Pony Club tests...

[billylula]

My daughter failed her C+ riding at the weekend. She was really disappointed as she's worked really hard for the last couple of years and is now eventing at BE100 with double clears and she's loved bringing on her big young horse. She failed because she wasnt straight in the saddle apparently although I can't see it and neither can her instructor. Literally noone has mentioned this ever, even the saddler. She's been to countless PC riding rallies specifically designed for c+ and noone has ever mentioned her lack of straightness. Still, she's resilient and is keen to take it again.

What makes me anxious is quite how vitriolic the examiner was. She didn't say one positive thing about my daughter, even though she completed all the riding tasks (ironically she was so happy with how the horse went!). She said her riding was way below what was required for c+ level and she'd lose her reputation if she passed her. This must have been so hard for my daughter to hear but she stayed calm and asked what she would recommend doing. She told us to get mirrors installed in our school! (we don't have a school!!). Anyway, she's had a lesson since then and we just can't see the crookedness! She also said that even though daughter had answered all the riding questions correctly she felt that the answers 'were too textbook'.

My question is, is it worth trying again as the feedback was so vague and there's nothing constructive that she can do to improve? How can she work specifically on her position if noone can see anything wrong? How can you improve on answering questions correctly?

I was really shocked at how nasty the examiner was. Surely she could have said ONE nice thing about dd? She was the only one in the group who did all the jumping and flatwork correctly, her horse was well behaved and nicely turned out. Is this what Pony club is like? Conversely the Care assessor was lovely and encouraging and passed her, saying she did really well so that was good. I don't want dd to take it again if she has to face the same attitude as it has really knocked her confidence.

 

[PaddyMonty]

Did you video the test?

 

[billylula]

No I really wish I had. I watched the xc part which they did really well, but we were discouraged from watching the rest. I think they should have two assessors for the riding part to stop it being so subjective.

 

[Red-1]

Yes, absolutely go back and do the test again.

I almost failed my B test, but it was nothing I had done wrong. Happily I saw her write F on the sheet and queried it! It was a case of mistaken identity, she asked what I would feed my horse in summer when on holiday, hacking, schooling and doing pony club rallies.

I said he is at sparse grass 24/7 and I feed a 3lb scoop of mostly chaff with some nuts after he is worked. I was most surprised to see I had failed. I saw the F and asked if she knew that fat welsh cob X was mine? Nope, she though the skinny TB was mine, the one where you could not only see all the ribs but the spinous processes as well.

She crossed out the F with rather a lot of drama, and asked how I would feed the skinny horse if she were mine, which obviously was a different answer!

So, I would not rule out mistaken identity.

Another possibility is that your DD was incredibly nervous on the day, and maybe she did tighten up and go crooked. Either way, bang her back in for it again (if she desires pony club tests)!

I would also watch from a distance (through hedges, the other side of a field, use binoculars) so you will know how she went. When I have prepped someone for an exam I tend to be able to get a glimpse somehow! Not to directly challenge the assessor, but to be able to decode the feedback.

Once she has passed this time, then I would then speak with the Pony Club about the feedback given by the examiner.

 

[billylula]

Thank you. She really wants to do her B test but examiner made it clear she's nowhere near ready for that (daughter is 16). She has been very ill earlier this year so I am completely accepting that she may have been tight on one side. The syllabus says at c+ they should be working TOWARDS a balanced seat, so I think the decision was unfair, especially as horse went well and did everything required. Rules for examiners say that assessors should look for ways to pass candidates, not reasons to fail them!

 

[billylula]

Definetlry wasn't mistaken identity although we did think that for the first few minutes of the assessment!

 

[Red-1]

Thank you. She really wants to do her B test but examiner made it clear she's nowhere near ready for that (daughter is 16). She has been very ill earlier this year so I am completely accepting that she may have been tight on one side. The syllabus says at c+ they should be working TOWARDS a balanced seat, so I think the decision was unfair, especially as horse went well and did everything required. Rules for examiners say that assessors should look for ways to pass candidates, not reasons to fail them!

If she is 16 why not go straight for the BHS stages? Probably serve her better later on in life anyway! You can prep yourself, or I did mine with some assistance on exam technique ( 6 weeks for AI, 3 weeks for II 10 years later) there is no need to do a full residential or whatever, I have prepped a few people within a once a week lesson format up to stage 3.

