Polite tabards and your horse

MerrySherryRider

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I think there is something weird going on here. Either:

- There truly is a Hi-viz 'war' going on between the two 'main' hi-viz equestrian companies.
- The visit from the police at Wharfedale was just an over zealous copper (but then how does that explain Your Horse pulling their free gifts?)
- WY Police have decided they don't like the hi viz range
- Someone is on the verge of getting sued
- Somebody connected with the industry has seriously peed someone off

Any other theories anyone would like to throw into the mix?

It's much more simple than that. The range is designed to make the motorist on first sight, in a spilt second, to subconsciously think, 'Police/penalty points/speed check/brake.'

Having then registered that it is not a police horse and rider, the motorist feels conned, even those who would have taken care passing the horse. It alienates responsible drivers and alienates the bad drivers and reinforces negative feelings towards horses on the road.

Riders do inconvenience other road users, so surely its better to wear plain hi viz, ride considerately and thank drivers for their patience rather than fooling them into submission ?
 

OldNag

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Well, there's the rub, isn't it. I requested one for a present having seen them talked about on here (a while ago now) - and consequently seeing that they had been approved by the police. (apparently this is not the case now) So I wouldn't consider myself naive.
...

.

Me too. I bought mine at the time when the ad wording indicated something along the lines of "Police approved". (Can't remember what the exact wording was). So I wasn't naive, IMO, in buying it.

I am now wondering whether I should continue wearing it. Although I have never had problems wearing it,and have never had any negative response from drivers. My reasons for considering ceasing to wear it are:-

a) if I might be risking alienating motorists
b) if they are going to end up "police disapproved" rather than "police approved", if you see what I mean.

I will be annoyed at having to fork out again for a jacket though, as I bought it good faith.
 
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Serephin

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Having then registered that it is not a police horse and rider, the motorist feels conned, even those who would have taken care passing the horse. It alienates responsible drivers and alienates the bad drivers and reinforces negative feelings towards horses on the road.

Oh c'mon, thats purely conjecture.
 

Penks

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Equisafety have released a statement on their Facebook page - link below.....


https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=453082398098969&id=177348828956663


From the above link .......

"Equisafety - · 10,184 like this.
4 hours ago · ..

OFFICIAL STATEMENT.
WITHOUT PREJUDICE.

Dear Customer.

With reference to the recent Police directive we would like to apologise for any confusion that their communication may have caused.

The POLITE range was only manufactured after this positive response by Association of Chief Police Officer (ACPO) Lead of Mounted Policing, Commander Robert Broadhurst from the Metropolitan Police who stated the following;
“Provided there is no deliberate attempt to impersonate Police there us very little we can do other than perhaps ask them to ensure the word looks more like polite than police. Assuming they have no items of police uniform it is unlikely the public will mistake them for us but if they do it will just be another High Visibility Patrol which should add to the reassurance picture.

The law regarding this is so ambiguous as to be confusing, otherwise the new ACPO lead for the Mounted Police would not have had to interpret the law and issue ‘new’ guide lines, which are at best unclear and perhaps even more confusing than ever.

The implementation of the ‘new’ guidelines is also quite irresponsible and could certainly cause riders to remove their ‘Hi-Visibilty’ clothing if approached by an officer and we are also completely astounded by it.

In particular we would draw your attention to the Crime Prosecution Service (CPS) which states the following; http://www.cps.gov.uk/index.html
Impersonating a Police Officer.
Section 90 Police Act 1996 creates several offences to the Impersonation of Police Officers or the possession of articles of Police uniform, namely:
• Impersonating a Police Officer (including a special constable)
• Making a statement or doing any act calculated falsely to suggest membership of a Police Force
• Wearing a Police uniform calculated to deceive
• Possessing an article of Police uniform

The circumstances of the case may disclose more than one of these offences, it will seldom be necessary to charge more than one offence. You should select the most appropriate.

You should consider the motive of the defendant where the impersonation involves a threat to the safety of any person, or to property, or is done with a view to financial gain, then a prosecution should follow.
We are not aware of a single criminal act of intent to impersonate a Police Officer in the past 3 years of selling the POLITE range.

