Police shoot stray horse 19 times!

Daffodil said:
Has there been any progress on this over the weekend.

I've had no responses to ANY of my emails.
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I could not get an email address for the Chief Constable for North Yorks but did write to South Yorks, Chief Constable who replied within 24 hours and has now forwarded my email to Grahame Maxwell.

I have had a reply from North Yorks the case is being dealt with by the Professional Standards Department.
 
Just a thought and absolutely no idea if this is possible but ..

given that all bullets have to be accounted for and given that all bullets cost money, isn't there any way the council tax paying public of whichever Yorkshire council, could request information on spent bullets (by date)? That way, by looking at the financial aspect of it, it may be possible to determine just how many bullets were fired on the day in question. Doesn't that sort of information have to be made public as part of public disclosure of public funding?

And if it is possible to get the information, maybe the national press would take more interest in mis-use of public funds rather than horse abuse?????? which in itself is a sad indictment on society.
 
The Police have to keep a record of ammunition used, but there are sound witnesses, and in time the full story should surface. The shutdown is largely due to the present inquiry. The pressure needs to be kept on the Police to investigate this fully. Apparently there was a similar incident near York when a little escaped bullock died in a hail of Police bullets - which was truly wicked. This sort of behavior has to stop.
 
Nijinsky12 said:
Oh - so that's OK then..!

I can assure everyone that the populace of York are still fuming about this and doing their bit.
:mad:
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In reference to the Post of to the News article, I have just read some of the eye witness accounts - see comments in the News thread at the bottom of the report.
http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/8389688.Police_deny_shooting_stray_horse_19_times/?ref=rss

2 seperate I.Ds refer to photographic evidence.
One is clearly the same person who posted the detailed eye witness report at the beginning of the post.
Does anyone know where these pictures are....... ??? surely the National Press would have the proof - all seems very wierd.
Nijinsky12, what are the locals doing and have they made any progress.
I've had zero response to any of the National papers - I am planning to ring tomorrow to get a verbal response from the papers I contacted if I can.
 
I had an email from Lee Hackett at the BHS yesterday saying that they are investigating this, and appear to having much the same difficulty in making contact with the authorities as the rest of us. But he says "do please rest assured that we are very much involved in looking into it". He also said they very much want to be involved in setting up procedures to make sure this never happens again.


Apart from this, no response from any of the newspapers or WHW.
 
millimoo,
I was not a witness to the events and I do not know who took the photos - I only found out about this on the Tuesday after the event - too late to retrieve the carcasses. Some horse owners in the area still do not know about this as it was only reported in the local evening press. I do know that it will now take a long time for the Police to complete inquires, and until then the full story is unlikely to surface in print. I do know that some of the witnesses have made official complaints and that they are not going to let this be brushed aside. The complaints relate both to the decision made, the proceedures and the conduct/ability of individual officers. The witnesses are supported by a network of farmers, horse owners and concerned members of the public. I fear it will be a long road to the truth. If these poor horses had been so cruelly dispatched by Joe Public the news would have been splattered across the media for all to see. There is you see, a "procedure" for the perpetrators to hide behind, and hope it all goes away.......We cannot let this happen, we have a duty as horse owners to make these people account for their actions. Indeed this should be done in the public interest - to retain any modicum of public confidence in those Police officers who have the special right to carry firearms.
 
N12: Well said. We mustn't let this get brushed aside, and I am still amazed and suspicious about the almost total media clamp-down on this, police enquiry or not. I also want to know that the vet has been interviewed by his professional governing body.
 
