Poll: Number of BE foundation points and moving up to an open section - discuss

[ihatework]

I definitely think BE need SOMETHING to move people across to open sections.

It is not about forcing them up the ladder, but across.

As the Novice cut off is 20 BE points (which is just over 3 wins), why not use the same ruling for Intros and PNs?

So 60-70 FP puts you out of normal PN sections and similar for Intro.

I say this as someone who had a horse who was running in Open PN despite never winning a BE point- he won 3 x PN but never made the step up to Novice.

I was happy with him running in Open sections as he held his own against horses with 100's of BE points and really do not see how people can defend horses with 100s of FP points still running in unrestricted sections.

I completely agree that something should be done. Either a FP limit or a set number of combination wins. We would obviously need to ensure there were sufficient Open sections to cater for those not wishing to step up a level for whatever reason.
I also think the grassrootes placings should be passed down the line, and possibly controversially, we should consider any combinations who go the the final being restricted from qualifying at that level again?

 

[millitiger]

I completely agree that something should be done. Either a FP limit or a set number of combination wins. We would obviously need to ensure there were sufficient Open sections to cater for those not wishing to step up a level for whatever reason.
I also think the grassrootes placings should be passed down the line, and possibly controversially, we should consider any combinations who go the the final being restricted from qualifying at that level again?

Yep, I agree that qualifications should pass down the line too.

Perhaps something like finishing in the top 10 at Badminton means not qualifying as a partnership for next 2 years or something?
Though, if points mean you are moved to open section, you couldn't qualify again in restricted section anyway (as I assume most horses in top 10 at Badminton will be over/near any limit for FP points if a reasonable limit was set).

 

[Horsemad12]

that's a really good idea. more Open sections definitely, and more control of which riders do which classes.
must admit i've never had a problem at all about competing against the big boys and girls, i think it's one of the very best things about our sport... and coming second in a Novice to Ginny Leng was more memorable (for me anyway) than winning one! i would really really hate to see any official segregation of abilities, Pro and Amateur splits (incredibly difficult to split fairly anyway... i mean, Heinrich Romeike is a bona fide amateur fgs!) so i think that should be steered away from...

I agree with this, it is part of the sport and IMHO a good part.

 

[VRIN]

It was inevitable (though perhaps an unintended consequence) when the GR championships that combinations would be 'discouraged' from moving up in the sport.

Whilst I acknowledge that many people want to stay within their comfort zone (but this could be provided for with 'open' sections) I am sure we all know someone who has decided not to have a go at novice as a non competitive double clear would make them ineligible for qualification at the lower levels!

For this discussion, it would be interesting to know how many 'new' combinations have qualified for the GR at Badminton this year and how many of the top three placings in each section at BE90 & BE100 at events are actually 'top 3 regulars'. Perhaps the reality is different to our gut feelings??

 

[SusieT]

'It's unfair to allow people to keep on winning time and time again' ... actually it's not! Only someone is consistantly not competitive would say that!.The attitude that you keep pushing the competitive people out of a class and into one where they are a lower standard is really quite ridiclous.. Then you just have a lower standard so when you do win. After all, if you can do a good dressage, jump double clear you're going to do fairly well. If you can't you aren't going to trouble the leaders so stop worrying about the fact that they are better than you.

 

[vic07]

Ha ha! Following that logic we don't need ON or OI either!

 

[SusieT]

Let's review: Dressage- you're either fairly good or no good, a decent test will score wells oif your horse goes well and performs the movements you should be in say the top ten? SJ-Should be able to jump clear. XC-should be able to jump clear. So if you horse is incapable of doing a good test I'm afraid it's not going to win. If it's incapable of jumping clear it defintiely doesn't deserve to win. So if a horse is capable of doing whatever level, it should if well trained in dressage and able to jump be capable of winning yes?

 

[be positive]

In all other affiliated spheres, including BE at novice and above, once you have won a certain amount whether its points, classes or money, you move on to the next level or into open classes, if you do not wish to move on then you can compete HC.

It is not as straightforward as saying that only those not competitive will complain, they are striving to improve, hopefully, but if those that are regularly winning never move on they will also be improving at that level, in most spheres once you reach a certain level there is no choice.

Most people at the grassroots level are taking part for fun, winning anything is usually a bonus.

