Polite tabards and your horse

criso said:
I'm sure there are, I have also seen many links to motoring forums talking about how horses shouldn't be on the road and scaring riders and how funny it is when they fall off.

Not sure it is possible to placate this minority of aggressive drivers who don't want to share the roads with horses (or cycles, or tractors or pedestrians etc etc )
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Your not wrong there , nothing will change these really aggressive drivers except perhaps , 600 kilos of horse coming though their windscreen
 
I just brought a new one and have had many many many police cars pass me. So I do not believe they are illegal until Its actual brought into place,

I will continue to use mine
 
Donkey said:
Personally, if they have been banned then brilliant! The whole Polite range is just a major wind up for motorists I think and making the horse world look like a bigger bunch of idiotic toffs than already perceived by members of Joe Public not a bad thing in my opinion at all.
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Agree with this. I cringe everytime I see riders wearing the stuff, they look so naff.

Plain Hi Viz (without the pseudo police look) and a well trained horse works just fine.
 
They are not illegal, the only comments I've ever heard from ACTUAL police, and not wives of, cousins of, next door neighbours of the sister's dog, is in support.

I've also seen motorcyclists do up certain bikes to look like police bikes, which is a pain because a police bike is FAR more likely to pull you over at 90....

If they're illegal, so is fancy dress costume... just think about it! Unless you're trying to arrest people, you're doing no wrong!
 
I find it hard to believe that a police officer went into a tack shop and told them about a directive, promising to bring the print out later :eek: I am pretty sure that if he was on duty at the time, he would have taken it with him, this just appears to me to be a wind up and rumour mongering.
 
The tack shop owner is our mate and is above board. She may have not been told the whole story, but the statement that she has issued will be the situation as she understood it.
 
glamourpuss said:
My friend has a brilliant one that says 'Does my bum look big in this?'
She claims it is the most effective hi-viz she's ever worn. People always slow down & smile at her :D
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:D:D Love that! I want one of those! Having said that I wore my POLITE hi-Viz this weekend on two long rides - I did see the police as I was riding along and as usual they took no notice of me except to pass wide (and fairly) slow as usual. But they didn't stop to mention it. They have seen me often actually and have never reacted to the range in any way.
 
EstherYoung said:
The tack shop owner is our mate and is above board. She may have not been told the whole story, but the statement that she has issued will be the situation as she understood it.
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It's just not how the police can act in this country laws are framed then prosecutions brought the laws are tested by the courts and case law is built up on the back of the judgements taken .
If the police are acting in this way it is extremely worrying and if it happened to me I would contacting the police commissioner for the area and my MP.
 
I rode out with my friend on saturday....who works for the police in a civilian capacity ( she is counter corruption or something)....she did tell me that there was an issue with the Polite gear...not that people were impersonating the law, but that Joe Public were mistaking riders wearing it for mounted police. Subtle difference.


That said.....anyone know where I can get a pink 'Please pass wide and slow tabard'?.......
 
Hippona said:
I rode out with my friend on saturday....who works for the police in a civilian capacity ( she is counter corruption or something)....she did tell me that there was an issue with the Polite gear...not that people were impersonating the law, but that Joe Public were mistaking riders wearing it for mounted police. Subtle difference.


That said.....anyone know where I can get a pink 'Please pass wide and slow tabard'?.......
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This may well be true but it's not illegal to wear something that other people mistake I know people often mistake me for a mounted police officer when I am on OH's horse because he looks just like one I wear a dark navy coat and over trousers and black hat and the horse wears a hi viz exercise sheet but I am not breaking any laws.
 
Well I hope if they're going to be arresting horse riders for dressing up as the police then they'll be arresting small children for doing the same with their dressing up clothes too!

Just as ridiculous and unlikely to happen if you ask me.
 
