Ponies shot by gov vets on Bodmin moor

The rescuers and charities are exacerbating the problem too.

Time for the RSPCA WHW etc to offer a subsidised euthanasia service to owners and stop messing about!!. Or open an abbotoir themselves......
 
Spook said:
The rescuers and charities are exacerbating the problem too.

Time for the RSPCA WHW etc to offer a subsidised euthanasia service to owners and stop messing about!!. Or open an abbotoir themselves......
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I agree but then they'd lose a lot of monetary support from fluffy bunnies who would hold their hands up in horror and find something else to donate to which the charities won't be willing to give up. Being pro active in PTS would not be a good move on their part even though it would be the best thing for the neglected animals. Poor animals are the losers whichever they choose.
 
The best that many of our equine charities (sic) can manage is to head a campaign to stop irresponsible breeding. What the bloody fools don't realise is that those who they're aiming their campaign at, can neither read nor write, and even if they can, they are all blissfully unaware of either the campaigns, or the campaigners. Lunacy.

Alec.
 
I actually think they should set up a breed standard & register for bhp, then cull or forcably remove all non-registered horses from the moors. All horses should be branded, so the owners can be identified (at the moment famrers can disown them & there is no proof they own an animal therefore they can absolve themselves from the responsibility of feeding them or their welfare). Until all horses can be traced to owners, this will continue.

You can't regard these as farmers breeding to produce a riding horse. They are bred for meat (if you happen to buy one atmarket for riding that's fine, but not where most go). They are a disposable cash crop. If they aren't going to make money, they are dumped. There is no thought to what is being bred, as long as it has flesh on its bones it can be sold for meat.

Persoanlly I'd take all non-dartmoors of dartmoor as well. Dartmoor is a breed which has evolved to cope with the hard conditions, that is what should be found on the moors. Again all should be registered so abuse would be traceable.

Farmers have to be responsible for the rest of their stock, why not their ponies? If that requires branding, fine. I'd rather see a horse branded than starve to death. There is no such thing as an exmoor hill pony, which is as it should be. Dhp also should not exist, only Dartmoors.

The only charity who gives a monkeys about these ponies is SWEP. You'd never see the RSPCA out in winter on the moors trying to get feed to starving animals.

WRT subsidised euthanasia. The farmers wont pay to put them down, they'll just leave them on the moor to starve. If they can't sell them for profit, they are dumped. These aren't hard up horse owners concerned for their welfare. As I said before, they are bred as a cash crop to make money.
 
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As a rule almost ALL animals are bred as a "cash crop"..... puppies, kittens, calves, piglets and foals!!!!!!...... Quite a few fish and reptiles too. It may not be your buisness and it may be cash only transactions but unless you only breed to keep and do not sell off the siblings or parents you are as (guilty?) as the next man/woman. Do you all know where your sold animals are?

So stop farmer bashing!!!!!!! There are bad eggs in all walks of life.
 
Do you all know where your sold animals are?

So stop farmer bashing!!!!!!! There are bad eggs in all walks of life.[/QUOTE]

Yes they are in the abbatoir.
Yes, there are good and bad farmers but i think the point is that these hill ponies actually have no commercial value, if they were a 'farm animal' as in cattle or sheep, being kept on the farmers holding and were worth nothing very few farmers would continue to keep them. But i do think there is an element of 'out of sight, out of mind' these ponies generally cost very little to keep, they are not routinely wormed, foot checked etc like most livestock. They also cost nothing to feed, unless the farmer brings in feed. They disappear onto the moors with no identity. In times of hardship, noone owns them, if they had a value the owners would soon reappear. Education is what is needed, the moors do need ponies, perhaps there should be a 'pony manager' someone who oversees the numbers of mares and stallions etc their 'owner' with their own identity mark (eartag). Any unmarked ponies could then be dispatched.
 
Oh Pip, I so agree with every word you've written and sadly, most of those farmers that have decided to 'crop' ponies for meat are the ones that would tend to have problems with their upkeep, both providing it and doing their best by them.

Spook said:
As a rule almost ALL animals are bred as a "cash crop"..... puppies, kittens, calves, piglets and foals!!!!!!...... Quite a few fish and reptiles too. It may not be your buisness and it may be cash only transactions but unless you only breed to keep and do not sell off the siblings or parents you are as (guilty?) as the next man/woman. Do you all know where your sold animals are?

So stop farmer bashing!!!!!!! There are bad eggs in all walks of life.
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See my reply to Pip above Spooks. It's not a general farmer bashing at all, only aimed at those who have proved beyond any doubt that they don't give two figs for their pony 'crop' and would rather toss them away to starve than feed and care for them. This is not a new problem as you can see by these posts; I was down on Bodmin 5 years ago and they looked appalling then both in type, quality and health; it's only got worse.

