Ponderings: remembered pain verses actual pain

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Delicious_D

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Hello, i have also posted in New Lounge but thought as there are some very experienced people in here i might benefit from posting in here too. So here goes!

So Delicia has been ridden twice now. I had a lesson today with a very experienced instructor with a keen eye to see if she can see what i feel. Overall it was very positive, but there is no doubt dee is not 'right'. She isnt in pain but on corners she is short on her right hind (she has SI disease on the right part on her pelvis and SI joint) and when she gets tense she coils up and compresses her spine and starts to do a very strange gait indeed.

However, despite all of this she is not in pain. There is no pain response at all and she has never been so relaxed or soft as she is now. After a long discussion is was thought she is no longer in pain per se, but that she remembers that if she performs this movement for example, it creates this much pain and therefore she reacts like that. A kind of x + Y = z senario.

So how do i deal with this? Delicia is in the VERY early stages of her rehab. We are focusing on correctness of both myself and her so she follows a uniform way of going to help her help herself. We focused on the quality of the walk steps, getting her to lenghten her spine and come more round over her back, and riding forwards into the halt. Naturally delicia either wants to leave her right hind behind in the halt, for take a very strange standard bred stance where her forelimbs are correct but her hind limbs are outstretched behind her. I hate it when she does this as to move off she has to make such an exagerated step it places an awful lot of stress on her limbs and back. Under our direction she started to be more correct and relaxed.

I suppose what i am asking is, do i ignore a clearly learnt behavioural reponse, where she is expecting if i ask her to work correctly it wil hurt and therefore she evades, and get her working soft and relaxed, with lots of positive reinforcement to teach her it wont hurt her, or do i back off a little and either let her mooch about in a fashion she chooses to (not something i want to do tbh), ir back off completely, give her more time and come back and try again?

My gut tells me if i back off completely, she will still exhibit the same responses 1, 2 and even 4 months down the line, as it is a habit rather then a response. However i am very nervous of pushing her incase she is actually in pain. Although i really dont think she is. Shes no longer pinning her ears back and she only dipped her back once when the wind got up her tail and she shot of at a brisk walk .

I know this forum has a wealth of knowledge, and i cannot be the only person going through this, can i ask how you would deal with this?


The vets want her ridden in the fashion i am, and she is cleared for this.

Gah, why are horses so complicated?
 
Remembered pain has a lot to answer for IMO.

If you know she is definately not in pain then I would take it really slow and just show her it wont hurt either under saddle or on the longlines :)
 
Xmas Beastie said:
Remembered pain has a lot to answer for IMO.

If you know she is definately not in pain then I would take it really slow and just show her it wont hurt either under saddle or on the longlines :)
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Shes definetly not in pain. Its just tension showing at times in places she would normally show issues. Im going to try and break her into long reinging as i think this will really benefit her. Shes going fab in the pessoa and also loose schooling and everyone is commenting on what a different horse she is now.

I suppose i am extra sensitive to her now and need to perhaps just ignore the small (for they are small) old habits and work her positively, calmly and consistently :).
 
I just wondered about the feasibility of putting her on a dose of something, riding for a short time on it, showing her that it doesn't hurt to be ridden, then gradually weaning her off.
 
PoppyAnderson said:
I just wondered about the feasibility of putting her on a dose of something, riding for a short time on it, showing her that it doesn't hurt to be ridden, then gradually weaning her off.
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Might be worth while. I was told by someone to sedate her with sedaline so she doesnt react! (dont think ill be doing that ;) )

I didnt want to bute her as i didnt want her masked in any way but now i know she can be ridden might be a good plan. Thanks x
 
There are several things to take into consideration, remembered pain being one, compensation and uneven muscle build up when she was in pain being another, you will need to work at building her up, obviously, but also getting her weaker side to come fully into use.

