Ponies doing intermediates??? Now the same qualification as for horses

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little_pink_piggies

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Sorry to open a debate here! was just looking at the pony application forms, and it states that if the pony completes 5 novices, with the permission of junior selectors it can do an oiu21, then following that if it's successful it can go onto do normal intermediates....

I can't see a problem with experienced combinations doing this (noble springbok/libby soley, mayfdlower/alfie bleekman etc) but surely there is going to be an accident when a pony is overfaced too quickly with owners trying to increase its value, chances of selection etc. We won double gold this year without any of our ponies running intermediate?

I know the arguement for Karen O'Connor's Teddy pony, but with all due respect, Karen had ridden at 4* level for donkeys years, and as amazing as our current pony riders are, can we really expect them to do this?

When I had the ponies last year, if I had the chance to do an intermediate I would have deffo turned it down as I was so huge on them, that it would have been asking for an accident? If you scale it down so that the pony isn't struggling weight wise with the pilot, then they have to weigh under 8 stone at intermediate level I would have thought? And then you start hitting anorexia issues, or if not anorexia riders not being "strong" enough to be fully effective both mentally and physically? and personally i think that at an intermediate, a pony needs its rider to help it out all the way?

I don't know, just want other peoples opinions really, like I say I don't see the trouble with the experienced combinations that have jumped around necarne/europeans clear... but will we suddenly get loads of ponies being entered at intermediate level too soon to try and get selected?

Now that it has been lowered to the same qualifications as for horses, will more and more ponies run at intermediate? And I certainly felt (I don't know if I was being a wimp!) but the trials we have ask alot of the ponies, and do we really need to ask them any more?

Don't get me wrong I'm not angry or upset about it, and it's not sour grapes at all... Just would like to know peoples opinions on this? Sorry v long post!!!!
 
martha I do love you!

A very good argument sugar-muffin! Lets go and bang Ginnie Keen's and the rules committee's heads together.

It does seem to me that you miss at an xc fence on a int course, and you're gonna go arse over tit. Perhaps an ammendment to the rule "those COMBINATIONS [ponies] shortlisted for the Europeans during their partnership are eligible to compete in intermediate classes."

Future chairman of BE?
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Let them. The arguement could run for ponies or horses, should we restrict junior riders to what level they can ride at?Under 25's in case they haven't got the experience. I dare say most ponies won't make the move up to intermediate, but the ones that do will be successful.
 
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. I dare say most ponies won't make the move up to intermediate, but the ones that do will be successful.

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Yes, but with riders of relatively little experience, and surrounded by the intense competiton and pressure of FEI ponies, the majority are going to push their ponies and see if their luck will stretch that far. Indeed, many may not be able to accurately tell if their ponies are really up for it, (depsite the advice also provided.)

Surely, therefore, it is only a matter of time before someone pushes their luck too far, and, for example, only realises half way through their round that their pony really isnt up to it, or worse, after a horse fall.
 
Look at the tracks the ponies jump BSJA - they do 1.45s better than a lot of horses. And Ponies are a lot smarter than horses and know when to stop. And beside that most of the ponies are too big to be ponies anyway
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Im not saying they shouldnt be allowed to do it fullstop, i just think that it is almost too easy to qualify, and if you get a pony jumping around 5 of the smaller novices, then entering a harder intermediate (or any intermediate for that matter), you are almost asking for trouble? And if the more talented ones lose confidence or hurt themselves running around an intermediate aged 15, then will they still be around aged 25? Like the juniors such as alfie, who has run around more novices than a lot of adults, I don't have any concerns about, but I would just be a bit more worried about the lesser experienced combinations who just have the ambition to do an intermediate and rush into it too quickly with these new qualifications?
 
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Look at the tracks the ponies jump BSJA - they do 1.45s better than a lot of horses.

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But fixed timber fences at speed is a very different matter.

And martha! The entire forum will now think I miss going into every fence!!! (which i hope isnt the case
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I do agree but hopefully because it states approval must be saught from a junior selector the amount of ponies allowed to contest intermediates will be very limited.

I expect that all 5 runs at novice will need to be clear XC with very very few exceptions to allow a pony to even be considered to run intermediate.

So far I have only heard of two combinations taking the step up namely Libby and Althea and both have proved themselves very capable.

as for the height/weight issue, it all comes down to the individual combination at the end of the day. I personally think if a rider is too tall/heavy the pony will struggle at novice never mind Intermediate and the selector will take this into account before allowing any combination running intermediate.

Will be interesting to see how many other ponies start going up the levels now though...
 
What makes a pony and pony rider any less capable of going around an intermedaite than any other combination with 5 novice clears? as long as they meet the qualification criteria then i cant see the problem! at the end of the day i would think they were better off experienceing the bigger tracks with a pony they have a good realtionship with, and know how to ride, than on a horse they have had for 5 minutes (which lets face it, most of them have to do if they want to get on the junior team!)
 
haha well wasnt going ot mention that it this post... but i dare say that they will be ok! It wouldnt be the ponies i am worried about, more the lesser experienced riders!
 
If you qualify, I don't see why not. The ponies doing novice are good enough. Same arguement again for horses re:rushing. They have to be given permission. When I rode at Necarne it was stipulated which events I had to do to go, as the qualifications said I couldbut in real terms they know which are the harder ones. I assume this is why this is in place.
 
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Look at the tracks the ponies jump BSJA - they do 1.45s better than a lot of horses.

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But fixed timber fences at speed is a very different matter.