For your records, of the 24 I have bred since 1985, there are only 2 I have lost touch with and all of mine are bred to sell at some point in their lives. I still know where those I have bought in have gone onto as well so don't knock us all because we are breeding quality animals to sell.
 
It frustrates me that the welfare charities are still opposing visual branding in scenarios like this and vaguely whiffing on about maybe we can develop distance reading of microchips....and can't see that the momentary discomfort of branding ( additional to chip) for all ponies who are rightfully on the moor would help to protect the welfare of all the ponies on the moors, as those not branded who shouldn't be there would be so easy to identify and remove much more rapidly before the welfare issues arose.
 
As it happen I do know where every animal I have sold is, & am in regular contact with their owners (as I get uhuge pelasure in seeing them enjoyed & the owners love to tell me what they are doing).

I'm not saying every farmer in the country is irresponsible. I am saying these herds are owned by farmers, & their attitude to their welfare is dependant on whether they will make money from them. If they are that concerned about them they could do something about the indiscriminate breeding they promote in order to make some money from their cash horse crop. Too many animals on the moors does not benefit the ecosystem. Propoer control over numbers & breeding is essential, as it the tracability of every animal. If 'owners' wont voluntarily take on the responsibility for the basic welfare of the animals, then they should be liable to prosecution as much as if it were a sheep for example.

This really does wind me up, seeing them every day is heartbreaking.
 
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Spook said:
The rescuers and charities are exacerbating the problem too.

Time for the RSPCA WHW etc to offer a subsidised euthanasia service to owners and stop messing about!!. Or open an abbotoir themselves......
Click to expand...

It is ironic that if the RSPCA DID open an abattoir/ free euthanisation clinic, under strict and enforced welfare guidelines, they would, at a stroke, do more to reduce animal suffering than they could in a hundred years of their current way of functioning.

But then of course, the fluffies wouldn't leave them so much money in their wills....
 
ETS, and as a footnote; Hands up all those who've signed the Hillside petition to have Turners closed. You are contributing to, and exacerbating the problem.

My hand is up Teach'. Turners was not exactly a pinnacle of animal welfare, what I saw of it on the video it was disgraceful.

__________________
Hands up all those who've campaigned to have equine abattoirs closed. You are contributing to and exacerbating a worsening problem.


There IS a difference...... Right, back to my lines.
 
pip6 said:
Persoanlly I'd take all non-dartmoors of dartmoor as well. Dartmoor is a breed which has evolved to cope with the hard conditions, that is what should be found on the moors. Again all should be registered so abuse would be traceable.

Dhp also should not exist, only Dartmoors.



The only charity who gives a monkeys about these ponies is SWEP. You'd never see the RSPCA out in winter on the moors trying to get feed to starving animals.
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Please take a look at the website for the Friends of the Dartmoor Hill Pony. Another charity (as well as the Mare & Foal Sanctuary) who give a monkeys about these ponies. They may not be out there doling out hay like SWEP do but all these smaller charities are working in different ways to improve this situation.
One of the reasons there are still ponies on the moor is that they are excellent at eating and keeping unwanted vegetation down. The Park Authority agrees. So if all the non-Dartmoors were taken off, who would do all the eating? I doubt there are enough pure-bred Dartmoor ponies to do it. I agree it would be good if this were to happen but I think it's going to take time and consistent effort on the part of the local pony charities, the breeders and the National Park to make it so.

jrp204 said:
Maybe they should be eartagged, the smaller tags will only leave a small hole in the ear if it is removed (tag not ear).
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Isn't ear tagging horses and ponies illegal?
 
hackneylass2 said:
ETS, and as a footnote; Hands up all those who've signed the Hillside petition to have Turners closed. You are contributing to, and exacerbating the problem.

My hand is up Teach'. Turners was not exactly a pinnacle of animal welfare, what I saw of it on the video it was disgraceful.

__________________
Hands up all those who've campaigned to have equine abattoirs closed. You are contributing to and exacerbating a worsening problem.


There IS a difference...... Right, back to my lines.
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I'm not supporting the treatment which was viewed. Some of it was everyday slaughterhouse work, and some of the complaints were twaddle, one aspect of it was distressing, even for those hardened to such things. It's an abattoir, you'd hardly be likely to take your children there for a picnic.

Turners needs a change of management, a change of regime, and a focused and monitored approach to their work. There needs to be a complete change of emphasis and ethos. Turners do not need shutting down. Subjecting the animals which end up there, to an existence, is the greater cruelty.

As a matter of interest, when you signed the petition, did you make a donation? Were you at the time asked for a donation, and have you subsequently been asked for donations?

I'm no one's "Teach".

Alec.
 
No idea if tagging is illegal, if it is, why? If animal is bred predominately for meat what is wrong with it having a tag in its ear? Ok, someone may buy a pony off the moor with an ear tag in, remove the tag it may leave a small hole but would it matter?
Why is it ok for sheep and cattle to be tagged and not horses?
 