 

[glamourpuss]

Firstly I do think the GR championships are a brilliant idea. The problem seems to be that they are such an awesome event that they have created this scenario of almost professional BE 90/ 100 riders.
When I first started eventing my ambition was to ride at a one star. I knew I probably wouldn't go further than that but I also knew I had to progress through the levels to get there. I do understand about not pushing people out of their comfort zone but there almost now seems to be, because they can ride at badminton no desire at all to even try & move up.
For me the whole GR thing has been spoiled by someone that I know. Her horse has over 100 FP. It has jumped around a couple of Novices but didn't get real points. It regularly competes unaff over BE novice level courses (& wins)
They are going to Badminton again this year, they also went last last year. They are doing the BE90.
9 years ago this rider was also competing at 1* & 2*. They have also done 1 3*
Now I appreciate that the new ruling means she won't be eligible for GR for a few years now....which is good.
But really how can people say that this is really a GR partenership? It's laughable. The rider has already said that as she can't do the GR again for a while she is going to take it straight back to Novice after Badminton this year! Where it is competing in the 90!
There should be more open sections. Horses over a certain number of FP should be made to go open. This would encourage those that are capable to think about moving up but still allow those only happy at 90/100 to stay at that level.
I also think it really is time BE started passing the qualification down the placings when ineligable partenerships are placed.

 

[dunkley]

So - Child A is fifteen, competing her 14.2 pony in a 2'3" class and winning pretty much every time out, against those just starting out and getting their confidence. This includes Child B, who is ten, on her 12.2, who is just starting out, and still learning. Is all the conversation at the ringside along the lines of "Well, Child B should improve and then she would beat Child A, wouldn't she?" ? Or is it more like "Bl**dy disgusting - just how much satisfaction can Child A get from trouncing Child B, she should be in the next class, or at least HC" ? If unaffiliated events can have a 'fair competition' policy, surely affiliated events can aspire to the same? As for the 'thrill' of competing against, and beating the pros - I'm afraid that doesn't wash with me. Pros are not competing at BE90, and those at BE100 are generally on inexperienced babies looking to move up as soon as possible. I think for those who have competed their teenage schoolmasters at BE90 and 100 for two/three seasons with routine top ten (top five!) placings, the reasons are probably far more self-centred and fiscal than the buzz of beating a Pro. I am another who wouldn't want to push any rider out of their 'comfort zone', but slide across and do the same class at open level. After all, if you are doing it for fun and to improve your own personal scores, you still can, can't you? Also, if you have already achieved RFs and Grassroots Champs, perhaps you need another challenge?

 

[Horsemad12]

Personally for me GR is not on my radar - not that I would not love the opportunity to go, but because it is unrealistic for me at the current moment in time.

I am competing at BE100 on a 6 year old. She does not perform a dressage test that will compete with a well schooled 10yr old, I accept that. She can and has jumped double clear. I will not (currently) qualify for the GR.

Given the opportunity I want to progress to the best of our ability (Who knows what that will be), but if I feel we are ready to have a go a a N then I will.

I suspect it is more likely that will happen long before I am getting a dressage score in the low 20's!!!! (if either ever happens - lol)

I agree that it is disheartening to compete against the BE100 professionals, I think that a cut off and open sections should be introduced, and also think that the GR qualifications should be looked at.

Many years ago Oasby ran an amatur class at both PN and N for a couple of years, it was a Midlands final and you had to get a top 10 to qualify. I think something like that in each region would be good. It was done over 2 days with the SJ as the final phase in reverse order.

More things like that for the average rider to aim for would be idea???

 

[glamourpuss]

The more im thinking about this I'm also struggling with this concept of 'wanting to stay in their comfort zone' surely if your horse is performing a dressage test in the 20's & regularly jumping double clears then surely both of you should be more than capable of having a bash at the next level up?
Honestly, I think the lure of Badminton is what stops most people from moving up to Novice.

 

[photo_jo]

I think this has got to where open and rest have ended up with dressage. The obvious solution is to move Grassroot qualification down as far as say 3rd if the top two are pros (or ineligible riders). Certainly people are 'protecting' their own and their horse's grading as they do in dressage. I know of a few pros who don't move horses up to novice if they are not going to cope with intermediate-they are worth more with no points. That said if you want to try a novice you can always enter an open novice and then you won't get points!
Re restricting points I think that is tricky-it will turn into successful and unsuccessful. I am no pro but my horse did his first event last year as a six-year-old and I bought him as a 4 yr old and did not pay silly money.
He did 3 90's and finished 3rd, 2nd and 1st. He then did four 100's and finished 2nd, 2nd, 1st and 1st (and the seconds were only seconds because of me!). It makes no difference to me as he has just done his first novice and hopefully will go on (prob not with me as I am chicken now) but if he had had a first time event rider he would have been just as good but they would have shifted to open for being too successful before they had even done barely half a season.

