Poll the highest point?

[Orangehorse]

Um - tip toe up to this, but for "correct" dressage isn't the poll supposed to be the highest point? Glancing through H & H recently there was hardly a horse that wasn't overbent. I know a photo is only a momentary glimpse, but what does everyone else think?

 

[Sol]

To be honest, the whole 'photographs are just a momentary glimpse' thing must be becoming untrue with the cameras the pro photographers must have these days - if they can shoot numbers of photographs of a horse in the ring, then why choose one where its BTV? For a large proportion of images? Makes no sense unless that's all the horse only works BTV.
However, saying that, I haven't seen the photos you are on about or know the exact numbers. Nor am I a photographer

 

[Horses24-7]

Are they btv or stretching long and low? Not seen the pics, will have a look

 

[air78]

I think this every week

 

[sbloom]

I think this every week

Ditto. The poll should be the highest point when working correctly and not stretching and this applies to young and novice horses as well. With the good training I have watched there is no reason for a young horse to go consistently poll low - moments yes, but a younger or novice horse goes in a longer outline with the poll relatively lower compared to a more advanced horse, but the poll should still always be higher than any other point of the neck.

Dressage is no longer truly judged to FEI guidelines IMO - we place athleticism and accuracy much higher than a correct way of going.

 

[angelish]

Haveing just hunted my copy of h&h out to have a look because I'm not observant enought to have noticed the first time I looked to me there is only a couple who are very slightly BTV

Can someone explain to me how can a horse remain "on the bit" and the poll be the highest point ?

From a numpty point of view for the poll to be the highest point the Horse would surely have to be quite a way in frount of the vertical , that's assuming the poll is where the head band of the bridle would sit ?

It seems to me (as a self confessed confused numpty) putting the poll as the highest point and expecting the horse to stay either on TV or slightly in front of it would be very difficult for the horse to macanicaly do ?

I'm confused at how both can be achived any one care to explain ?
I'm not disputing anything just willing to learn

 

[*hic*]

Ignore me, talking rubbish

 

[xxRachelxx]

Can someone explain to me how can a horse remain "on the bit" and the poll be the highest point ?

From a numpty point of view for the poll to be the highest point the Horse would surely have to be quite a way in frount of the vertical , that's assuming the poll is where the head band of the bridle would sit ?

It seems to me (as a self confessed confused numpty) putting the poll as the highest point and expecting the horse to stay either on TV or slightly in front of it would be very difficult for the horse to macanicaly do ?

I could be totally wrong in saying this but I think you have to imagine the horse as just a skeleton and then the poll should be the highest point.
Obviously some horses (especailly stallions) have very cresty necks so they will never look as though poll is highest point when actually it is!
Hope that makes sense

 

[be positive]

I also had a look and saw most horses were imo working correctly one or two a little deep but it is a moment in time so not always a true picture of the whole test or of how others were going.

Several of the horses have cresty necks which are slightly above the poll, this is more of a conformation issue rather than incorrect work, not a defect in conf as such.

As the horse advances it should carry more weight on its hind legs and thus it enables the front end to lift and its poll to become the highest point, if the neck is particularly strong, as sometimes seen in Iberian horses it may never be able to achieve this consistently.

It is certainly easier in some horses than others and only part of the requirements and straightness, rhythm,relaxation etc have to also be maintained,you are working on the whole not just part of the horse is how I see it.

 

[sbloom]

It does seem a bit "emperors new clothes" - did you know that in front of the vertical is technically coirrect for all but piaffe? And the rules were only changed maybe 10 years ago to allow horses to come TO the vertical in piaffe?! We seem to adapt the rules to how people want to train. It is perfectly possible to have the poll (where the vertbra is right at the top of the neck unlike lower down) as the highest point at all levels of training - only the very cresty necks should make a difference, and you should still be able to see that the vertebral alignment is correct.

