallion Guter Stern, his half brother and 1989 reserve champion Guter Planet, the Canadian-based Guy Laroche as well as the champion mares Gute Wahl, Gute Reise, Gute Welt, Gute Sitte and Goodnight.
Grafenstolz' dam Gipsy Lady was a full sister to the approved State Stud stallion Gipsy King, who is a superb sport horse sire in Germany with several offspring competing at Grand Prix levels.
Gispy Lady is also dam of the mare Gipsy Rose, dam of the 2007 Trakehner Champion stallion Grand Passion and dam of the same year's National Champion mare in Germany, Gispy Flower II."

I think you'll find that whilst Polarion is a very good stallion, I'm sure that you'll agree that the motherline in this case by far outweighs the sire on his own. With the above in mind, how did you create your preference?

Sorry that this is a long winded post, but it's a subject close to my heart. I'm also chuffed to see Grafenstolz is coming to the UK, for all UK breeders.

 

[stolensilver]

Thanks for the link to the stud where Polarion stands. He may be a consideration in the future.

 

[alleycat]

[ QUOTE ]

I think it's difficult to say that Grafenstolz' sister is better than him, until she has become Bundeschampion and World Champion at the same time. Granted, she is a good mare, having produced an approved stallion, but you're not making a balanced comparison.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm.. confused reasoning, I'm afraid. By that same reasoning it's difficult to say that Grafenstoltz is as good as Polarion until he has produced both the Bundeschampion and the World Champion. (Of course, now he's in Britain I suppose that's unlikely to happen.)

Alternatively you could say, again by the same reasoning, that its difficult to say that G is as good as the mare until he has himself produced an approved stallion. (Has he? Do you feel this reasoning is flawless?)

I think you need to look past the pedigree, and for breeding stock, even past the animal itself; these things are only indicators of potential until it has offspring on the ground; after that, its those offspring who are the true measure of a stallion or a brood mares worth.

In terms of the mare herself, though, going admittedly just by the photo on pedigree query, she does indeed seem to be conformationally superior to G; deeper through the girth and with good limbs. Not that this need be interpreted as an insult to G; the mare is superb and it is no disgrace to be outclassed by her.

 

[ASM2]

[ QUOTE ]
Hmm.. confused reasoning, I'm afraid. By that same reasoning it's difficult to say that Grafenstoltz is as good as Polarion until he has produced both the Bundeschampion and the World Champion. (Of course, now he's in Britain I suppose that's unlikely to happen.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Does the 2009 vice bundeschampion in eventing from G's first crop of foals count?

Gin Tonic (approved son by Grafenstolz) ridden by Sophia Solzle:

I like Polarion as a sire (moreso his sire Van Deyk who may even be standing still) but agree that the strength in G's breeding comes from the mother line which in trakehner breeding is exceptional.

 

[alleycat]

[quote
Does the 2009 vice bundeschampion in eventing from G's first crop of foals count?

[/ QUOTE ]

You would have to ask boxoffrogs- his reasoning, not mine. I merely point out the oddness of his logic in comparing horses with different life chances by such a basic method.

Any pictures of Gin and Tonic as a foal, or with the dam?

 

[ASM2]

I haven't seen one Alleycat and just realised my mistake above. Gin Tonic was vice bundeschampion in eventing in 2007. He came 3rd at his first CIC1* at Cameri, Italy last August.

For info, another Grafenstolz son, Vincent, was placed at Fontainebleau - CCI1* with Michael Jung the other week.

Progeny will be coming through

 

[eventrider23]

I should have said the mare's of that line....in that I prefer Graf's sister to him...that is my choice....I never said I did not like Grafenstolz...quite to the contrary in fact as I DO love the look of him and was blown away by him in his video BUT I am not convinced by the foals, etc that I have seen by him. I am not saying that his ridden progeny are not doing well...that would be stupid of me to say so when the facts are undeniable.....it is just a personal choice. I just think that his sister is the better of the two and yes I should have said that it is likely to be coming as much through his damline as it is through the sire line!