 

[billylula]

If she is 16 why not go straight for the BHS stages? Probably serve her better later on in life anyway! You can prep yourself, or I did mine with some assistance on exam technique ( 6 weeks for AI, 3 weeks for II 10 years later) there is no need to do a full residential or whatever, I have prepped a few people within a once a week lesson format up to stage 3.

Yes, we've looked into that. The nearest course is very expensive and a long way away but we may have to try and get a place. Tbh her PC doesn't have any formal B care training (which I presume she is eligible to do even though she hasn't passed her riding) anyway.

I work with a lot of different sporting organisations and best practice is always to give some positive feedback as well as negative so I'm surprised PC is so behind in this regard - or maybe I shouldn't be!!?

 

[wkiwi]

I would get your own pony club branch to put a complaint in to the main pony club organising body. It will do your daughter's confidence no good if she gets the same examiner again and apart from that how many other kids has this woman put of riding with such negative comments? Also, if your daughter has never been identified as crooked and was thought to be up to standard by the current pony club instructor then there must be something seriously wrong with the examining used by this person and it needs looking into.
I went through the pony club system (decades ago) and never got anything like this attitude, although have heard about it with one or two lecturers i worked with (particularly if they took a snitch against a particular student). Not sure why you weren't allowed to watch all of the ridden exam, but next time i would definitely video and be pushy about watching it all.

 

[Rowreach]

Not sure why you weren't allowed to watch all of the ridden exam, but next time i would definitely video and be pushy about watching it all.

Parents were never allowed to watch exams when I was assessing - they were usually taken off somewhere and given a cup of tea by the DC!

OP did anyone else have the same sort of experience as your daughter? If so I'm sure the DC and chief instructor will be giving feedback as a result.

 

[Shay]

You do have to be quite careful - PC is very incestuous. Depending on the DC / Area rep putting in a complaint may well mean you can't progress through PC at all - even if your complaint is upheld. It isn't fair or just - but you may be better off saying nothing I'm afraid.

Riding tests usually have two assessors but there will be a senior and a junior. It may be worth nothing the name of the assessor who you had difficulties with and not re-presenting for the exam under her. Otherwise the BHS route is actually more saleable in many ways. It counts for the purposes of UCAS points and is more widely accepted by training colleges if your daughter wants to pursue an equine career.

 

[hattie2525]

If you did the test at another PC branch and you get on well with you own DC I would recommend having a word with them so see if they would back you up for a dispute or if someone could watch her when she is retested to ensure the standard is or isn't being met if that makes sense.

With regard to carrying on with the B test, its not actually that much of a step up from the c+ and with the B test you can go straight in for your BHS stage 3 (or you could back in my day) which is very helpful as I think the PC tests are easier then BHS as you do them on your own horse not a strange horse and a lot cheaper! B test is also internationally recognized and can open a lot of doors if you knock on the right ones. Don't let her be put off, exams are very subjective depending on the examiner so maybe take two might be a whole lot better even if you do nothing.

 

[wkiwi]

Parents were never allowed to watch exams when I was assessing - they were usually taken off somewhere and given a cup of tea by the DC!.

lol - I can see the advantage of this (though some might be better with whisky).
I did mine in NZ last century and everybody watched (including many of the rest of the pony club and usually lots from neighbouring branches too, parents etc. and anyone else wandering by the grounds). Mind you, the exams never seemed to be as important as they are now as it was all a lot less formal. We didn't have C+ but we did have 'mock' B exams with an examiner beforehand so you more or less knew before you went that you were going to pass unless you did something dumb on the day.
Shame if it is become incestuous now and tif people are penalised for complaining

 

[only_me]

You do have to be quite careful - PC is very incestuous. Depending on the DC / Area rep putting in a complaint may well mean you can't progress through PC at all - even if your complaint is upheld. It isn't fair or just - but you may be better off saying nothing I'm afraid.

Riding tests usually have two assessors but there will be a senior and a junior. It may be worth nothing the name of the assessor who you had difficulties with and not re-presenting for the exam under her. Otherwise the BHS route is actually more saleable in many ways. It counts for the purposes of UCAS points and is more widely accepted by training colleges if your daughter wants to pursue an equine career.

Pc tests also count for ucas points.

