Poll the highest point?

If the poll was level with the withers then the horses nose would be practically scraping on the floor.... I hope you don't still have lessons with whoever told you that!
 
That is odd. The only reference I've ever seen to something like that is in Quarter Horses, where they have a rule the poll shouldn't be consistently lower than the withers, if you can believe that!
 
Well I believe I read an article where Steph Croxford explained that warming up you're looking for the feeling that your horse's neck is like a 'shelf' from the withers to the poll. Obviously she explained it a bit better and clearly but is that applicable just to warming up??
 
Well, I'm pleased to say my horse's head was slightly in front of the vertical in his pic in H&H week before last - but his poll will never be the highest point for a very good reason! What with a broken neck and all...
 
The position of the head with relation to the vertical is more important here. From my understanding the reason why the poll should be the highest point so that the horse is completely stretching and pushing from back to front. Having the nose slightly in front of the vertical should achieve this. Poll becomes highest point when you ask for the advanced outline with high head and neck carriage due to more weight being carried behind. Obviously the poll would not be the highest point if you're not working in the more advance outline.
 
Article 417 on collection of the FEI dressage rules states:

"The position of the head and neck of a Horse at the collected paces is naturally dependent on the stage of training and, to some degree, on its conformation. It is distinguished by the neck being raised without restraint, forming a harmonious curve from the withers to the poll, which is the highest point, with the nose slightly in front of the vertical. At the moment the Athlete applies his aids to obtain a momentary and passing collecting effect, the head may become more or less vertical. The arch of the neck is directly related to the degree of collection."

This is always what I've always been told - that on the vertical is pretty much too 'closed' and that on the bit has nothing to do with the vertical line.

There's a good photo of a novice horse ridden by Kottas, I think, in Podhajsky's The Complete Training of Horse and Rider, which I unfortunately can't find to post here, but the nose is a long way in front of what is considered the vertical.

I have also seen an article to the effect that the true vertical of a horse's head is actually in front of where we actually think it is and if the cheekpieces of the bridle are plumb, then the horse's head is actually behind the true vertical - but I can't for the life of me think where I saw that :confused: !

I am far from an expert, the above is just some food for thought from what I've been told/read.
 
But poll at the highest point can't be at the expense of stretching over the neck and back and working softly. Looking back at some pictures of little Ozz, he's working poll high here
249173_216036781753952_100000428941076_777664_1063263_n.jpg

But also slightly short and tight in his neck

Here he's working much better IMO
MVI_1122_00012.jpg

But could you say he's strictly poll high?

The most recent picture I have of him shows a much better picture as far as I can see, he's poll high (I think) and looking much softer generally.
MVI_1212_0001.jpg


Would be interested to hear what people think of the first two, compared to each other. Pull them apart, I'm really interested in the subject and nye-on impossible to offend ;)

Ozz is 4 btw :)

J&C
 
Oh, and excuse the rider, I'm undergoing a total position overhaul at the moment. Things have got worse before they started to get better :rolleyes: I'm getting there though, promise ;)

J&C
 
4yo PRE working Prelim/Novice level -

Nose slightly in front of the vertical
2-2.jpg


Nose on the vertical -
2-1.jpg


I personally would preffer him a little rounder in the first photo, which would bring him on the vertical.
 
JGC the pics are between pages 48-49 in 'the complete training of the horse,' podhajsky former director of the spanish riding school in vienna, and show a young horse in walk trot and canter, the neck is stretched the head is well in front of the vertical, the horse is ridden in a very natural frame, in fact some trainers ride the young horse without a bit! not quite that brave myself! to avoid the dangers of spoiling the sensitive mouth of the young horse.

when does a horse verging on the vertical/ behind the vertical become behind the bit is what concerns me, i have no problem accepting that the poll should be the highest point when the horse is ready to take up that posture.
 