 

[tessah]

polarion is amazing i saw him at the trakehner show in was it 2004??? can't remember exact year but marcus gribbe was riding him and he took your breath away wow

 

[boxffrogs]

"BUT I am not convinced by the foals" I'm not specifically singling you out, but how many foals of his have you seen for you to form that opinion? The only reason I ask is that the Baden-Wurtemburgers thought his foals were superb, and the Hannovarians the same (followed by the Oldenburgers and all the other stud books). I'm not being in any way sarcastic when I ask you what it is that you are seeing that they are not?

"I am not saying that his ridden progeny are not doing well" Which is the most important, foals or the ridden article? Are we in Britain only interested in breeding pretty foals, or are we trying to produce great sporthorses? That's a pretty big debate in itself, but your statements when put side by side, indicate that you are more interested in breeding foals than sporthorses.

It probably looks like you're being picked on, you're not, I just think these are very interesting subjects concerning value judgements and their validity and the object of breeding.

Polarion is a superb stallion, a friend of mine owns a mare who is very closely related to him and she's a stunner.

 

[alleycat]

[ QUOTE ]


"I am not saying that his ridden progeny are not doing well" Which is the most important, foals or the ridden article? Are we in Britain only interested in breeding pretty foals, or are we trying to produce great sporthorses? That's a pretty big debate in itself, but your statements when put side by side, indicate that you are more interested in breeding foals than sporthorses.



[/ QUOTE ]

What I would really be wanting is a stallion that regularly, and to a variety of mares, produces sound, well-made foals that grow up to be at least, useful; at best, great.

One or two top class offspring under saddle and in the public eye can make a horses reputation, but if, for every celebrated performer he also gets legions of mediocre foals that don't make the grade, its not worth the gamble.

This phenomenon is well documented in TB sires breeding returns; winners to runners, etc.; its quality at the base of the pyramid, in the mass of foals, as well as the smattering of top performers, that IMO makes the difference between a good sire and a one trick pony.

So, yes- I can relate to a comment suggesting that ridden stock are good and foals are disappointing. If they are disappointing enough, a lot of those foals will not become ridden stock. No brainer

 

[eventrider23]

Funnily enough Boxoffrogs picking on me is exactly what you are sounding like you are doing but hey ho I can stand up for myself....mind you, you seem to be able to pick on my comments when they are views shared by many others on this forum who commented much the same about him in other G posts.....however all these posts kept getting removed as soon as people started giving any negative comments. Strange also that your only 2 posts since joining this forum have been to argue with me and snipe at me on my views of Grafenstolz....you don’t have any vested interest in him by any chance do you? You certainly sounds like someone I know....

Anyhow, to answer your question I have seen about 12 G foals....fair enough that might not be a lot however that is more than some people will see of a stallion’s progeny before making a decision on using them. However it does qualify me enough IMO to say whether I personally like what I have seen as well as helping me decide that he does not suit our mare’s (mind you even if he did I would not use him but that is not the stallion’s fault). My other question with him is something someone pointed out the other day which is the fact that IF he has been getting the supposed 150+ mares per season that has been reported, then where are the 450+ 5 -7 yr olds that should be out there competing??? Yes we know he has some very talented offspring out there in the young horse classes...however this is only 5/6 horses.....out of approximately 450 (if his reported stats are accurate). IMO a 1.1% success rate is just simply not good enough! Especially when you compare that to other stallions that may have only had about 50 mares a season and yet have the same 5/6 progeny competing well from the eldest crops..... It is all well and good having all this information spouted out about the fact that Stallion X has had X hundreds of mares per season, however it does come to a point where you have to start asking where are the hundreds of amazing offspring that this stallion should have produced? Fair enough, eventing horses need more time to develop before coming into their own, however more should be coming to the fore....especially as he is likely to have had some very high class mares put to him in Europe. Once again....I am NOT saying I do not like Grafenstolz at all...I have already stated in previous posts that I DO like him....however I don’t like his progeny enough to use him....as alleycat above has said, what you want to see is a stallion that can go to a variety of different mares and consistently produce good offspring...not just producing good offspring from 1/2 out of 150 mares. In addition, you state that all the big stud books love his foals.....well that wasn’t the case at Neumunster last season when the two colts by him were presented and left ungraded...remembering off the top of my head I believe they both sold for around the 8000euro mark but both were ungraded.