Goldenstar, someone wants to talk to you ;):confused:

"Equisafety -
Goldenstar from the Horse and Hound forum, please can you contact the office :-)
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Equisafety - The office number is 0151 678 7182
5 minutes ago · Like"
 
I think its really very simple. The basic law making it illegal to impersonate a police officer is already in place & not up for debate. But what constitutes impersonating a police officer is down to interpretation. As so far nobody has been prosecuted for impersonating a police officer by wearing hi-viz, we can assume it is interpreted as being acceptable. The only way to change that would be by issuing a well publicized directive, &/or judicial precedent, basically a judge in a court of law ruling polite hi-viz constituted impersonating a police officer. Not random rumours.
A lot of English laws are just down to interpretation, & intent. Easiest explanation would be a local by-law saying 'no dogs'. If you took a female dog in you couldn't say 'yes, but its not a dog, its a bitch' because the obvious interpretation is that the sign is meant to keep canines out, not just male dogs. Which is why fancy dress costumes are legal, because they have been interpreted as being so.
 
I love my equisafety hatband and polite tabard and often wear it when hacking or leading horses on the roads. Always get cheery waves from drivers and passing police car drivers too.

Anything that makes us more visible on roads and that makes other road users wake out of automatic pilot is a good thing.
 
Feels like someone, somewhere, needs to sort this out for good and for all!

For example, it would need some big-cheese like the BHS for instance to contact the Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) Traffic department, and find out exactly WHAT the situation is.

Until something like this happens, we'll all go on either using the stuff or not using it, as the case may be - and there will continue to be this debate.

Of course, had the company concerned done their homework properly BEFORE putting the range on the market, and consulted with the relevant authorities such as the police, it would have made far more sense wouldn't it. But obviously commercial interests were paramount.
 
Littlelegs said:
I think its really very simple. The basic law making it illegal to impersonate a police officer is already in place & not up for debate. But what constitutes impersonating a police officer is down to interpretation. As so far nobody has been prosecuted for impersonating a police officer by wearing hi-viz, we can assume it is interpreted as being acceptable. The only way to change that would be by issuing a well publicized directive, &/or judicial precedent, basically a judge in a court of law ruling polite hi-viz constituted impersonating a police officer. Not random rumours.
A lot of English laws are just down to interpretation, & intent. Easiest explanation would be a local by-law saying 'no dogs'. If you took a female dog in you couldn't say 'yes, but its not a dog, its a bitch' because the obvious interpretation is that the sign is meant to keep canines out, not just male dogs. Which is why fancy dress costumes are legal, because they have been interpreted as being so.
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Good post Littlelegs,
Everyone if you have a polite jacket and wear it continue to do so if you don't like them don't.
But what ever you do if you have a polite jacket to hack out in don't stop
wearing it , don't risk not being seen because of a Internet rumour .
 
1) By wearing this tabard, has an offence technically been committed? Yes, as there is intent to deceive the public into thinking the wearer is a police officer. (if you weren't intending to look like a police officer you would wear plain hi-viz)

2) Following on from 1) above, is the wearer likely to be prosecuted? Unlikely, but not impossible.

It's a grey area, no single force or police officer can give a definitive answer as the offence of impersonating a police officer is open to interpretation by the individual. Asking one or two members of one police force and getting the answer 'well, I think it's ok and I wouldn't arrest you' does NOT mean the product is approved by all the police in the UK.

The simple facts are as above - things like 'I've worn mine for years and had no trouble with the police' do NOT mean that someone in a different area may not get spoken to about wearing theirs, and does NOT mean you won't should you be spotted by a different officer. And just because no-one has been prosecuted yet, it does not mean there won't be a prosecution in future.

If you are happy to accept the risks then you continue wearing it, if not then don't :)
 
Pelican said:
1) By wearing this tabard, has an offence technically been committed? Yes, as there is intent to deceive the public into thinking the wearer is a police officer. (if you weren't intending to look like a police officer you would wear plain hi-viz)

2) Following on from 1) above, is the wearer likely to be prosecuted? Unlikely, but not impossible.