Nijinsky12 said:
millimoo,
I was not a witness to the events and I do not know who took the photos - I only found out about this on the Tuesday after the event - too late to retrieve the carcasses. Some horse owners in the area still do not know about this as it was only reported in the local evening press. I do know that it will now take a long time for the Police to complete inquires, and until then the full story is unlikely to surface in print. I do know that some of the witnesses have made official complaints and that they are not going to let this be brushed aside. The complaints relate both to the decision made, the proceedures and the conduct/ability of individual officers. The witnesses are supported by a network of farmers, horse owners and concerned members of the public. I fear it will be a long road to the truth. If these poor horses had been so cruelly dispatched by Joe Public the news would have been splattered across the media for all to see. There is you see, a "procedure" for the perpetrators to hide behind, and hope it all goes away.......We cannot let this happen, we have a duty as horse owners to make these people account for their actions. Indeed this should be done in the public interest - to retain any modicum of public confidence in those Police officers who have the special right to carry firearms.
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Thanks N12, sory if I sounded like you knew - I didn't word my last post very well, and was referring the another post in the thread that's also repeated as a comment item in the news article. Glad to know a lot of people are actively involved in ensuring this doesn't go away.
One of the British Dressage Members have sent a mail to BEVA, and they are also aware already.
 
UPDATE:

I received this from Chief Superintendent Andy McMillan regarding the Incident at Dunnington on 12 September 2010.

"Thank you for contacting the Force in relation to your concerns relating to the shooting of
two horses at Dunnington on 12th September 2010. As a result of this I was commissioned to
review all facets of the incident. My review focused on the police tactics, partnership working
and lessons that could be learnt from this incident. I thought it may be helpful to forward to
you an outline of the reviews findings.

Having considered all of the facts of the incident, it is very clear from the reports from
members of the public and police officers at the scene that the public were in danger from
the horses straying onto nearby A and B roads. A number of attempts were made to corral
the horses and move them to a position where they would not pose a risk to the public.

On the day expert advice was taken from two specialist equine vets and the considered
decision was made that the horses posed a very real and serious threat to public safety,
particularly to those travelling on the nearby A1079.

The use of tranquilising darts was considered but ruled out as the distances involved and
the demeanour of the horses was such that it would not have been successful. Attempts
were made over several hours to resolve the matter without recourse to firearms, although
these attempts did not prove successful. It was therefore decided that the most viable way of
mitigating this risk was to destroy the horses.

The nature of the incident was such that this was an extremely difficult operation for rifle
officers to undertake. There was significant difficulty in gaining an appropriate sight picture
and backdrop whilst also ensuring public safety. Both the location of the incident and the
temperament of the horses made this an extremely difficult task. Due to the demeanour
of the first horse it was not possible for rifle officers to come closer than 300m, thus all but
three of the 18 shots were made at significant distance with a small sight picture of an animal
moving erratically and at speed.

After the first two shots, the first horse had not fallen to the ground so it became imperative to
despatch as soon as possible to prevent unnecessary suffering. This involved an additional
13 shots at distance, utilising the raised vantage point on the back of the police 4x4
vehicle to ensure the shots were fired downwards to maximise public safety. When officers
approached the fallen horse on foot it became apparent that it was still alive, so a further
three shots were used to ensure it was dead.

From the first shot to the last, less than five minutes elapsed with some of this time due to
officers having to cautiously approach the horse on foot as per relevant guidance.

In contrast, the second horse that was posing a danger was despatched instantly by
simultaneous shots fired by two police rifle officers.

Having carefully reviewed the facts surrounding this incident, I am content that relevant
Firearms Commanders, Firearms Officers and Firearms Tactical Advisor behaved in a
professional and competent manner in line with their training and associated national
guidance contained in The Manual of Guidance on the Management, Command and
Deployment of Armed Officers 2009 and The Humane Destruction of Animals by Police-
HOSDB ACPO Firearms July 1998.

Officers have been trained and refreshed in relevant skills and competencies as required.
The firearms and ammunitions used to destroy the horses were in line with guidance
contained within the Guidance on the Management, Command and Deployment of Armed
Officers 2009 and The Humane Destruction of Animals by Police- ACPO Firearms July
1998.

It is a matter of regret that it took 18 rounds to despatch one of the horses, however the
unique nature of the incident posed a number of significant difficulties. The location, the
demeanour of the horses, the failure of traditional resolutions and the significant risks to
public safety made this incident extremely difficult to resolve and firearms were only used by
officers as a last resort.