Sadly I worry that this article will achieve the own goal of inspiring "rescuers" (people who can't afford to and don't know how to care for horses) to rescue horses from the "terrible fate" of euthanasia.
 
Think the decline in dp due to the proliferation of dhp personally. They are essetntial, but the moor can also be overburdened by too many equines. Maybe there could be a phasing using only dp stallions to bring back the type over time?

What gets me is the irresponsibility & throw away attitude. If they were treated as well as other stock their lot would be greatly improved. I'm not saying they can't be farmed for profit, but basic needs such as sufficient food not to starve are a must.
 
pip6 said:
.......

What gets me is the irresponsibility & throw away attitude. If they were treated as well as other stock their lot would be greatly improved. I'm not saying they can't be farmed for profit, ........
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If the carcass had an end value, then they would be treated as "other stock".

For the carcass to have an end value, we need a properly run and managed slaughter system, etc.....!

Simply lecturing others (however well intentioned), isn't enough. We need a proper and fit disposal system in place, I feel certain.

Alec.
 
jrp204 said:
No idea if tagging is illegal, if it is, why? If animal is bred predominately for meat what is wrong with it having a tag in its ear? Ok, someone may buy a pony off the moor with an ear tag in, remove the tag it may leave a small hole but would it matter?
Why is it ok for sheep and cattle to be tagged and not horses?
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I was sure I'd read it on H&H, and here it is! http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/earmarking-ban-must-be-enforced-say-vets/

No idea why it's OK for cattle/sheep etc but not for horses. Possibly something to do with the useless DEFRA.
 
suestowford said:
I was sure I'd read it on H&H, and here it is! http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/earmarking-ban-must-be-enforced-say-vets/

No idea why it's OK for cattle/sheep etc but not for horses. Possibly something to do with the useless DEFRA.
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Thanks for that. So ear-notching and tagging are both illegal, are they? According to your quoted article, it's the BVA, not DEFRA, this time. Ear-notching and branding are no different in the cruelty stakes, and if it's ok for sheep and cattle, what sets horses apart? I wonder if those in office ever think first, before they hand down such stupid edicts. We're being governed by idiots.

Alec.
 
I think there has been some research carried out on the sort of injury that can occur with horses and ear tags and cattle/sheep with ear tags and it was shown not suitable for horses. This was all discussed ad nauseam on lots of forums when they discussed banning the branding of Exmoor ponies. I will try and track it down-I am not opposed to branding myself although I think the number of brands needed reviewing.
 
I'd be interested in the research peteralfred. I suppose cattle don't have to then wear bridles, head collars and have their ears clipped etc. as well. Horses seem especially sensitive re their ears and heads at the best of times. It can take a while for them to be retrained when ear twitched etc.
 
I think horses ears are too sensitive compared with cattle and sheep for ear tags to be appropriate. Also most cattle and sheep only have them in for a few years before they are slaughtered, which wouldn't be the case with horses.

I would support anything which improved long term welfare even if there was momentary or short term discomfort rather than something which could cause ongoing irritation or injury.
 
"Billy" my childrens 2nd pony was both branded and had an ear notch (tip actually off)....... neither ever bothered him, he was a fabulous pony.

Having had a number of foals implanted with identichips and seen branding...... I think the chipping is far worse from a pain point of view, foals very shy aftrerwards and pain/soreness for quite some time..... and on the neck, so makes handling difficult..... On another note I think that when a "loss of use" is paid out there should be a very obvious identifiying mark..... ear notch?? perhaps.

Untill there is an improvement in horse prices there will be horses dumped...... there are plenty of useless free horses available and a few good ones too.
 
Why don't the commoners rule that all ponies have to come off the moor for one month, say January. This way all the ponies could be checked and any 'poor' ponies could be dealt with, also we would know the "dumped" ones as they would be left on the moor and they could be dealt with another way. This would mean that all the owners would have to own up to their responsibilities and feed/care for their ponies for at least one month of the year.
 
Spook said:
The rescuers and charities are exacerbating the problem too.

Time for the RSPCA WHW etc to offer a subsidised euthanasia service to owners and stop messing about!!. Or open an abbotoir themselves......
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what when they already come under fire for having to PTS so many already????!!!! (shocked face) it shouldn't be for a 'charity' to have to do this, I agree with the fact of euthanasia as we in the UK are in a major crisis right now, but it cannot be left for a charity to do this. Defra and local authorities need to tackle these sorts of issues as they have in this instance. We pay for them in our council tax after all.....
 
Inthemud said:
It is ironic that if the RSPCA DID open an abattoir/ free euthanisation clinic, under strict and enforced welfare guidelines, they would, at a stroke, do more to reduce animal suffering than they could in a hundred years of their current way of functioning.

But then of course, the fluffies wouldn't leave them so much money in their wills....
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and so in turn they would cease to exist...... mmmm am sure alot of people here maybe happy at that thought, but who'd plug the hole?????
 
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