I'm really glad someone posted the FEI rules. I do hope no-one dismisses them as "just for competition" either - they are the rules of training - dressage MEANS to train. I think when in doubt we should always return to the rules - there is a wonderful poster on Ultimate Dressage BB (galopp) who occasionally pastes a section of the rules onto the Training forum and encourages discussion about how to work towards them.
 
tristar said:
JGC the pics are between pages 48-49 in 'the complete training of the horse,' podhajsky former director of the spanish riding school in vienna, and show a young horse in walk trot and canter, the neck is stretched the head is well in front of the vertical, the horse is ridden in a very natural frame, in fact some trainers ride the young horse without a bit! not quite that brave myself! to avoid the dangers of spoiling the sensitive mouth of the young horse.

when does a horse verging on the vertical/ behind the vertical become behind the bit is what concerns me, i have no problem accepting that the poll should be the highest point when the horse is ready to take up that posture.
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My thinking is that once the horse is contracting the muscle on the underside of the neck then you are inhibiting the shoulder, that is when you have a problem. (but I could be completely wrong)

We have forgotten the importance of strengthening the whole neck in our obsession with having the horse on the bit from the get go IMO. We should be aiming to have as much horse in front of the saddle as possible, instead constantly we see horses with short contracted necks winning dressage classes.

To the OP, I am also amazed an how many horses in the media are behind the vertical. I am even more suprised by how many horses in for sale adverts are wildly overbent.
 
tristar said:
JGC the pics are between pages 48-49 in 'the complete training of the horse,' podhajsky former director of the spanish riding school in vienna, and show a young horse in walk trot and canter, the neck is stretched the head is well in front of the vertical, the horse is ridden in a very natural frame, in fact some trainers ride the young horse without a bit! not quite that brave myself! to avoid the dangers of spoiling the sensitive mouth of the young horse.

when does a horse verging on the vertical/ behind the vertical become behind the bit is what concerns me, i have no problem accepting that the poll should be the highest point when the horse is ready to take up that posture.
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siennamum said:
My thinking is that once the horse is contracting the muscle on the underside of the neck then you are inhibiting the shoulder, that is when you have a problem. (but I could be completely wrong)

We have forgotten the importance of strengthening the whole neck in our obsession with having the horse on the bit from the get go IMO. We should be aiming to have as much horse in front of the saddle as possible, instead constantly we see horses with short contracted necks winning dressage classes.

To the OP, I am also amazed an how many horses in the media are behind the vertical. I am even more suprised by how many horses in for sale adverts are wildly overbent.
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Thanks, Tristar, that's what I was thinking of, but I've lent the book out!

This is a really interesting discussion and very timely for me as I have a youngster who is quite happy to put her neck and head into a fashionable but BTV position and by doing that prevents me from getting her hindlegs working properly, as something about that angle means blocks her shoulder, back and hindlegs. She's a smart cookie. To get her working properly, I need to bring her head up and her nose out (she hates that, because she knows that it's harder work like that!).

I haven't quite figured out all the biomechanics of it, but it's a fascinating subject!
 
I've been following this post with interest but I've only just got around to replying - why does work always get in the way of fun things?!

My boy has had a tendency to drop BTV, which improved greatly. I always thought that pics like this aren't quite correct, but would you say that the poll is the highest point but it doesn't look that way due to his cresty neck?

P12trot.jpg


As for ears level with the withers, I suppose this would be an example but this is in a stretchy canter, not what I would call a 'normal' outline (even at Prelim level!):

Pocholocanter11Jun10.jpg
 
Anyone? I'm genuinely interested in thoughts / cc as it also relates to a training debate I have with someone here in HK!
 
Each horse is different though, and what you have to do to train it to go correctly therefore is not the same. Completely agree with PS that inevitably this sometimes leads to asking the horse to do something it may not like, eg bending on the side it does not like to bend on, but unless you work on those things, it will not improve.