There are lessons to be learnt in relation to resolving such issues, which thankfully do not
occur frequently. Firearms training is being reviewed with a view to providing officers with
more information in relation to animal handling and behaviour, and we would like to work in
partnership with British Equine Veterinary Association (BEVA) to develop this. Police weapon
systems continue to be reviewed to ensure operational effectiveness. Force processes are
also being reviewed to ensure that we work more closely with our communities and partners
to resolve local problems.

Thank you for taking the time to contact the Force in relation to this matter and please be
reassured that we will continue to review and develop our operational policing responses in
relation to both this and other operational matters.

Yours sincerely

T/Chief Superintendent A McMillan
Director, Specialist Operations
01609 789030"

If this had been a member of the public, it would have been a completely different story. They would be up on charges of animal cruelty. But of course, their own can do no wrong.
 
They took unpleasnt but neccesary action to protect human lives and safety. It wasn't perfect. It wasn't nice. In a perfect world in could have been better.

It wasn't.
But it was necessary.

Deal with it, then join the rest on us on THIS planet when not everything is nice and cute and cuddly and perfect.
 
Daffodil said:
I'm surprised and puzzled that I've received no acknowledgement or follow up to my emails to any of the national newspapers I contacted yesterday, and have now sent them a chasing email with a copy of my original.

I have also emailed World Horse Welfare and the BHS of which I've been a gold member for 35 years.

I hope this is going to be followed up.
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Daffodil, I work in public relations, so deal with the national press on a daily basis. You're unlikely to get a response to an email sent on spec, especially to the editor. The main problem I can see is that this is no longer news (in the eyes of the dailies). If you want to pursue it though - You need to call the newsdesk and speak to a new reporter- they will pick up the story if they think it has mileage. You need to know what you're going to say, and have all the facts at your finger tips - they are incfredibly busy people, and have no time/tolerance for anything but straight, newsworthy information. Nationals are no fun to deal with !

I'll log onto my work system and dig out some numbers for you
 
If the average policeman gets a call about stray horses, his immediate reaction is to take steps - bloody great big ones in the opposite direction!

They know very little about animals at all and want to know even less.

And why is it that every cowboy gunman becomes a "Police Marksman" when in the blue uniform - oops I'm behind the times now eh? They're traded the old ones in for those snazzy combination flacksuits.

You call 'em out - they'll shoot something. If this story is true ( and I have little doubt that it is ) these guys are evil and need their horizons broadened - Helmand will do.
 
gekko said:
They took unpleasnt but neccesary action to protect human lives and safety. It wasn't perfect. It wasn't nice. In a perfect world in could have been better.

It wasn't.
But it was necessary.

Deal with it, then join the rest on us on THIS planet when not everything is nice and cute and cuddly and perfect.
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Dear Gekko - I do hope you made this post without reading all the stuff above - then there's just a slight slap on the wrist for posting without all the info - but if you actually read the way these ignorant trigger-happy so&so's behaved - just because they could - there are not sufficient words to censure!

The keyword here should be - proffessionalism. All the above points to the absolute lack of it.


Oh - and before anyone questions my bona fides - my Army uniform had two crossed rifles with a crown over them - I could give you half a mile start and still drop you.
 
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1stclassalan said:
If the average policeman gets a call about stray horses, his immediate reaction is to take steps - bloody great big ones in the opposite direction!

They know very little about animals at all and want to know even less.

And why is it that every cowboy gunman becomes a "Police Marksman" when in the blue uniform - oops I'm behind the times now eh? They're traded the old ones in for those snazzy combination flacksuits.

You call 'em out - they'll shoot something. If this story is true ( and I have little doubt that it is ) these guys are evil and need their horizons broadened - Helmand will do.
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Well I must assume that my OH is well above average - was previously a Police "Marksman" as you call it - Authorised Firearms Officer is the correct title if you would care to be so precise about everything else, perhaps you could be correct in your address.
He has also no knowledge about the incident as he is in another force, but from what he has read, agrees that something has gone wrong and it should not have happened. However he was not a "cowboy gunman", has not shot anyone and knows plenty about animals, particularly horses - and does not take steps in the opposite direction. Do not tar them all with the same brush.
 