Contrary to what you have insinuated, I am not in the business of breeding ‘pretty’ foals.....I want to breed sound durable sport horses....however I am not a person that will just jump onto the latest bandwagon and use a stallion because he is the current ‘in’ thing and has a marketing machine behind him whether he suits my mare or not.....I would much rather keep looking and use the stallion that best suits my mares...whether that means he is based in the UK or abroad; or is a well known stallion or a young up and coming one...... The fruits of these decisions remain to be seen in the future and if the decisions were wrong then so be it. Just last year the name constantly being spouted off of everyone’s lips was Jaguar Mail this Jaguar Mail that...then he did not do as well as hoped at the Olympics and whilst of course still a popular choice, everything has gone quiet on the JM front.....now it is Grafenstolz’s turn to be the ‘talk of the town’....at the end of the day if someone is constantly pushing a stallion so much so that he appears on the cover of every magazine, with write ups, etc. of course that is going to make him seem absolutely the best thing since sliced bread.....but as with anything, a lot of it is hype...once again I am not saying he is not a GOOD stallion, just that I do not personally think he is a GREAT stallion. Not to mention the fact that IF he was sooooo great, why would he have been sold to the UK....the German’s are not stupid and regardless of who is friends with whom, if they loved him over there enough then they would have kept him...you don’t see Schokemohle selling Sandro Boy or Sandro Hit to the UK do you.

Now, I am fully prepared for you to come steaming back in here at me Boxoffrogs however as said, these are MY views and you can agree or disagree...that is your choice however there is something called freedom of speech and everyone is entitled to an opinion. I am not trying to make anyone have the same opinion as me as others are wont to do.....this is, once again my opinon and whilst I know others have the same opinion as I do, whether you agree or disagree with me is your choice.

 

[alleycat]

So how does Polarion himself shape up?

If Grafenstolz doesn't seem to be getting strength in numbers, yet comes from a good motherline and owes his own success to that- how does his sire Polarion perform with other motherlines? Is he getting consistently good stock or is he actually a weakness in Grafnstolz's pedigree?

Must say he looked good to me, but it would be interesting to see other opinions.

 

[alleycat]

[ QUOTE ]
As a Trakhener breeder,

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
this is my specialist subject.


[/ QUOTE ]

I can never spell Trakehner myself, either.

But then it isn't my specialist subject.

You know, I would never normally comment on somebody's spelling- there is dyslexia in my family and I know what misery jibes about spelling can cause.

However, this error, from someone who spells no worse than the rest of us, is just TOO telling.

 

[madmare22]

if they loved him over there enough then they would have kept him...you don’t see Schokemohle selling Sandro Boy or Sandro Hit to the UK do you.

With regards to this comment i think personally you should look at the amount of mares covered by these stallions and then look at hom many of their progeny are not comepeting at a high level, add hotline to that list also, 900 mares in his first season, i know hotline is a fairly young stallion so will not have many comepting.

Sandro Hit too is the result of very good marketing, he only just passed his performance test. Now i am not saying he is not a great stallion, i have used him, sadly i lost the foal, i have also used hotline and have a mare at stud at present who is going to hotline this year.

What i am trying to say although probably am not phrasing it very well is that Sandro Hit was not the best to make a comparison with as he too could be put in the same category as Grafenstolz. Very well marketed and very fashionable stallion.

Breitling would have been a better stallion to use as a comparison, not many mares covered but a v high percentage cometing at GP, not hugely fashionable but a proven sound performer and producer.

Sorry for going off topic but hope you get my jist

 

[Halfstep]

Have a look at this:

http://www.horsehero.com/5201/5214/12575

The big horse "teddy" is by Polarion. Nice!

 

[no_no_nanette]

Don't think that's going too off topic madmare, and you make an interesting point - a friend has just been researching Royaldik, for instance (oh dear, that name!!!

), who does seem to be producing some very impressive offspring, but several of the breeders who have used him and are very thrilled with the result comment on the lack of promotion of him as a sire .... apparently the stud/owner's view is that he gets a very high number of quality mares booked to him every year, so they don't need to support him with lots of glitzy marketing ....