It's a grey area, no single force or police officer can give a definitive answer as the offence of impersonating a police officer is open to interpretation by the individual. Asking one or two members of one police force and getting the answer 'well, I think it's ok and I wouldn't arrest you' does NOT mean the product is approved by all the police in the UK.

The simple facts are as above - things like 'I've worn mine for years and had no trouble with the police' do NOT mean that someone in a different area may not get spoken to about wearing theirs, and does NOT mean you won't should you be spotted by a different officer. And just because no-one has been prosecuted yet, it does not mean there won't be a prosecution in future.

If you are happy to accept the risks then you continue wearing it, if not then don't :)
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But you are making the judgement there as to what judgement would be made about intent .
Is a play on words intent to deceive or a joke ?
Or is it factual Polite PLease slow down .
Do the police wear jackets that say please slow down I don't think so.
Where would the public interest be in the CPS spending tax payers money on a case like this nowhere I can think of.
 
Goldenstar said:
But you are making the judgement there as to what judgement would be made about intent .
Is a play on words intent to deceive or a joke ?
Or is it factual Polite PLease slow down .
Do the police wear jackets that say please slow down I don't think so.
Where would the public interest be in the CPS spending tax payers money on a case like this nowhere I can think of.
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If there is no intent to deceive, then why wear this instead of a plain tabard? Or a tabard that says 'Please Pass Wide and Slow' with no blue chequers - that's asking people to slow down too.

If I were to paint my car white, put blue chequers and hi viz panels on it and then paint 'POLITE please slow down' on the boot and sides to stop people tailgating me (a very dangerous driving habit), is that also 'just a joke' or am I intending to deceive?

What I ACTUALLY said was 'the offence of impersonating a police officer is open to interpretation by the individual'

If you take the offence of impersonation at it's most basic then it is the intent to deceive members of the public into thinking you are a police officer ("wearing a police uniform calculated to deceive" copied from CPS), so yes technically the offence has been committed. As to whether you would then be stopped, arrested or taken to court, as I said it's down to the individual interpretation. Mostly, prosecution is reserved for those who impersonate with intent to harm, or those who do it for financial gain.

I have said nothing about 'oh my goodness, they are illegal, everyone will get arrested!', I have merely stated that it's not as clear cut as 'they're totally illegal' or 'they are totally legal', it's a grey area open for interpretation and anyone wearing the tabards has to accept that until this goes one way or the other across the entire UK legal system, there is a potential risk to wearing one.

Whether people do or not is up to them, but they should at least be correctly informed as to the risks in order that they may accept them, as opposed to wearing them assuming there is no risk because 'my mate on a forum said it would be fine cos they've had one for ages and had no trouble'

ETA I am also not saying that I think that prosecuting people for the wearing of these items is a good use of police time or that it should be done, just that the possibility is there for it to happen. It's a bit like people moaning that a speed limit on a particular stretch of road is ridiculous and the police shouldn't prosecute those who travel 10mph faster as it's safe to do so in their opinion and they should be out catching real criminals - yet the fact remains that until the limit is changed, if you exceed it you are breaking the law, whether or not you get caught and whether or not you have an accident. Ok not an exact parallel but you get the picture.
 
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On the other side people saying don't buy that people on the forum say its intent to impersonate a police officer could damage a company employing people with real families ,paying real mortgages and bringing up real children.
Something strange is driving these rumours .
 
Had a lovely hack out yesterday, shock horror, wearing my Polite tabbard. In fact, both of us riders were wearing one.

All motorists were polite and slowed down and received cheery waves from us.

My horse is a 15.2 extremely hairy and muddy cob.

The naysayers on this thread come across as a bit snarky really.
 
Goldenstar said:
On the other side people saying don't buy that people on the forum say its intent to impersonate a police officer could damage a company employing people with real families ,paying real mortgages and bringing up real children.
Something strange is driving these rumours .
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Agreed. Something is not quite right, is it.
 