Consider this Scenario -
Rider cautioned whilst out hacking,
Result -
Rider removes HighVisibility safety apparel
Conclusion
Rider is now at a higher risk of a road traffic accident.


We suggest if approached by a Police Officer you explain why you need HighVisibility clothing and ask what crime they think you intend to commit.

We categorically do not recommend you remove your HighVisibility products whilst on a public highway.
As there have been no reported incidents of crime related to wearing Hi-Visibility clothing we have no idea why the new ACPO leader is directing officers to caution innocent members of the public?
We would welcome any definitive solution to this issue as long as it included proper, considered communication which responsibly deals with the ‘real issue’ of road safety and delivers comfort to the general public whilst satisfying the’ true’ intent of the legislation which is of course, tackling crime.

Equisafety has always been committed to high visibility road safety and we would like to take this opportunity to thank you all for the massive support we have received so far. We can assure you that we will be seeking a more responsible approach from the Police via the relevant authorities.

Nicola Fletcher MA
Managing Director of Equisafey Ltd"
 

criso

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I think there is something weird going on here. Either:

- There truly is a Hi-viz 'war' going on between the two 'main' hi-viz equestrian companies.
- The visit from the police at Wharfedale was just an over zealous copper (but then how does that explain Your Horse pulling their free gifts?)
- WY Police have decided they don't like the hi viz range
- Someone is on the verge of getting sued
- Somebody connected with the industry has seriously peed someone off

Any other theories anyone would like to throw into the mix?

The Police statement reads
"Over recent months a number of examples of high visibility equine apparel have been brought to my attention."

Makes me wonder if pressure has been put on police to make a judgement on this. I would add to the theories above that motorist groups have been putting pressure on the police regarding this forcing them to take a stand.

I don't own a polite item (though I have other equisafety stuff) but there is something about this whole affair that I'm not comfortable with. Actually makes me want to go out buy some and were I to be stopped, challenge the interpretation and application of the law.
 

Abbeygale

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Equi safety's press release seems to be advising people to ignore police directives and argue the toss with a copper should they stop you!! Surely that doesn't make sense???

I wonder if any letters like this have been issued from any other police force?
 

Hexx

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I still can't see any "clarification" from either of those statements - particularly the police one. I have asked a friend who works for the Thames Valley Force - he's going to make some enquiries. I will also ask our Farrier's wife who is part of the London Armed Response Unit if she's heard anything.
 
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Goldenstar

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The Police statement reads
"Over recent months a number of examples of high visibility equine apparel have been brought to my attention."

Makes me wonder if pressure has been put on police to make a judgement on this. I would add to the theories above that motorist groups have been putting pressure on the police regarding this forcing them to take a stand.

I don't own a polite item (though I have other equisafety stuff) but there is something about this whole affair that I'm not comfortable with. Actually makes me want to go out buy some and were I to be stopped, challenge the interpretation and application of the law.

You and me both .
 

caseycat

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I've checked back over the last 6 pages and couldn't see any mention of it, but sorry if already been said, but i just noticed v-bandz have a statement on their home page saying they will no longer be selling them and advise to stop wearing until a solution has been found.
 

OldNag

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Well, I am now wondering what to do. I bought my tabard under the impression that it was Police approved, (whichis what their ad at the time said), it looks like it wasn't.

I think that to play safe I am going to get a plain one but it sucks that I've spent good money on something that it could be not worth the risk of wearing.

One thing is for sure.. I am not going go out without hi viz.
 

Pelican

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I think the police statement is very clear here:

"The ultimate decision about the legitimacy of any individual product is yet to be defined conclusively by any court, but the legal standard as enacted is an objective measure of whether the clothing worn by an individual, and/or their horse, would give the impression that that rider is a police officer when they are not. As such, any wording displayed on clothing which is similar in appearance to ‘POLICE’ (i.e.in shape,format or font used on police uniform),even if it is spelt differently, would leave the wearer at risk of breaching the law, particularly if the other characteristics are present."

This is basically the same as what has already been said - until such time as it's been completely clarified, not one person can say 'oh, it will be fine cos I asked my mate who is a copper and s/he said it would be' or whatever else, nor can someone say 'it's definitely going to lead to you being arrested'.

