Pony Club Eventing Champs - XC course

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susie2193

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Hi, I have never walked the open eventing XC course at the PC Champs, but a friend of mine was there yesterday, it was her first open, and she was shocked at the size and technicality of it, just wondered what those of you who were there and have been before thought.

Thanks
 
It was most definately a championship course - but it was intermediate level BE at novice BE height...!

it was nice to have a competetion won by the xc and not the dressage for once!
 
I heard it was a technical course and was up to height.

As only_me said it is nice to see a testing cross country course so that the competition is not just about the dressage.

I suppose you have to expect it though being the Open Championship course. :D
 
I was there yesterday and at a double of corners (fence 16!!!) i thought oh jesus. http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=14200436&l=c28312dd9c&id=757405606 this is the fence.

i then found out that Caroline Moore did a coursewalk a kicked up a fuss about it being ridiculously skinny and difficult. urm im sorry pony club if a BE coach says something like that, alarm bells ringing?!!

i was also horrified to be held up on the course because someone who wasnt meant to be running xc did and fell off and tipped up over a fence. this person got eliminated in the sj and shouldnt be allowed to run according to rules.

anyway, im a bit gutted as my horse tapped its way round xc after crashing through an sj fence, and i decided to retire at fence 17 after taking all learners. now onto two weeks off for horsie.. *twiddles thumbs*
 
ps. if you look at said fence properly you can see it was built to jump on the left hand side not right hand side. also the line is still difficult between the two even if you jump the left, well done pony club!
 
Ballet's been out all season, and that course looked fantastic! Walked it today, and thought it was beefy and dificult. Wish I could have had a go at it. :D

I thought the penultimate fence was horrible... Glad to see that it wasn't a dressage competition, as for the last however many years our area has been!
 
From what I've heard I'm now extremely glad that we failed to qualify, having been gutted at the time!

There is championship level - which should be technical, up to height and make the rider think....and there is unrideable - from the sounds of it the double of corners, the fence after the water and possibly one other, were not just tricky, they were unreasonable questions that were more likely to cause an accident, wreck a horse's confidence or at best, ride badly.

Having looked at the results, it looks like carnage all round - plenty of very experienced combinations failed to get round clear and I am in awe of those that did achieve a double clear.
 
It was horrid. Most fences around the course caused carnaged in one way or another! Fence 4 (shield-ditch-skinny) caused so many accidents. I was stood there watching for five minutes in this time two riders fell off. People i was walking with were saying 'riding too forward' but
I walked the stride and from ditch to skinny it was neither a here nor there stride.

The water caused a fair few problems bit generally rode well if you rode the step out well then you were for a good line to the skinnyhiwever horses that tripped up couldn't quite get to the skinny. General feeling was that jump should have been a stride further away.

Double of corners caused havoc throughout the day. Too skinny. I believe there is a minimum width and when measured was under this - only
slightly yet still under. It would have been ok If it was the one corner
yet it wasn't henceforth making it harder and
cause so many concerns.

The combinations that did particularly well had done
a Intermediate BE along this point or a * whether it
be cic or cci. I think that's the kind of experience you'd need to get clear around the course.

Tough and Uninviting track. Defintley and OTT course which could have and should have been dulled down a bit to make it
a bit more rideable
 
I'ts PC eventing CHAMPIONSHIP so it will be hard. It's going to be skinny and big-but wont be beyond the max dimensions allowed, if it is complain. If not, make sure your horse is up to it. It is not suitable for those struggling round novice but there were ponies going clear xc, so obviously not that bad.
 
Believe me, people did complain, they just didnt take any notice. I would rather be on a pony through that double of corners than a horse as you have the time to put in another stride, and my horse is fine around novice BEs as well as other horses who faulted. my friends is an old 2* horse and she hasnt had a stop xc for the past two seasons and she struggled so its wasnt just horses who struggle around novices faulting!
 
also, ponies there were doing Pony TRIALS so ofc they are going to be getting round, i'd hope so if they are going forward to represent our country!

and they could have made it alot bigger, in comparison to some JRNs I've done it was small, but its just ridiculous when you can see a fence was built to jump a different way, not the way they flagged it.
 