My baby horse is naturally very uphill , and her favourite evasions all involve sticking her head up, now her poll is at the highest point in these moments but she is not correct at all (especially in the ones where she tw*ts me in the face with her neck !!) She came to me having been started very correctly but having not done much, and we have been working on getting her more connected and straighter and more active. In doing this I find that I do have to spend a reasonable amount of each session working her quite round, and her poll is sometimes a little low, but I do have control and I do have the connection and the activity. I am now getting to the point where after 20 minutes or so I can get more leg on and her head up a little so the poll is where it "ought" to be, whilst keeping a contact and the connection. But I cannot get this from the get go at all. I do not expect this to be a permanent state of affairs though !

But, to go back to some of the earlier debate, I think that one reason you do see BTV horses doing ok is that possibly its better to have a horse who is using its hindquarters and back and is a little poll low than to have a more correct head but with the quarters trailing and no engagement. I am talking about horses that are younger or less advanced here, and not the higher levels. I think that is probably my view, and consistent with that I would be more bothered by an advanced horse that kept overbending than a younger one. Views?

ps jiffy would give you a reply but cant see the pics for some reason!
 
Well I was the OP and it has been a very interesting discussion. Thank you.

I don't think that my knowledge or experience is sufficient to give proper reply. Only to say that I will not be working my horse behind the vertical as it has the effect of making (or allowing) him to go on the forehand or drop behind the bit.
 
imr said:
But, to go back to some of the earlier debate, I think that one reason you do see BTV horses doing ok is that possibly its better to have a horse who is using its hindquarters and back and is a little poll low than to have a more correct head but with the quarters trailing and no engagement. I am talking about horses that are younger or less advanced here, and not the higher levels. I think that is probably my view, and consistent with that I would be more bothered by an advanced horse that kept overbending than a younger one. Views?
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I think the old masters would disagree - that hind legs trailing and back down is a fault that we all try and train away from, but that riding too deep has its own consequences for the back end (no equal triangles to the trot, lumbar spin artifically forced up etc) and yet we use this as a deliberate way to train. The old masters would have used lateral work, transitions etc to improve the hind leg and the way of going, and worked on keeping the poll high, correcting the horse whenever it went poll low NOT allowing it as a way of going.

From what I have read/heard BTV was seen as a much bigger sin than pretty much any other, but judging seems to have changed that in the last 30 years.
 
I don't think anyone is under the impression having the poll as the highest point, without a break between the atlas and the axis, is the ONLY sign a horse is working correctly. ;) But if it's not the case then I'd say pretty much everyone agrees the horse is NOT working correctly. :)

The thing is, it's all about goal and long term effects, about how the way the horse is worked impacts on the horse. But tests are a moment in time and SOMEONE has to win, which means faults often get "ranked" - a good moving athlete given an accurate ride will rack up more points, even if the poll is low, than a poorly ridden, bad mover. Such is life. It doesn't mean anything for an individual's specific training program.

The other problem is it's also a "feel" issue. It's quite possible to look a little bit "not right" and be so so close, but it's also possible to look "almost right" and be miles and miles away, doing real damage. Very, very good, experienced judges can probably discern the difference and maybe even have the opportunity to reflect it in the marks (relative to the rest of the performance) but let's face it, who among us is getting judged by people like that on a regular basis.

Big picture, long term, understanding effects, riding different horses and having other people ride yours (can someone else make your horse go better? can you make someone else's horse go better?) is what really shows what's going on.
 
Good point Tarr Steps.

I was writing at a dressage competitionn with a very well known judge and at lunch she was discussing the competitors (!) with another well known judge. (It was several years ago, but you would recognise the names). She had placed one rider way down as she said (to me during the test) that he was trained with draw reins and he had a break in his neck. However, the other judge didn't agree and had placed the horse high up. What was the rider to think about this result!
 