 

[volatis]

I have a feeling a vast number of people who breed to Sandro Hit, are not breeding for a GP performer, but for a flashy, pretty black horse that will do well in young horse classes. Black and flashy sells.

Marketing is important as it helps the breeder sell the foals if everyone has heard of the sire. Thats why I might choose a different stallion if I am breeding for myself for a filly to retain rather than for a colt to sell.

Someone mentioned Van Deyk earlier. Now that is a very under used stallion, never covered many mares at all, yet he produced not only a GP performer and sire in Polarion, but also the rather wonderful brothers Kaiserkult and Kaiserdom. But he's never been marketed much, he's chestnut, and I bet most of you will never have heard of him. But he's one I've had on a shortlist for a while as I think he produces the goods.

 

[madmare22]

i agree with you volatis, if i am looking to keep the offspring i breed what i personally like if it is to definitely sell then i use a popular fashionable well marketed stallion but still one that i think will compliment the mare, there are too many that just go on the sire. I know a girl that covered her welsh cob with Jazz becaues everyone was talking about jazz. Resulting offspring, Bloody horrible.

 

[stolensilver]

I'm always a little dubious when I hear or read that such and such a stallion cannot be any good because if they were the Germans/Dutch would never have sold them. Fortunately the Germans/Dutch do sometimes get it wrong and let a top stallion leave their shores before their true worth was recognised. A striking example is the sire of Herman TG. Herman is an outstanding young horse who has been winning in the UK from the day he started competing. He's as certain a horse to get to international GP as I've ever seen. His sire is a stallion I think most people have never heard of, Harvard. The Germans didn't seem to think much of him as he was sold to Canada. When Herman TG is competing at the World Cup and the Olympics I bet they wished they'd kept him!

Another good stallion that was sold abroad was Mooiman. He went to Chile before being bought by an English rider. He's currently competing international GP and is throwing lovely youngsters who are being placed in the PAVO cup in Holland and young horse classes in the UK.

I also wonder about Lingh. Although his first foal crop was slated his young horses seem to be doing OK. A good riding horse producer is not always a good foal producer. I have an inkling that Lingh may well turn out to be a good producer of competition horses. Current fashionable stallion de jour Belissimo is said not to be a foal producer. His stock show their value once they are under saddle as he stamps them with his good attitude and trainable temperament.

So I'm not put off if a stallion has been bought from one of the big horse producing European countries. They could be a very good stallion indeed.

 

[alleycat]

[ QUOTE ]
Fortunately the Germans/Dutch do sometimes get it wrong and let a top stallion leave their shores before their true worth was recognised.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good!

But surely, this is quite different to a stallion whose worth HAS been recognised and applauded, and who has been widely used, with offspring just coming through into competition?

 

[stolensilver]

Perhaps he cost an awful lot of money? He has already got 2 approved sons.

 

[alleycat]

[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps he cost an awful lot of money? He has already got 2 approved sons.

[/ QUOTE ]
I take it we are talking about Grafenstolz again and not hypothetically.

How much would that be, do you think? A stallion with unlimited covering time ahead of him, since he can cover by AI, but lets give him - totally off the top of my head- 10 years? until the breed moves on and his superior genes are old fashioned... 150 foals a year bottom line; in Ken's email on the other forum he claims between 150 and 320 coverings a year for the past seven years, so lets make it a nice round 200 now that the stallion's worth is known. 1000 euros per cover; 200,000 euros a year in turnover. Even allowing for costs this makes the alleged £200,000 selling price look a bargain. Why sell something that will allegedly pay for itself repeatedly over the next decade?

Whilst I do not doubt the new owner's enthusiasm for his stallion, there is still the real possibility that the horse has an "if"- and that's something that mare owners are bound to consider. Look at the latest revelation about the horses' heart murmur for example; it may be nothing, but it's a nothing that grows in importance the more it is brushed under the carpet. Unfortunately the sales machine now associated with the horse vetos discussion and so creates more. I wouldn't be surprised if this post was censored, which would be a pity; especially as its really meant to be a discussion of Polarion.