Problem is pony clubs are finding it harder and harder to get a team that is up to championship standard. It is the same with British Riding Club, we are the only club in our area to put a team forward for open show jumping and open horse trials , so we just have to get round the regional and are through.
If it is so difficult it puts alot of people off and they do the lower level [if they are eligible]
Just a thought but if BRC and PC make it too difficult then they are going to limit their entries.
PS Also think BRC should forget the 3 day at champs as a 2 day is more than enough and road and tracks are not necessary
 
Sorry but sounds like typical PC champs - exactly what happened when at Sansaw

they have a few years of 'easy' tracks and then someone goes we need to beef it up and does so to an extreme so that only 3 people go clear in a section ;)

we did sansaw 2 years running 1st year yes tough but jumpable big and bold rather than technical 2nd year my reaction was OMG - bounce which was full up 1.10 and ABCD at the water (1 as a jump in and then 2 in the water and one out) all of which were skinny hay feeders on stupid turning 2 strides

you had fei ponies and jrns stopping (one that got E'd went on to come 2nd in the JRN champs and never had a fault at BE)

went to Draycott 1st year and thought it was a joke as it was so soft in comparison - do you see the trend ;)

so i'd expect next year to be a dressage comp :p
 
I think the pony club has a real identity crisis, this post just confirms it for me. If you really need an international pony or an established Intermediate horse to compete at the championships, then how does it reflect the pony club.

I'm in 2 minds about whether it's a good thingthat the standard is so high - when everything else is so dumbed down, or a bad thing, when the higher levels are so elitist. It does seem rather like the Novice challenge and to some degree the Intermediate stuff is the 'real' PC, the Open stuff is completely beyond the reach of the rank and file.

Certainly in our area, competition for NC is fierce, and of a decent level. Far fewer people try for Intermediate and very few for Open.
 
langside said:
went to Draycott 1st year and thought it was a joke as it was so soft in comparison - do you see the trend ;)

so i'd expect next year to be a dressage comp :p
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i agree, i did the intermediate eventing champs in 2008 and i did a double clear (my 6yo's first season of intermed!) and everyone did clears XC, then last year very few clears xc, and it was the guttsy who got around clear (inc me yay i won!) but then open this year, due to the water last year causing lots of complaints, this year the water was easier but the rest was harder!
 
Siennamum I agree entirely. I was surprised to see that the team from my area who qualified struggled as they are a strong team and the individual who went ended up with 75pens on his reserve pony for the europeans so it really must have been tough! It seems they struggle to find a happy medium. At my branches ode last year, the DC asked what I thought of the course and I said it was too tough for a pc novice class. There was a combination in it that wouldnt have looked out of place in a BE Novice. Her response: ' well its the correct height.' :S Says it all really.
 
SusieT said:
I'ts PC eventing CHAMPIONSHIP so it will be hard. It's going to be skinny and big-but wont be beyond the max dimensions allowed, if it is complain. If not, make sure your horse is up to it. It is not suitable for those struggling round novice but there were ponies going clear xc, so obviously not that bad.
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exactly this!!
there were clears, so it was hardly unrideable!!

and i don't quite understand how it was your friends first open? she must have jumped the open to qualify for the champs? ;)

at the end of the day, this IS the national pony club championships, the highest end of pc, it's hardly going to be a walk in the park!!!

having walked the course, i can safely say it did not exceed the appropriate dimensions, it was technical and up to height, but jumpable, as proved.

i think the problem is there are a lot of pc's that can't get a team for open height, so few teams at some smaller area comps, meaning they qualify on cricket scores! the only problem that should be raised is that teams should not be allowed to compete at the championships if they are deemed dangerous and incapable.

also, surprised at the amount of penalties in the SJ, which was most definitely not up to height!
 
OK, we were there and walked both tracks, but not competing so hopefully fairly objective. Also there last year and walked last year's tracks.

I think the Open was nearly all a completely fair Championship course: it wasn't over big at all, but was technical, skinny and needed thought and good riding. We walked the Open course after they competition had finished which was fascinating as you could see all the hoofprints showing the lines riders took :cool:.

Fence 4 did cause havoc, with a lot of riders hitting the deck, and the odd horse. It was a coffin: skinny in, ditch on the angle, 2 strides to skinny upright table. It was C causing the problems and it was chipped, covered in grease and showing some wear and tear when we got there :o Thing is, if you tried to straight line the whole combination, the 2 strides were indeed pretty short (although achievable). However, if you took a line that made you curve the 2 strides from the ditch to C slightly, the distance was perfect. The table was angled so that if you did this you would be straighter at it too, which was a bit of a clue ;) You could see that nearly everybody straight lined it - hence they hit C unless they really held for the 2 strides.