I had it brought home to me in spades years ago with a young horse at a multi-day/ring show, so judged by different judges (and with basically the same competitors) over the course of three days. (Often how big shows work in Canada.) One was an FEI judge who filled in for a National level ring by chance - he gave the class very different feedback than the National judges had, putting much more store in "moments of brilliance" and the horse up and out, rather than on a calm, orderly but uninspiring test with the horse a bit "over ridden". He was also free with comments at the end about what was good and bad and how to progress with an eye to developing the horses at higher levels. Bizarrely, I've found upper level judges generally much more excited and enthusiastic about lower level tests/horses - maybe because they don't have to see a hundred of them every weekend! :)
 
one of the troubles is if you judge everything by what goes on in dressage competitions, they are not the be all and end all and last word in training and equitation, in my mind.
as s.bloom says the old masters had a different approach.

i don't expect a young horse, or a horse in rehab or retraining to be poll high, but for me it is the end result of correct training on a light contact, and it is only in poll high posture that the horse can physiologically be truly collected, i always feel that a horse btv or bent in the neck is like riding something else, as if the dynamics are incorrect, whereas the the poll high allows the full energy through, its like equtational paradise.
 
I have this from a few years ago now when there was a discussion about lower level horses being up or downhill and whether a novice horse could be uphill.

This is a photo i took at a local unaffil test. I blurred the horse and rider as even though putting them out as being a good example they still don't know I putting their photo online :p Anyway poll highest point (ignoring muscle) working through back (whole test was rather lovely from what I remember) and uphill all from a young novice horse!

uphill.jpg



Then this is working at home on Fleur and although she is marginally infront of the vertical in terms of overall picture she is poll high working over her back and working forward from behind

IMG_6619.jpg


I do think a lot of horses are worked far too deep and I do cringe at the H&H photos. this week its about 50/50 with some real lovely examples (Ottono especially due to its hind leg and Privaldi stand out) which is a better week IMHO ;)
 
tristar said:
as s.bloom says the old masters had a different approach.
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Just for the purposes of the discussion, it depends a bit on what old masters we're talking about. ;). There are certainly schools of thought that have not placed the same emphasis on it, for instance with some of the practitioners of the old French Light school. And, has been raised on previous posts, a horse btv, consistently low or broken at the atlas/axis will be heavily penalised in Germany, which is interesting considering what we currently call competitive dressage is essentially the German Competitive School so technically it's not okay in the ring either, it's just that, to be bunt, most countries do not have enough competitors doing enough things really well so that horses working btv don't get placed.

Sorry, I'm being a bit pedantic but I think there is a bit of a danger in saying things were so great in the good old days. There was some pretty god awful riding and horses winning with less than stellar performances. You don't have to read too much or look at too many photos to see how limited many of the horses were.
 
xxRachelxx said:
Can someone explain to me how can a horse remain "on the bit" and the poll be the highest point ?

From a numpty point of view for the poll to be the highest point the Horse would surely have to be quite a way in frount of the vertical , that's assuming the poll is where the head band of the bridle would sit ?

It seems to me (as a self confessed confused numpty) putting the poll as the highest point and expecting the horse to stay either on TV or slightly in front of it would be very difficult for the horse to macanicaly do ?

I could be totally wrong in saying this but I think you have to imagine the horse as just a skeleton and then the poll should be the highest point.
Obviously some horses (especailly stallions) have very cresty necks so they will never look as though poll is highest point when actually it is!
Hope that makes sense :D
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If the horse is working correctly the ears should stretch over the muzzle - not the nose come in. This means that the neck stretches and the horse relaxes at the poll. 100% correct the horses face should be just infront of the verticle.

A lot of horses flex too far back at the third cervical which is what happens when the horse gets behind the bit. The horse doing this is not going truly correctly.

Correctly on the bit - poll the highest point
klaus-balkenhol.jpg


Coming behind the bit/overbent - horse has flexed at the third cervical vertebrae
lan1w.jpg
 
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most young horses i have ridden have been above the bit, i prefer that to the ones who are ploughing down, above the bit usually ends in a horse that eventually comes into the poll high posture of their own accord, when ridden correctly, and on a light contact and without the constant intervention of the hand, they need to find their balance, develop suppleness, and above all become straight, if a horse has a natural apptitude for collection is it right to work it in a rubber necked btv posture,? or is it it better to wait however long it takes for the horse.

I am not talking here about the normal and desirable inclination of the young horse to find his confidence in the hand of the rider and stretch forward and a little down and actively seek the contact .
 
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