I would start to use poles, walking over poles, correctly placed, will force her to work more equally but not in a forceful way, she will be unable to do anything else. She needs to relearn how to use the right hind, beginning with it stepping under when you use your leg, a few steps of turn on the forehand may help as long as she steps under correctly, try doing it in hand and see how she moves before trying under saddle.
I think as you do that she needs to start properly otherwise the muscles will not be built up correctly then at some point down the line you will still have to do the work changing it all again.
Stretching exercises that your physio does will also be useful if done daily.
 
be positive said:
There are several things to take into consideration, remembered pain being one, compensation and uneven muscle build up when she was in pain being another, you will need to work at building her up, obviously, but also getting her weaker side to come fully into use.

I would start to use poles, walking over poles, correctly placed, will force her to work more equally but not in a forceful way, she will be unable to do anything else. She needs to relearn how to use the right hind, beginning with it stepping under when you use your leg, a few steps of turn on the forehand may help as long as she steps under correctly, try doing it in hand and see how she moves before trying under saddle.
I think as you do that she needs to start properly otherwise the muscles will not be built up correctly then at some point down the line you will still have to do the work changing it all again.
Stretching exercises that your physio does will also be useful if done daily.
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I completely agree. Shes been lunged in the pessoa for a month and i have introduced trotting poles, hoping to get the go ahead to use raised poles.

It is something i thought of, shes never used that hind limb correctly so probably doesnt know how too, shes compensated in an incorrect fashion to her injury and now i need to under her learned way of going and build up a foundation of a more correct way of going and correct muscle tone.

Im waiting for the chiropractor to come out, its very early days since her diagnosis and the vet hasnt wanted any physio etc until early jan to see if treatment helps.
 
Hi SS. My friend had a horse with similar problems to yours and I agree with other posts here that it could be due to compensation and muscle memory. It might be worth doing to a bute trial that way you would know whether it is actual pain, I recall a previous post saying that you didn't opt for KS surgery so she could still be in pain.
She is a beautiful horse and I hope she gets better soon x
 
katherine1975 said:
Hi SS. My friend had a horse with similar problems to yours and I agree with other posts here that it could be due to compensation and muscle memory. It might be worth doing to a bute trial that way you would know whether it is actual pain, I recall a previous post saying that you didn't opt for KS surgery so she could still be in pain.
She is a beautiful horse and I hope she gets better soon x
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her kissing spines is a mild case with the SI disease being a bigger issue for her. I agree a bute trial might be a good idea, ill speak to my vet. Thank you x
 
Hi SS - my girl has one much weaker side on her hind end because of an old injury and we're just bringing her back into work and trying to make sure she evens up. Have been advised to do poles at least three (pref four) times a week, but to prioritise walking over them rather than trotting. This because in the walk they can't rely on the ping of momentum that they can in the trot, so they actually use the full range of movement and more of their muscles. I also notice with mine you can see the weakness more easily in walk in terms of how much lift, whereas there's much less difference in trot, which to me bears this out I guess. x
 
Thank you philamena - thats very useful. My vet has use doing trotting pole but tbh i prefer walking her over them, she finds it harder.
 
Hi there,

My horse has arthritis in his right hind, in both the pastern & the hock. The hock is a relatively recent injury, which we only found at the end of nov. I've noticed how much condition he's lost behind, and since having steroid injections in the hock to put it 'right', we've now noticed just how weak the muscles behind had got. He now feels correct but gets tired easy and feels like a 4 yr old who doesn't really want to sit on his back end. I'm definitely battling a lot of remembered pain & muscles that have got used to not working as they should!!!

I have been recommended:
Lots of work over poles, ridden, lunge, raised in walk & trot, echoing what everyone has said already
Hill work & lots of it!!
Working through puddles (in plenty supply at the mo!!) - I even been instructed to get down our Xc course & start lunging in the water jump!!
Hamstring stretches & shoulder stretches from the physio, which I'm doing daily pre&post work

Hoping after a few months I'll really see a different in the strength of his hind quarters...fingers crossed!!

Good luck! :-)
 
Hi ss, your horse will no longer be in pain, but she will have learnt this new movement when she was in pain to get away from it. It's called neurological adaptation, so even though she is no longer in pain, the learnt patterns will remain. The longer you leave her moving incorrectly, the more permanent the new movement will become. So it is very important to try get her moving correctly, anything you can do to engage her hind will help, as other people have said, pole work will help. Just thought I'd give you a bit more science behind what is going on :)
 
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