 

[Lolo]

The more im thinking about this I'm also struggling with this concept of 'wanting to stay in their comfort zone' surely if your horse is performing a dressage test in the 20's & regularly jumping double clears then surely both of you should be more than capable of having a bash at the next level up?
Honestly, I think the lure of Badminton is what stops most people from moving up to Novice.

I can see why they don't though. I know of several very smart little horses/ ponies who really enjoy their BE100 and do very well (and would have to compete in open sections under the rules discussed here) who would be completely overfaced by a Novice. One tried it as they were winning so regularly at BE100 and her pony downed tools in the SJ as it was just too big- this was a nice 15.2hh, not a cobby pony either.

 

[ihatework]

The more im thinking about this I'm also struggling with this concept of 'wanting to stay in their comfort zone' surely if your horse is performing a dressage test in the 20's & regularly jumping double clears then surely both of you should be more than capable of having a bash at the next level up?
Honestly, I think the lure of Badminton is what stops most people from moving up to Novice.

Being pushed out of your comfort zone in pure dressage or sj might be a bit embarrassing if it goes wrong. In eventing it could end up a more sinister affair.

For that reason, and also because I come from the perspective of being a bit wimpy, I am no way in favour of forcing people out of their comfort zone eventing.

I am in favour of pushing people into opens who are hitting a FP limit. This is was happens in all other affiliated competition and I can't see how anyone could complain really. I don't see how it will dumb down competition, there will always be talented new combinations coming through to take their place.

Who knows, one day I might be in that position? I have a lovely young horse who can do a nice test. At his first event this weekend he would have won on a 29.5 dressage had he not had a pole sj. In reality I am never going to go Novice - I would be a complete liability. But it is perfectly feasible that at some point I could have sufficient FP's to make me ineligible for BE90 say - and although, in theory, I may have a little grumble and a whinge about doing Opens, in reality it's perfectly fair!

 

[birchave0]

I don't event but after checking the top twenty horses on BE's website (foundation points) I can't understand that when some horses who have won at BE100 6 - 7 times are still competing in the none open sections???

As everyone else has pointed out in BS and BD once you reach a certain point where the horse has won at a certain level you either move up or across.

I think Glamourpuss hit the nail on the head, GR Badminton seems to be everyone's goal.

It must be so soul destroying to get to an event and see those "certain" combinations in your section......

 

[SpottedCat]

Maybe I am lucky, but although 90opens are thin on the ground, I can run as often as I like at 100open level!

I think the whole system is a bit skewed at the moment - I'm on a horse someone else got 4 proper points on, and yet that makes me ineligible for grassroots champs, but I rarely get placed and am more likely to fly to the moon than ever qualify for the novice champs. Equally, we have some FP so would probably be shoved into opens anyway.

I think what I'd like to see is:

1. Horses still in Novice points gained with someone else are eligible for the 100 grassroots champs - that way you don't have the issue when buying a horse that you might want to do N on one day of not knowing if it's capable because it hasn't been taken N to preserve it for the amateur market. So this is a combination issue - horse and rider together not to have any points, but horse can have up to 20 (or whatever the N limit is). Horses with points not eligible for 90 grassroots champs.

2. Qualifications to pass down the line if ineligible combinations take the RF qualifying spots. I have no idea why BE don't do this considering the combination still have to actually qualify at the RF to get to grassroots!

3. Open sections to be allowed to qualify for RF if eligible.

4. Having a FP 'limit' whereby you then have to go into the open section. Not sure where you'd set it, but even in cases like PhotoJo, going open wouldn't necessarily mean you were less competitive (I have managed to finish above Ensign in an open section for example ).

 

[photo_jo]

1. Horses still in Novice points gained with someone else are eligible for the 100 grassroots champs - that way you don't have the issue when buying a horse that you might want to do N on one day of not knowing if it's capable because it hasn't been taken N to preserve it for the amateur market. So this is a combination issue - horse and rider together not to have any points, but horse can have up to 20 (or whatever the N limit is). Horses with points not eligible for 90 grassroots champs.

2. Qualifications to pass down the line if ineligible combinations take the RF qualifying spots. I have no idea why BE don't do this considering the combination still have to actually qualify at the RF to get to grassroots!

3. Open sections to be allowed to qualify for RF if eligible.

4. Having a FP 'limit' whereby you then have to go into the open section. Not sure where you'd set it, but even in cases like PhotoJo, going open wouldn't necessarily mean you were less competitive (I have managed to finish above Ensign in an open section for example ).