The video of Teddy was excellent; anyone know who the mare would be? Is he typical of what Polarion would get, if there is such a thing as typical?

edited to say that I do agree with you that some horses do get unremarkable foals that improve as they mature; I had a mare like that myself; breeding her was always a leap of faith- so I would be quite happy to be shown that the foals which have not impressed me will also blossom; which was why I was interested in seeing pictures or video of G's successful son as a foal.

 

[htobago]

Stolensilver I think your original question/point was a very good one. If G is so great, what about using his sire Polarion? Sounds like a very reasonable idea to me.

Times have changed. My example is from the Arab-breeding world, but the point is still valid I think. A long time ago, back in the 1950s, there was a fabulous Arab stallion called Mikeno - known as 'the dancing stallion' because of his wonderful movement. He sired another possibly even more fabulous stallion called El Meluk. But the owners of El Meluk found it hard to get many mares to their boy - everyone wanted to use his sire Mikeno....because he sired El Meluk and they wanted to breed another like this.

Nowadays, I would bet you anything that El Meluk would be the hugely popular one, and people would forget about the amazing sire who produced him.

In fact this is happening to some extent with two leading Arab sires at the moment - Gazal Al Shaqab and his son Marwan Al Shaqab. Everyone wants to use Marwan, who is hugely fashionable, apart from the very smart breeders at the Polish State studs who still prefer his sire Gazal. Personally I would use Gazal, in the hope of breeding another Marwan!

If I really loved Grafenstolz, I would find a mare as similar as possible to his dam, and breed her to Polarion...

Anyway - just making the point that we have I think become more and more obsessed with novelty, and ignoring the sires of wonderful shiny new stallions is just one symptom of this.

 

[magic104]

If G is so great, what about using his sire Polarion? Sounds like a very reasonable idea to me.

Is the idea not that his son should be an improvement on his sire, so therefore to use the sire is to take a backward step, does that make sense? I am not saying this is always correct but breeding is about improving on what you have, therefore the progeny should be a step up from their parents. Obviously this is not always the case, but you would hope so.

 

[htobago]

[ QUOTE ]
If G is so great, what about using his sire Polarion? Sounds like a very reasonable idea to me.

Is the idea not that his son should be an improvement on his sire, so therefore to use the sire is to take a backward step, does that make sense? I am not saying this is always correct but breeding is about improving on what you have, therefore the progeny should be a step up from their parents. Obviously this is not always the case, but you would hope so.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very good point. Yes, I suppose one would hope that sons would always be an improvement on their sires - although I'm not sure that this is the case as often as it should be, and in some cases the sons may perhaps be better as individuals, but not necessarily better producers... And I do think that sometimes great sires are overlooked in favour of their more fashionable and heavily promoted sons.

I suppose as a breeder it will always depend on how much one likes the damline of any stallion, old or new.

 

[alleycat]

I suppose a lot would depend on whether the offspring is viewed as the next step in a breeding chain or the finished article. Someone who breeds palominos, for example, might deliberately cross a cremello with a chestnut to get what he wants; the resultant horse will be superior from the point of view of being the right colour, but inferior from the point of view of breeding the next generation; unlike its sire it cannot be guaranteed to produce palominos. If the breeder wants breeding stock he'll try to produce something else; a cremello.

It isn't so obvious when considering complex- and sometimes invisible- sports horse characteristics- (competitiveness, temperament, for example), but I suppose the same must apply and as breeders we ought to be considering it. Its so complex that IMO its difficult to judge from looking at the horse himself; the offspring are proof of the pudding, so to speak.

Also, IMO an obvious top horse is actually hugely disadvantaged when it comes to producing offspring as good as himself and the better he is, the greater the disadvantage. By definition the horse is better than all the rest; so what are the chances that his hidden genes are as good as the ones which are dominant / voiced; that his genotype is as good as his attractive phenotype? Also, what are the chances that he is going to cover a mare equally brilliant? Statistically he is not going to get many offspring as good as he is; so general good quality in the offspring is what I would want to see; the odd brilliant one will come through in time.