Given the number of people in North Yorkshire (the police area concerned) who have the skill to shoot live animals in a clean and efficient manner, I am astounded that this was dealt with by firearms officers. The West Yorkshire force have called on a member of the public, within the last 12 months to despatch an injured horse as the local knackers firm was an hour away. The mare in question was beyond vetinary help, and was on a public road. The member of the public in question held a firearms license and was known locally as being capable of doing the dead in a quiet and efficient manner. I am still astonished that something similar was not done in the North Yorkshire case. I can think of, and name two people in that area that stalk and shoot deer, so surely they would have been better placed in this instance.
 
Lets face it FestiveG, they could have called on any number of local farmers who would have been able to do a better job! I don't understand why darting wouldn't work, they have a licensed vet around 30 minutes away at Flamingoland. In the time they spent chasing the horses they could have built a smaller safe corral to herd them into, they could have called on any number of the local dealers who are used to dealing with unhandled animals and would have just herded them around to where they needed to be. I think to be honest this is all down to lack of experience and knowledge of working with animals, how frightened must those horses have been to not get nearer that 300m to them, I could not imagine that! I helped at a large dealers, who had fields full (almost 200) of mainly unhandled horses and ponies, we moved them around from area to area with no problem from just a few feet away. I would imagine that NYP have plenty of officers in their own ranks that could have dealt with this efficiently and without loss of life but I doubt they thought to try and find who would be up to the task!

I can only hope that NYP have learned some major lessons from this incident!
 
This is about average for the police it seems they can only catch the law abiding and easy targets!! they pussyfoot around when strong and desive action is required, like the Raul Mote or Cumbria shootings, or a car chase where they allow said car to travel many miles endangering others , and something that requires tact or a little brain they go in hard and heavy like the london solicitor or these horses, hopefully they have learnt from this mishandled cruel and botched opperation...
 
Holly Hocks said:
Well I must assume that my OH is well above average - was previously a Police "Marksman" as you call it - Authorised Firearms Officer is the correct title if you would care to be so precise about everything else, perhaps you could be correct in your address.
He has also no knowledge about the incident as he is in another force, but from what he has read, agrees that something has gone wrong and it should not have happened. However he was not a "cowboy gunman", has not shot anyone and knows plenty about animals, particularly horses - and does not take steps in the opposite direction. Do not tar them all with the same brush.
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HollyHocks, Maintain your cool, looking tall and lovely at the back of the border eh? Kindly note that I clearly posted "the average policeman" and that most certainly has been my experience when rescuing a fair number of other folk's strays over the years not to mention passing squad cars who thought it a good laugh to give me a blast of blues & twos when out on my old mare. My daughter lives with a police dog handler who is a very good sort of bloke so don't think that I'm having a go at police just for being police.

My reference to "cowboys" was specifically aimed ( a keener aim than they seem to have managed ) at the particular armed officers that turned up at the scene. ( I could nitpick again here as I don't suppose there was a true officer among them but the old term constable seems to have fallen by the wayside along with many other standards.)

Take a good long look at the proper Officer's letter above - littered with jargon and P.C.speak, public safety, background picture etc., etc., then admits that fire was opened at 300mts! Furthermore, he tries to say that killing the horses outright proved difficult - with ( Heckler & Koch? ) rifles - these are one of the most accurate and powerful weapons of their type so in my opinion he is turning a rather obnoxious episode into a Watergate cover-up.
 
1stclassalan said:
HollyHocks, Maintain your cool, looking tall and lovely at the back of the border eh? Kindly note that I clearly posted "the average policeman" and that most certainly has been my experience when rescuing a fair number of other folk's strays over the years not to mention passing squad cars who thought it a good laugh to give me a blast of blues & twos when out on my old mare. My daughter lives with a police dog handler who is a very good sort of bloke so don't think that I'm having a go at police just for being police.

My reference to "cowboys" was specifically aimed ( a keener aim than they seem to have managed ) at the particular armed officers that turned up at the scene. ( I could nitpick again here as I don't suppose there was a true officer among them but the old term constable seems to have fallen by the wayside along with many other standards.)