SP that seems a really good workable and reasonable solution. Like I said makes no difference to me, I wouldn't mind at all what section I was in, I was making that point that someone who had bought my boy would have gone straight out and been competitive regardless of their experience (as long as they had strong arms for jumping!).
I feel slightly guilty as my horse's placing after June last year will have stopped a few people getting GR qual as I did ride in an intermediate back in 2003.

 

[SpottedCat]

SP that seems a really good workable and reasonable solution. Like I said makes no difference to me, I wouldn't mind at all what section I was in, I was making that point that someone who had bought my boy would have gone straight out and been competitive regardless of their experience (as long as they had strong arms for jumping!).
I feel slightly guilty as my horse's placing after June last year will have stopped a few people getting GR qual as I did ride in an intermediate back in 2003.

I think though, that they'd still have been competitive in open sections is what I'm trying to say - even if they lacked the experience to move up to Novice. I don't think they'd have found themselves penalised by being in an open section - and if they were, then they would have been able to use that experience to know what they needed to work on before moving up.

 

[photo_jo]

I don't think they'd have found themselves penalised by being in an open section - and if they were, then they would have been able to use that experience to know what they needed to work on before moving up.

I totally agree- I suppose I was meaning they might find it a bit intimidating going open against the big boys J

 

[SpottedCat]

I totally agree- I suppose I was meaning they might find it a bit intimidating going open against the big boys J

True I suppose - but at 100 anyway you are up against the pros even in normal sections, so it doesn't take long before you are in that position.

I remember when I started eventing there was one season when Chris King had this PN youngster which was posting dressage scores in the teens and jumping DC - somehow for 4 events in a row it was in my section and my heart used to sink when I saw the section lists. But looking back, I just wasn't good enough to be competitive and needed to up my game - shame that now I can post decent dressage I can't keep the poles up isn't it?!

 

[photo_jo]

True I suppose - but at 100 anyway you are up against the pros even in normal sections, so it doesn't take long before you are in that position.

Sorry, by big boys I meant the more successful horses ie the ones that have gone novice and have points.

Have you tried supergluing the poles on when you walk the course?

 

[SpottedCat]

Sorry, by big boys I meant the more successful horses ie the ones that have gone novice and have points.

Have you tried supergluing the poles on when you walk the course?

Ah yes, see what you mean!

I am wondering if anyone would notice if I were to perhaps wedge the wings in a bit tighter next time I walk the course?! To be fair he always jumps better on a surface than on grass, so what I actually need to do is have some SJ lessons on grass....

 

[photo_jo]

Ah yes, see what you mean!

I am wondering if anyone would notice if I were to perhaps wedge the wings in a bit tighter next time I walk the course?! To be fair he always jumps better on a surface than on grass, so what I actually need to do is have some SJ lessons on grass....

The other option is to have a handy friend or two round the arena before you go in. Make sure you follow someone who is going to flatten the course hurricane fashion and then send in said friends to help with the rebuild with wing wedging as the main aim?

 

[Dotilas]

In Showing, riders wear armbands if they are eligible to qualify. This could be taken on to help with the question of who to qualify and who to not. Or maybe a tick box on an entry sheet.
They also run "Novice" classes and "Open" classes. What about if it wasn't about disqualifying people from entering, but that you had to be eligible to enter them? i.e. to enter a BE90 you have to have less than 50FP otherwise you must enter the open, or to enter the BE100 you have to have less than 80FP or you must enter the open.

I say this, because by removing the good partnerships from the BGR qualifiers, you are allowing worse, possibly less deserving, combinations through. I would organise it as that to be able to qualify for the BGR champs, you would be in the open section and wearing an armband. This way, you are not affected by the pro's placings, but you are proving your worth against them. There would then be '10% of number of entrants' number of qualifications, going down to a limit of 40% of the number of entrants in the section, if there were lots of people without qualifying bands on. I.e. if there were 30 in section, and 4 qualifying places, and the top 8 had already qualified/were not eligible, the 9-12 places could get qualifying places, but if 9 had qualified, the 13th would not. Does that make sense?
In this way, people are encouraged to move up to the open sections to try their hand, and the normal sections there is a lower standard of competition?

Also is there a rule to say a combination may only compete in the champs at 90 once, and then at 100 once, and must do them in that order? That might lead to progression, as after a theoretical two perfect seasons, they can't qualify for GR and hence won't be "pot hunting" any more other than for the placing?

I can see a few flaws even in this though...

 

[Horsemad12]

Well if nothing else we all seem to agree on reform!