The skinny toothbrush hedge combination a few fences later also caused trouble. Again, it was all about line: you HAD to line up B before they jumped A (out of woods) which meant you had to bounce them off a fenceline on your left on the approach and jump A slightly left to right. Looking at the hoofprints many riders completely failed to do this, just jumped A straight on in the centre, then wondered why they had a runout when the horse landed at least a metre off line!

The water (including the fence after it) was tricky but had a slow route and anyway, we watched about 15 combinations in a row go through it with no trouble at all using a variety of tactics so it was perfectly jumpable.

The only fence that was a bit questionable was the double of corners, which was sited on ridge and furrow ground making it particularly tricky. I happened to meet up with a FBHS and a CDT trainer there also analysing the results so we looked at it for a good 10 minutes together. Basically, the line the fence encouraged you to take meant the ground dropped away on the approach to the first corner in the last stride before takeoff: I think horses were going to go on an open stride then lost their nerve at the last minute because the ground dropped away. The approach which appeared to work better was more of a "straight line" one (ie staying high on the ridge, for those who were there); however, because of the way the white flag was placed on the corner this made the fence look INCREDIBLY narrow and almost unjumpable on the approach, although when you got there it was ok. Then it rode fine on (I think) 3 strides to B. So that was probably the way to approach it, but we were lookking at it with hindsight which is always easier ;) Even on that line it was kind of a 3* technicality fence at 1* height. If the white flag had been placed 6" further to the left, or on the front of the fence, it would have made it far easier. By the way, the fence is in fact designed to be jumped on the left or the right side, BB, and has been jumped both ways on many occasions.

So I would think this is one fence they designer won't be very proud of and I suspect we won't be seeing it again sited exactly where it was this year. Otherwise my view is that it was a fair Championship course, and those who went round, even if they had a runout or two, should feel proud of their achievement.

FWIW it was not necessary to have an Intermediate horse to achieve it, a boy from our PC was there as an individual. He has done one season's eventing at PN and N two years ago and nothing but PC and hunting since then. He went clear XC all the quick routes and finished 5th despite 4 SJs down - a huge achievement :) Poor old PC, whatever they do is wrong: they get criticised if it's a dressage competition (only people with expensive big-moving horses can win), criticised if it's a SJ competition (not what it's supposed to be about) and now slammed for making it a real XC challenge!! I don't envy them trying to please everyone :(

AS a footnote, I thought the Intermediate course looked a couple of notches softer than last year: comments anyone?
 
Haven't seen the course so can't comment on that as such. But I do believe the open should be a real championship course, one to show us the best of the young riders in this country. Its not for the 'every day pony club kid' - they have the other sections for those. When I was in pony club (many years ago) there was only rider who went to the horse trials champs (don't think there was a novice back then, certainly not an intermediate). They were admired and had almost hero status in our branch.

Those who were on the horse trials team (I was one) were generally doing JRN (there was no prenovice or intro or anything like that back then, and you were only allowed to Junior classes from 15, 16 you could do normal BE novice). The courses were tough, even at area level and back then your dressage score really didn't matter too much!

So I agree, it should be tough, it should make these riders think about their lines. It should make them think about their riding. Maybe they went a bit too far this year but better that than too easy.

The next question is, are the pony club areas like the riding club areas where the courses do not reflect at all what will be required at championship level?
 
If Open PC area finals are at Novice level, then it makes sense the championship will be harder...
Do we think we shoudl simplify it by saying oh, PC's are struggling to field teams to this standard? Or say well in that case, let only those who are up to the standard go, let others step down from the challeneg an be content with doing well at their PC areas?
There are plenty of PC children up to the standard as shown by the fact there were quite a few clears (not I admit, a huge proportion) and there were so many sections for the individuals, there were bound to be problems.
I believe the fault lies with the PC more than the course (provided it was not above max heights) for not ensuring they only send prepared members.
 
interesting comments TD can't comment as wasn't there so interested on what others thought.