All anyone can say is that if a particular officer or force decides to interpret the wearing of these items to the exact letter of the law (wearing with intent to deceive - and anyone who wants to keep disputing the 'deceive' part, tell me why else you would be wearing it?! The item RELIES on looking like a police officer at first glance to get the desired effect.) you may be in trouble. (please note I used the word 'may', not 'will'...)

Knowing this, it's then down to the wearer as to whether they continue to wear it, or not. Same applies to anyone looking to purchase the items - it's your choice whether to take the risk or not.

I wonder what the stance would be if the POLITE wording were removed, but the blue/silver check remained? You can buy ex-police jackets etc on ebay (as has been mentioned already) which have no wording but do have the check bands.

The previous advertising of 'police approved' was misleading and was deemed such by the ASA, I believe that wording has now been removed but may still be hanging around on other retailers websites - Equisafety themselves no longer use it on their website, but I have seen it used on ebay adverts, for example.
 

Goldenstar

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I think the police statement is very clear here:

"The ultimate decision about the legitimacy of any individual product is yet to be defined conclusively by any court, but the legal standard as enacted is an objective measure of whether the clothing worn by an individual, and/or their horse, would give the impression that that rider is a police officer when they are not. As such, any wording displayed on clothing which is similar in appearance to ‘POLICE’ (i.e.in shape,format or font used on police uniform),even if it is spelt differently, would leave the wearer at risk of breaching the law, particularly if the other characteristics are present."

This is basically the same as what has already been said - until such time as it's been completely clarified, not one person can say 'oh, it will be fine cos I asked my mate who is a copper and s/he said it would be' or whatever else, nor can someone say 'it's definitely going to lead to you being arrested'.

All anyone can say is that if a particular officer or force decides to interpret the wearing of these items to the exact letter of the law (wearing with intent to deceive - and anyone who wants to keep disputing the 'deceive' part, tell me why else you would be wearing it?! The item RELIES on looking like a police officer at first glance to get the desired effect.) you may be in trouble. (please note I used the word 'may', not 'will'...)

Knowing this, it's then down to the wearer as to whether they continue to wear it, or not. Same applies to anyone looking to purchase the items - it's your choice whether to take the risk or not.

I wonder what the stance would be if the POLITE wording were removed, but the blue/silver check remained? You can buy ex-police jackets etc on ebay (as has been mentioned already) which have no wording but do have the check bands.

The previous advertising of 'police approved' was misleading and was deemed such by the ASA, I believe that wording has now been removed but may still be hanging around on other retailers websites - Equisafety themselves no longer use it on their website, but I have seen it used on ebay adverts, for example.

Personally if I wore a polite jacket I can tell you categorically that I would be wearing it because I consider the wording ironic.
 

criso

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I don't think it is that clear and is very much open to interpretation.

Take the following link below for fancy dress.

http://www.creativeparties.co.uk/fa...ge_title=Boys&group_ID=114&group_title=Police

The boy top centre is displaying all three elements highlighted in the statement
The colour yellow
the checkers
In this case the actual word police

But no one would for a minute think there is any case to answer because of the context, the intent and other indicators e.g. he is under 4 foot high.

Are they saying if you put him on a horse on a public road it becomes an offence because he is wearing those items. Of course not.

In the same way if I wore that range I would not be intending to deceive or impersonate an officer, I don't want people coming up to me and telling me about crimes. There would be plenty of other indicators to suggest I am not a policewoman. I would be wearing it to attract the drivers attention, to draw their attention to you long enough to see your request to slow down and consider how they drive around my horse.

I don't believe it would fool anyone who is concentrating and paying attention to their surroundings but someone who is already going too fast so they do not register the full picture may momentarily be mistaken.

The drivers that complained are only doing so because they feel they were tricked into driving sensibly and otherwise would have driven dangerously. This is only an issue if you only intend to drive properly only if there is a risk of being arrested.

I was bringing my horse back from hospital yesterday and spotted a police car behind me, after checking it wasn't on an emergency and I didn't need to find somewhere to let it past, I didn't change my behaviour at all because I wasn't doing anything wrong.