Take a good long look at the proper Officer's letter above - littered with jargon and P.C.speak, public safety, background picture etc., etc., then admits that fire was opened at 300mts! Furthermore, he tries to say that killing the horses outright proved difficult - with ( Heckler & Koch? ) rifles - these are one of the most accurate and powerful weapons of their type so in my opinion he is turning a rather obnoxious episode into a Watergate cover-up.
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Point taken Alan.....I did read the letter and my OH also gets peed off with all the P.C speech and jargon - however he only has 16 months left til retirement, so is putting up with it til then and keeping his mouth shut - he is of the old school of policing.....and yes, he also finds it hard to believe that they couldn't get closer than 300 metres to the horses - unbelievable when you think that there are wild ponies in several areas of Britain and you can get close enough to touch most of them.....
 
1stclassalan said:
....... Take a good long look at the proper Officer's letter above - littered with jargon and P.C.speak, public safety, background picture etc., etc., then admits that fire was opened at 300mts! Furthermore, he tries to say that killing the horses outright proved difficult - with ( Heckler & Koch? ) rifles - these are one of the most accurate and powerful weapons.......
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I will accept that the offered, and quoted letter was from a desk bound copper, who was doing his level best to extricate himself, and the force from what was, in effect, a serious cock up. I would be staggered to hear that a vehicle'd approach couldn't be achieved within 300 meters. I'd be similarly surprised to hear that they expended the amount of ammo, which they've accepted.

There are many points which we know nothing about. We simply weren't there. I don't know if armed POs are dished out with H&Ks, and to be honest, it's an irrelevance. We know nothing of the cartridges with which they were issued, and this probably isn't the place for a discussion on ballistics.

One point with which I will take issue, is the question of "back ground". Reading between the lines, I would think that many of the shots fired, failed to connect with their target. "Back ground" is vital, and this perhaps, could have accounted for the shambles.

As more information becomes available, it would seem that there was a degree of serious error, not just from those who were to dispatch the horses, but importantly, from their advisors.

I'd be happy to go along with the post from Gekko, with the proviso, that ALL Police Forces learn a lesson from this catalogue of errors, and which were of embarrassing proportions.

Alec.
 
I have read all the posts above, and am shocked at the amout of miscalculation from the police force within this one incident.
The police will obviously just ognore this has happened now and will no doubt intent to train more officers to deal with an situation that arrises like this again but with just backs can they really justifly spending money on training officers to deal with large animals.
I am totally shocked that it took 18 shots to deal with one horse and i think that is complete disgrace, it makes my sick to think what that poor chestnut pony suffered.
 
that's utterly discrasfull (cant spell it lol) reading the comment from the lady who was there and witnessed them having there legs blown of then 25 mins later dieing from a bullet to the head, actually made me cry as i sat here reading it and pictuered it :'( i hope somethings done about this, poxy *******ing police :mad::mad::mad:
 
how can anyone try to justify what these cruel Bxxxxxxds did? public safety my axse! the officers involved should be removed immediately from firearms duty locked up in jail, then prosecuted and put in prison for a very long time, i feel there is no excuse, no reason , are we supposed to be civilised or what? i make no appologies for these strong words, in fact i am at a loss as to how best express an opinion, are they dead from the neck up or something?
 
I know someone in the Halifax area who often is called to round up loose horses and ponies - usually of the 'travelling community variety', They have had occasion to tranquillise at least one - and it is fraught with risk, but completely do-able. I can't understand why, on this occasion, the horses couldn't be contained and traffic diverted. I also wonder what caused them to gallop about madly in the first place. Who owned the horses and what is to be done about THEM?
 
I'm just going to add a line or two about this business of "Background Picture" - now to ordinary folk this would be just plain background - two ponies standing in the foreground - everything behind them is background - or background picture if you're a police "marksman."

That background picture was one of the quoted reasons for standing on top of a 4x4 to open fire so that the bullets would travelling downwards.

Now, I ask you - just how downwards would that be - from 300 mtrs???

I'd also like to know what kind of sight these marksmen had fitted to the weapons - telescopic perhaps?

I'm going to write to that police officer above and hopefully get some answers and will post his reply.
 
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