And martha! The entire forum will now think I miss going into every fence!!! (which i hope isnt the case
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Strangley SJing accidents when a horse misses are far worse than XC ones. You need to watch thrills and spills to see what I mean, I think it is because the poles go with them and they can't slither over the fence
 
totally agree with the poles thing with the sj... but distances are built for ponies there? and with all due respect to the eventers, the sj riders jump many more ponies/horses in general so do tend to have a better eye for a stride, and if you miss to a fence on a 14.2, it is more likely to run into trouble than missing on a 15.2/16.2 surely? Although they are v v clever, there is only so much we can ask? I just don't see the point in under 16s rushing to do it when we can win double gold without it? over 16s when they have had the pony longer and are keeping it, when the pressure isnt on to increase it's value i think is a different story... I have just watched many ponies struggle around trials in order to increase their value? and I just wonder if this will be the case now at intermediate level?
 
Not read it all but from the first post re weight

In the old days when 148cm could not do BE and they had to be 15hh and anything from 148cm upward just reg BE anyway like I did with my FEI team pony so there was still amazing "small" horses going round big tracks..... before Pony teams etc there was Polly S and her 15hh Dylan doing Badminton and she was not 8 stone and in the years where you had to carry 11 stone 11lb in Advanced and 3DE and she flow round all the big tracks.

Ok yes the rider on top of the 148cm needs to be special to go round Int and I'm not sure the 5 Novice will be enough but I also sending kids to the Pony Champs after only 1 PT is also just as unsafe as running a good pony at Int and if you look up the kids of the last few years there are some kids going to Sansaw without a clear at a N or a PT.... that needs looking into more before kids get hurt
 
yes but Polly S had more experience under her belt than some of the under 16 year olds? and exactly completely agree with you... both issues need addressing! will just be interesting to see, but i do hope that if it appears to be becoming unsafe that someone will put a stop to it before some damage is done to a pony or rider!
 
Everyone has to move up at some point. Many older riders will have less experience and their horses wont be as talented as the good ponies.
 
Yes, they do... but I'm just not sure if the qualifications put enough experience on the combinations clock... If you look at the horses recrods who go Int after only five novices, unless they are with a professional/already experienced rider, they often run into trouble! I just worry that with the pressure of increasing a ponies value, which is alot of what the ponys is about by the time the rider gets to 15/16... and would some people be taking alot of risks to increase their ponies value by 10 grand?
 
When I was a Junior at 14 and 15 i could only do JN or JOIT at 14 i did Lincoln JN and fell XC at water I only did that and I think one other JN (no PN in my day) at 15 I did Lincoln JN again jumped double clear and Belton JOIT double clear and was asked to Windsor Junior Champs I did one more JOIT and went to a CCI** OMG how things have now changed, in the 3 years I did Windsor Junior Champs there was a few more Novice riders that had falls inc a nasty one and not long after all that things changed with how they picked the Junior team etc

This was also on a pony that only stod 149cm and I was never 10 stone not even when I was born I'm sure.

After saying all that looking back now how unsafe was all that
 
I think there is a definite case for both sides of the arguement

It needs very careful monitoring to keep the ponies and riders safe. A you say the standard of Novices vary greatly, perhaps a number of the clears should be over 'certain tough courses'.
Perhaps they sould do IN first (any one with any sense would do IN anyway as a step up for both the SJ and dressage.

Do PC Opens count toward the Novices, particularly if they are run over a BE course?

Willough may attempt an IN next year, she is reg as a pony but didn't do FEI although was qualified, we decided to do JRN's instead.

I don't think I could ask Bee to put her round a full Int XC course as the pony would try her heart out and I think she would struggle and it wouldn't be fair on her.
 
I don't see the problem personally; we're not talking about 13hh native ponies here, but talented athletic sports ponies for the most part who are more than capable of jumping intermediate tracks. My 14.2 measured out of ponies so I did Juniors on him, he jumped round several intermediates and made them feel extremely easy. Many of the top ponies have more scope and ability than a lot of horses I see competing at BE! And the jump from novice to intermediate will filter out the vast majority of those who are not capable. At the end of the day what do a couple of inches matter?! As for the riders, the standard among a lot of the pony and junior riders is really high, and I don't see what age has to do with it, if you're capable of jumping several novices clear then you should be able to move up, same as anyone else in their position.
 
Bee's pony is a hairy native though, she is Sec D x Newfie and doesn't have an ounce of TB blood, hence why I think the Int XC may be too much for her, although she would probably tackle stuff that size out hunting.
 
Thistle, you've just illustrated what I'm about to say!
14/15/16 year olds are surely only competing in any discipline with the help of their parents and I would hope that these parents would put the safety of child/pony above the money angle. I hope I'm right in my assumption
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Trouble is many of these teenager rule the roost so to speak and you need to be both knowlegable and firm to know when to say NO. I suppose that is why Ginny Keen has to give permission, although in Bee's case I suppose she can just do it as she is over 16 next year.
 
I cant imagine swopping my horse for a pony over a BE novice track let alone an intermediate! But TBH, if they are getting regular clears round novices then I dont see why its any different than a horse going up to intermediate. Yes, of course ponies are smaller and jockies are younger but TBH I bet a lot of the kids doing JRN's are better riders than a lot of adults doing intermediates!

I mean, look at what ponies jump BSJA - don't 148's jump something insane like 1.30m's?! A lot of these sorts of ponies are extremely talented, more so than a lot of horses!

My only query would be about striding in combinations? I assume these would be made for horses?
 
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I mean, look at what ponies jump BSJA - don't 148's jump something insane like 1.30m's?! A lot of these sorts of ponies are extremely talented, more so than a lot of horses!

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Try the final jump offs which go up to 1m50 at the likes of Hickstead/HOYS/europeans!!!!!
 
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