As I said before the statement makes me think that pressure has been put on the police and the two most likely sources are a rival company or disgruntled motoring groups. I don't think either should be allowed to influence the interpretation of the law and I think that this should be challenged on that basis.

I suspect this will be challenged so I would suggest to anyone worried gets a bit of masking tape and covers up the word Polite, or even reflective tape to make it even more visible. Saves the expense and hassle of trying to return items and get a refund. You can take the tape off if further clarification confirms it's OK.

I would like to respectfully suggest that if even with cuts police have so much time and resources to spend on horses on the road; then it would be better spent educating drivers and applying the law strictly to those who drive dangerously around horses.

Surely safety should be the real issue not this distraction
 

criso

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Pelican do you mind me asking your interest in this matter.

It just can look a bit suspicious when someone joins HHO to post on a single thread and makes me wonder if they have some connection.

In the same way as many people asked a similar poster earlier on if he had a connection with Equisafety.
 

webble

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Personally I think there are better options on the market at a better price anyway.

Police horses arent that commonly seen so its not that likely that at first glance someone would think you are police anyway so having polite notice on you just sounds odd (and a bit daft IMHO)
 

webble

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It's much more simple than that. The range is designed to make the motorist on first sight, in a spilt second, to subconsciously think, 'Police/penalty points/speed check/brake.'

Having then registered that it is not a police horse and rider, the motorist feels conned, even those who would have taken care passing the horse. It alienates responsible drivers and alienates the bad drivers and reinforces negative feelings towards horses on the road.

Riders do inconvenience other road users, so surely its better to wear plain hi viz, ride considerately and thank drivers for their patience rather than fooling them into submission ?

Completely agree with this
 

Pelican

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In the same way if I wore that range I would not be intending to deceive or impersonate an officer, I don't want people coming up to me and telling me about crimes. There would be plenty of other indicators to suggest I am not a policewoman. I would be wearing it to attract the drivers attention, to draw their attention to you long enough to see your request to slow down and consider how they drive around my horse.

I don't believe it would fool anyone who is concentrating and paying attention to their surroundings but someone who is already going too fast so they do not register the full picture may momentarily be mistaken.

Normal hi-viz without the 'imitiation copper' stuff on it will do exactly the same thing. The ONLY difference is that with the polite clothing, people will think it is 'police' at first glance. From 5 yards away, it's clear but not from 50 yards away!

And Criso, my 'interest' in this is road safety.

Wear it, or don't wear it and that is down to personal choice at the moment - if the wearer thinks it worth the risk that's fine, equally if they don't, that's fine too.

Road safety is a HUGE passion of mine (I tutor advanced driving) and I am closely involved with the road safety partnership in my area and with that comes working with the police and fire service, talking to people at road safety events, testing their reaction times etc etc. Knowing what I know about road safety and driver attitudes, I do not believe for one minute that these tabards are overall any more or less effective than bog standard hi viz if you spread the driver reactions over time.

If you took a random quantity of drivers passing horses, then you will always get those who are considerate (in which case it doesn't matter what you're wearing), those who are less so but through ignorance, those who are impatient and then those who are downright dangerous.

Once drivers know that these items of clothing are not 'the real deal', they are not going to act any differently. The range relies on that perception to slow down the ignorant, impatient and careless/dangerous drivers - to make them think there is a reason to slow down (that "ooops, it's a copper" reaction) as opposed to just a horse and rider. If one of the dangerous types passes a horse and rider wearing it, slows and then realises they've been duped, their mindset is usually such that next time they pass the same rider or even a different one wearing the clothing they will behave no differently to normal which usually involves passing too close and too fast.

Maybe, if the companies that made these ranges were to instead work with their local BHS and road safety teams that would have more impact on horse and rider safety on the roads.

ETA I'm a road user in 4 different ways - with my horse, as a driver, a cyclist and also as a motorcyclist. Since I've been involved with road safety work, I've begun to realise that attitude is often the biggest part of the problem. Different road users rarely have respect for one another, each believing their rights are greater than the others. I wish I knew the answer to how to fix it!
 