Erik Herbermann on a home trained advanced horse:

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT2OwXIzj7RxeZenkf1jbw7ARC_U0Cxsm8VsaeWjurg9b9EiLrk

SRS:

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT4_xjYUPxwXFwP3ILqEr9_qybEXDUZYgpZhLdKS3iqZ8hxJ40phA

It is much harder to find good pics of lower level horses...

 

[tristar]

i believe you are right, its the first thing i look at!

too many horses are rushed through their training, they should be left to work where they feel most comfortable, thereby not creating tensions, the mouth should be left alone, very light contact, when the horse is ready it will take up the correct position and feel truly on the bit with ALL the energy flowing forwards it will happen without force, and is a truly wonderful feeling and its got nothing to do with pulling at the front end.

take no notice of judges and people who say the horse should beng doing this and that at this and that age or stage,, your horse is a unique individual and its your job to find the pathway within your horses mentality and physical capabilities.

just because its a photo in horse and hound does'nt make right, if you rode some of those horses you would understand why.

 

[sbloom]

I'm not into everything on this site, but this section talks a little about biomechanics of outline and collection:

http://www.sustainabledressage.net/rollkur/work_stretch.php#levers

 

[Prince33Sp4rkle]

"too many horses are rushed through their training, they should be left to work where they feel most comfortable, thereby not creating tensions, the mouth should be left alone, very light contact, when the horse is ready it will take up the correct position and feel truly on the bit with ALL the energy flowing forwards it will happen without force, and is a truly wonderful feeling and its got nothing to do with pulling at the front end"

Disagree....if the horse is most comfortable inverted and crooked due to years of muscle memory or maybe an injury, you can leave it to make its own choice until the cows come home and its never going to be ready to suddenly come soft, connected and straight!!!!! a very light contact is the end goal, and is often not possible to have with a younger horse at certain stages of training so it is incorrect to try and place that above all other work/parts of the training scales.

schooling is very fluid,no hard and fast rules, and sometimes you have to push, make a little tension, to work through something the horse does not really want to do-to be a little straight, or more stretched etc.

 

[millitiger]

Haveing just hunted my copy of h&h out to have a look because I'm not observant enought to have noticed the first time I looked to me there is only a couple who are very slightly BTV

Can someone explain to me how can a horse remain "on the bit" and the poll be the highest point ?

From a numpty point of view for the poll to be the highest point the Horse would surely have to be quite a way in frount of the vertical , that's assuming the poll is where the head band of the bridle would sit ?

It seems to me (as a self confessed confused numpty) putting the poll as the highest point and expecting the horse to stay either on TV or slightly in front of it would be very difficult for the horse to macanicaly do ?

I'm confused at how both can be achived any one care to explain ?
I'm not disputing anything just willing to learn

I think it may come from seeing lots of horses working in what people think are nice outlines and which imho, are actually far too round and deep but some people think it is a normal way to ride a horse and can make the horse feel like it is going well as the head is down and you tend to have quite a light contact.
I think it has improved again over the last 2 or 3 years and more horses are being seen out and about and in H&H in what I would term a 'correct' outline with the poll up and the nose out.
The fashion seems to switch every few years from 'nose in and much rounder' to 'poll up and nose out'- I prefer the latter and always try to have my horses like that in a competition outline and really only work with the poll lower when specifically stretching the horse.

It can be hard to see a horse as poll high if it is very cresty or has a very developed topline, but as another poster say, it is the skeletal structure you are meant to be 'seeing' if that makes sense?

I will stick my head above the paraphet and show a couple of photos of me and Millie- not professing to be perfect but I think they show you can have the poll as the highest point, nose in front of the vertical and the horse still 'on the bit.'

http://www.philjphotography.com/kings/dressage/31st.July/class 4 110731/slides/Classs 4 -4435.html

http://www.philjphotography.com/kings/dressage/31st.July/class 4 110731/slides/Classs 4 -4437.html

 

[Saratoga]

A lot of dressage horses have a lot of neck muscle, I think sometimes this can lead to it looking like the poll isn't the highest point, but mechanically it is.