Another aspect (and this may only relate to our Area as im sure jumptoit could correct) relates to Area competitions and the standard set - yes they have to be the equivalant of XYZ but this standard has varied over the years.
Many years ago it was ran over a course that was unaffiliated result area did poor at Champs, another year we did it at Allerton Park (BE) area did well, last few years Cumwhinton (BE) and area has done well including winning in teams and individuals :eek: and friend won the bursery for most stylish XC round quite rare seems we're not as competitive in numbers as some others this year it was at Richmond and although it is a BE course it is well known for being a great step up course ie Novice is closer to PN ;) and result a rather poor showing at champs

We also have the problem that JRN is overtaking PC and when a JRN area qualifier is ran the same weekend as the PC areas the normal croud we're missing or riding a younger/ less experienced horse, therefore maybe pushing combinations to championship level who wouldn't normally qualify?

we have the problem of probably an average of upto 20 kids in the open, upto 25 intermediate and 100+ in the novice
 
SusieT said:
If Open PC area finals are at Novice level, then it makes sense the championship will be harder...
Do we think we shoudl simplify it by saying oh, PC's are struggling to field teams to this standard? Or say well in that case, let only those who are up to the standard go, let others step down from the challeneg an be content with doing well at their PC areas?
There are plenty of PC children up to the standard as shown by the fact there were quite a few clears (not I admit, a huge proportion) and there were so many sections for the individuals, there were bound to be problems.
I believe the fault lies with the PC more than the course (provided it was not above max heights) for not ensuring they only send prepared members.
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wise, wise words!
 
I think there are two factors which need attention: one, yes Area Qualifiers should be tougher to make sure teams are better prepared - this process has, I believe, started, Areas in our Area :p seem to be being beefed up; secondly I think PCs, DCs and parents need to take responsibility for making sure they only send people up who are up to the challenge. The same applies at PC as at BE - just because you are qualified doesn't mean you are ready. I think in the very competive Areas this is looked after by the difficulty of qualifying but it is true that in some sparser Areas it is very easy to qualify without really deserving to. But, for example, T did Open Areas as she wasn't eligible froanything else but I made it clear to her that even if she qualified (she didn't ;) ) we wouldn't be going to the Champs as they weren't ready. OK, maybe I have a better basis to make that decision than some other parents, but surely DCs should be able to?
 
I think it was a good championship course.

I think there were a few questions too far though - the penultimate fence was a log placed on a very steep slope and you jumped up - felt that was unfair on horses coming home.

The corners I thought were ok if the first one wasnt placed on the dip - that was unfair and caught out even the more honest horses.

The water rode very nicely, and those that kept a contact on the reins had no problems jumping the skinny! But the turn afterwards was far too tight and we saw some very very near misses who slipped and nearly fell trying to turn around the other skinny.

But the course rode well for those that kept their head and rode forward into the skinnys imo.

Agree with TD, it comes back to the areas being at a higher standard - I remember looking at photos on here of someones open areas last year, and it was more Intermediate standard imo!
Our areas were beefed up, and although still N height it was very technical, because it has to be as that was what the champs would be.
 
On the PC website.

My sister did the intermediate champs last year on her old pony, and it was the hardest track they'd ever attempted. In the SJ only about 20 people managed clear rounds, and lots had stops XC. In A's words, she'd have wanted to be doing PC Opens/ Novice tracks to feel confident doing the XC. However, that's how the course SHOULD be- difficult! This is to decide the best in the country...

And on a separate note, you can do it without horses who cost the earth- the PC I'm in managed just fine. One member has done 4 Novice tracks in the run up to this and did well, another was riding a youngster and did well.
 
Apparently there were a complaints that the course builder hadn't seen the corners in place? Don't know if this was true or if the corners were moved late or something.
I thought the courses were great, true championship courses which ensured that it wasn't a dressage competition.
 
I didn't see the course so cannot comment directly.

However, for PC/RC Championships at all levels, but especially Open level, the art to building a good XC course is surely to have the direct routes tough enough to sort out the wheat from the chaff and to reward good XC riding, whilst having a longer route that allows less experienced competitiors to get around safely whilst amassing time faults.

So for that double of corners, I don't think it's unfair, and the fences don't look huge, (although from what TD says maybe the situation wasn't ideal) but I would expect to see a very long route alternative - was there one?
 
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