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Munchkins

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Two things spring to mind:
1/ V-Bandz did not claim the range was Police Approved - Equisafety did, V-Bandz offer a remedy - Equisafety aren't. In fact, Equisfety appear to be positively encouraging riders to go out wearing it - which is irresponsible given the Directive that has been issued. Do I sue Equisafety if I now have a problem wearing my Polite products?

2/ This could turn into something positive if it opens a debate into safety issues with horses and traffic. Just because the chequered stuff has worked doesn't mean nothing else does. Surely now is the right time to encourage discussion and awareness? More than the "Think Horse" campaigns might have ever hoped to achieve.
Instead of moping about the "lost" opportunity to pretend to be Police - let's put our heads together and work on a solution!
 

Pelican

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2/ This could turn into something positive if it opens a debate into safety issues with horses and traffic. Just because the chequered stuff has worked doesn't mean nothing else does. Surely now is the right time to encourage discussion and awareness? More than the "Think Horse" campaigns might have ever hoped to achieve.
Instead of moping about the "lost" opportunity to pretend to be Police - let's put our heads together and work on a solution!

Well said Munchkin!
 

teapot

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I'm torn over the whole thing, primarily because I spend so much of my time in London and regularly see both the Met and City police on mounted patrols and their jackets are distinctly different - the checkers are in the wrong place for a start.

But I guess so few people see mounted police these days they would probably immediately think it was the police...
 

MerrySherryRider

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Why do the polite fans think there's a conspiracy theory ? The product is naff, the company are basically just giving riders instructions on how to talk to police if they are stopped, which is pretty shabby, given that they have received a directive stating the police's position on the range.

The bottom line is, that Equisafety are on a money spinner and don't want to stop making the stuff.
They are seemingly quite happy for their customers to wear a product that might get them in trouble with the law.

And, why does anyone think they are safer looking like a pretend police rider when in reality, if they are wearing good quality normal hi viz, and can be seen, motorists will try not to run them down. Ok, it may only be because they don't want to dent their cars or be held up in an RTA, but ordinary Hi Viz does the job, otherwise, the highways agency H&S dept would be issuing council road workers with fake police hi viz too.
 

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Just for info, the situation resulting from the guidance issued by the Association of Chief Police Officers is one of our lead news stories in this Thursday's Horse & Hound magazine, so to get the full story and find out how this affects you, don't miss the magazine.
 

Munchkins

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Scary Mare - V-Bandz were the original hi-viz company making kit for riders well before Equisafety started (though they will try and tell you otherwise - check the records at Companies House) and no - I don't work for them or have shares... it has nothing to do with PR and everyone has their own favourite - just want to be fair and see both sides to a story which could be turned into a really positive situation where all can benefit for the sake of safety.

What makes me laugh is the fact that people have bought this stuff because it "makes me look like the Police" and yet they don't want to follow a Police Directive. Double standards if you ask me.

Personally I feel the blue/silver chequered tape should be used for Emergency Services (Police) only - for the sake of clarity and public safety.
 

fburton

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Road safety is a HUGE passion of mine (I tutor advanced driving) and I am closely involved with the road safety partnership in my area and with that comes working with the police and fire service, talking to people at road safety events, testing their reaction times etc etc.
Good for you! I'd like advanced driving courses to be mandatory. If they are such a good idea, surely all drivers could benefit leading to safer roads for all.
 

Goldenstar

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Scary Mare - V-Bandz were the original hi-viz company making kit for riders well before Equisafety started (though they will try and tell you otherwise - check the records at Companies House) and no - I don't work for them or have shares... it has nothing to do with PR and everyone has their own favourite - just want to be fair and see both sides to a story which could be turned into a really positive situation where all can benefit for the sake of safety.

What makes me laugh is the fact that people have bought this stuff because it "makes me look like the Police" and yet they don't want to follow a Police Directive. Double standards if you ask me.

Personally I feel the blue/silver chequered tape should be used for Emergency Services (Police) only - for the sake of clarity and public safety.

Personally I would have bought one because I think the play on words Is hilarious .
I can't think what when each company started trading has to with any thing .
Personally I think the blue and white chequers on the exercise sheets break up the colour blocks a make them even more eye catching and what you personally feel is great for you but I cant see how having an exercise sheet with checkers on has any bearing at all on public safety or clarity.
 
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