This is my boy and me earlier this year http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh219/vpowley/Regionals2.jpg. He is in front of the vertical, and not broken in the neck, but you could say his poll isn't the highest point??

Posted at the same time as millitiger, and agree regarding a 'cresty' horse

 

[angelish]

Thank you all so much
That's explained a lot to me I have often wondered and felt a little silly asking

Can't look at pics as on phone & meant to be working , will have a look later thanks again

 

[JFTDWS]

A lot of dressage horses have a lot of neck muscle, I think sometimes this can lead to it looking like the poll isn't the highest point, but mechanically it is.

This is my boy and me earlier this year http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh219/vpowley/Regionals2.jpg. He is in front of the vertical, and not broken in the neck, but you could say his poll isn't the highest point??

But you can see the poll is the highest point of his neck there? There's a world of difference between crest and muscle above the level of the poll, and the horses I see who are ridden and competed with their polls right down so that the appearance is on or behind the vertical and broken necked. In my opinion, the former is acceptable, the latter most definitely isn't.

However, I only see the the lowest end of competitive dressage, so it's skewed away from serious dr people. But I regularly see such horses win against much more correctly working animals.

 

[FrodoBeutlin]

Yes of course it is possible even with lower level horses!

 

[JFTDWS]

Yes of course it is possible even with lower level horses!

are you calling that a low level horse? If so I'm fleeing CR and never darkening your doorstep again

 

[FrodoBeutlin]

Low level meaning not Advanced / Grand Prix! That was a medium class!

 

[Circe]

A lot of dressage horses have a lot of neck muscle, I think sometimes this can lead to it looking like the poll isn't the highest point, but mechanically it is.

This is my boy and me earlier this year http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh219/vpowley/Regionals2.jpg. He is in front of the vertical, and not broken in the neck, but you could say his poll isn't the highest point??

Posted at the same time as millitiger, and agree regarding a 'cresty' horse

I might be thick, but looking at your photo, he does look like the poll is the highest point, and to me, looks correct.
I would love my boy to carry himself like that
Kx

 

[JFTDWS]

Low level meaning not Advanced / Grand Prix! That was a medium class!

Right, I'm off back to NL I regard anything above elementary as high level and unattainable

 

[angelish]

having just gushed about winning a walk and trot test I think I'll retire to Saopbox

Very interesting though

 

[FrodoBeutlin]

Well, whether *we* consider Elementary or Medium or Advanced Medium ambitious or not, and fantastic achievements for *our own* horses to be rightly proud of, is irrelevant, in the bigger scheme of things, internationally, they are low levels

 

[Indi41]

For the poll to be the highest point is the AIM of the training - you work towards it building up enough strength, balance and carriage.

Therefore its obvious that, especially, in the younger horse there will be times when this cannot be achieved consistently.

Many photos in H&H are taken during the warm-up or even after the test - so the poll may well have been highest point during the actual test ... which is the only time its "required" to try and attain that position.

 

[rotters13]

But looking at those two photos it does appear that the poll isnt the absolute highest point but the horse is still clearly working correctly!!! (I get so incredibly confused by this....)

 

[AFlapjack]

I've always thought this too but been told the poll should be level with the withers?

In this photo I think he looks almost poll high? He is slightly poking his nose though....

However, in his pic to me it looks like his neck is slightly higher than his poll but he is on the vertical although there is some resistance in his mouth.

Obviously we are not an amazing dressage combination (competing prelim but working novice and some elementary level at home) but it's interesting to compare

 

[Tempi]

I'd be interested to know who said the poll should be level with the withers???

 

[dressagelove]

I've always thought this too but been told the poll should be level with the withers?

Eh??

 

[AFlapjack]

I'd be interested to know who said the poll should be level with the withers???

Eh??

Exactly I don't understand it

Various instructors/riders have told me about it (no famous names as it were!) but when I question it they just say poll should be the highest point for advanced dressage horses only...