Serephin said:
.

The naysayers on this thread come across as a bit snarky really.
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I am not 'being a naysayer', I am saying quite clearly IMO that wearing an item that looks like police uniform with intent to deceive (and the intent is there) CAN BE interpreted as impersonation depending on the individual concerned.

I have made NO statements such as 'anyone wearing these WILL BE PROSECUTED'. Just tried to politely (hah!) point out that there is a potential risk.

It's naive in the extreme to just wear it without question, whereas if you are aware that there is a risk, however small, you are then able to make an informed decision whether to wear it or not. I've not said 'they must be banned and removed from sale' or made any judgement on anyone who chooses to wear one because it's a choice that each individual has to make.

FWIW I considered purchasing the hat band and the tabard that just has the chequer pattern on it without the 'POLITE' bit, but as I don't generally hack out any more as my mare just isn't safe with traffic, I won't bother.

Oh and don't start with the 'lost sales' bit - Equisafety make other items as well as the POLITE range so I hardly think that a thread stating there's a potential risk with wearing these items is going to lead to them going bust and living on the streets, is it? Anyone who goes into business has to accept that not every single person is going to be singing their praises, even massive companies like Starbucks or Ford etc have to deal with customers being 'naysayers'.
 
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Our tackshop mate is trying to scan the paperwork that the police gave her in for us.

I've got no gripes with either side - we spent a long time on a neighbouring tradestand to the equisafety lady at a couple of events and always found her quite reasonable with good stuff for sale (indeed I won one of her original hi hiz jackets in a competition and it lasted me for years).

I think there is something weird going on here. Either:

- There truly is a Hi-viz 'war' going on between the two 'main' hi-viz equestrian companies.
- The visit from the police at Wharfedale was just an over zealous copper (but then how does that explain Your Horse pulling their free gifts?)
- WY Police have decided they don't like the hi viz range
- Someone is on the verge of getting sued
- Somebody connected with the industry has seriously peed someone off

Any other theories anyone would like to throw into the mix?
 
EstherYoung said:
I think there is something weird going on here. Either:

- There truly is a Hi-viz 'war' going on between the two 'main' hi-viz equestrian companies.
- The visit from the police at Wharfedale was just an over zealous copper (but then how does that explain Your Horse pulling their free gifts?)
- WY Police have decided they don't like the hi viz range
- Someone is on the verge of getting sued
- Somebody connected with the industry has seriously peed someone off

Any other theories anyone would like to throw into the mix?
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Or a combination of. The YH thing might just be knee-jerk (risk avoidance). All very weird though.

And I LOVE that picture on the right in your sig. Fabulous :D
 
It's not down to individual police officers, or even forces to decide how to interpret law. They may have the power to bring charges against someone for impersonating a police officer, assuming the cps even went through with it, but the job of actually interpreting the law to see if it was actually impersonating an officer would come down to a judge. And even then someone of average intelligence could appeal without expensive legal representation right through the court system, by which point the cps would be forced to concede due to pressure over the waste of public funds. In the UK, interpretation of law is not within the power of the police at even national level, let alone local or individual level.
 
Pelican said:
It's naive in the extreme to just wear it without question, whereas if you are aware that there is a risk, however small, you are then able to make an informed decision whether to wear it or not.
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Well, there's the rub, isn't it. I requested one for a present having seen them talked about on here (a while ago now) - and consequently seeing that they had been approved by the police. (apparently this is not the case now) So I wouldn't consider myself naive.

The tabbard proved quite effective, although thinking about it, the majority of road users where I ride are good any way as we are a horsey area, so difficult to ascertain if it was of any major benefit than wearing my 'normal' high vis. Maybe I should do an experiment.

FWIW I think the risk of getting hauled up by the Fuzz is negligible and this is getting a bit hysterical (not aimed at you Pelican). Someone has started a rumour and everyone is getting in a lather - as it seems people do these days.
 
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