There should have been 2 examiners for the ridden test, so they should have both been in agreement re. Pass or fail. You can always ask for more feedback and say plan to work on it in lessons. You should also be attending rallies as then you can see what you need to do.
Sometimes riding just isn’t passable on the day, doesn’t mean that they can’t ride to that level but you have to be able to ride at the exam level in front of them under pressure.

Just do the test again but make sure there are 2 examiners, and ask dc to watch or get a higher trained examiner to do it

 

[Rowreach]

lol - I can see the advantage of this (though some might be better with whisky).

One memorable day I had to fail my boss's daughter (C+ care), but fortunately she didn't hold it against me

As an employer I would actually be more impressed if someone had PC tests (B and above) than if they had BHS exams - especially since the BHS "unitised" everything. PC people tend to have more hands on experience at actually looking after a pony, whereas some of the products of the BHS system, especially if they've been at equine college, can have relatively little.

 

[EventingMum]

They actively discouraged parents from watching the tests when my son did them but I seem to remember there being two examiners when he did his C+. Sometimes I have heard stories of failures that really won't have been anticipated - like the candidate than had been on pony and junior GB event teams and failed her A test riding, the examiner said she was so bad she wouldn't let her near horses she owned!

It's good your daughter wants to re-sit the test and hopefully will chalk it up to experience and have a different examiner next time. When I sat my A test there was another candidate who was sitting it for her 6th attempt, she had passed her Stage 4 but still couldn't crack the A test and had made it a personal challenge to "beat the system" which she did on that 6th attempt.

My one concern is how nasty the examiner sounded, I don't think that is acceptable at all. Riding can be a subjective thing but results, whatever they are, should be delivered in an empathetic, constructive way.

 

[billylula]

It was the attitude of the examiner that shocked both of us. If she'd just said one positive thing it would have given dd something to cling on to. I can't believe she couldn't have found one thing to praise. She seemed to take pride in belittling her. I wish I'd said something at the time

 

[eventer and proud]

I know some one who failed B as they were asked "how long does it take to get a horse fit for competition?"
They answered "what type for what level"
The examiner answered "a normal horse"

 

[Julia0803]

My son and his friend failed the c test earlier this year.

When the dc and their pc instructor looked at the results sheet and discussed how it went with them they both said they thought the examiner had been very harsh and that they felt the examiner they had had on previous occasions would have passed them.

They want to put them in for the test again this summer with the other examiner that they’ve had previously.

The only memorable nice thing she said to my son was how lovely and genuine his pony is (which is true in our unbiased opinion 🤣 but still!)

 

[SusieT]

Were you at the feedback to hear what the examiner said? 16 year olds girls are good at only hearing the negatives! If you didn't se the test you dont knw if she sat crooked or not. An I note you saying quite a lot the horse did what it was supposed to - the test is not at all about the horse so this is actually irrelevant really its about how she influences the horse. In saying that examiners need to say positives as well and absoloutely I would do it again, but go and do some more training first and do a few mocks, ideally with csomeone who also examines at c+ level.

 

[Rowreach]

An awful lot of these tales are "so-and-so failed because of [this one thing]", but that simply doesn't happen, unless they do something utterly dangerous! Most assessors actively want to pass people, we will look for as many positives as we can find, but if the negatives outweigh them then we can hardly say it's a pass. However, I do agree that candidates should be given encouragement and clear feedback as to what needs to be improved. And then they need to take it on board.

 

[only_me]

An awful lot of these tales are "so-and-so failed because of [this one thing]", but that simply doesn't happen, unless they do something utterly dangerous! Most assessors actively want to pass people, we will look for as many positives as we can find, but if the negatives outweigh them then we can hardly say it's a pass. However, I do agree that candidates should be given encouragement and clear feedback as to what needs to be improved. And then they need to take it on board.

Same, I’m mostly stable management side but emphasis is on encouraging and constructive criticism. There are things that you will definitely fail on, eg. Putting on a stable bandage with riding gloves or looking in a horses mouth while still tied up. It’s purely a safety reason for failing, but they can’t pass as they might still do it.

I get the feeling OP that the examiner said positives as well as negatives but it was the negatives that your daughter picked up on and remembered. It’s common to do that. If there was 2 examiners as well then they both have to be in agreement to fail her, and it’s not an easy decision to make. It’s also not one they want to make unless they have to.

 

[Sophire]

I would definitely get your daughter to try again OP. I loved my PC experience and so would hate to think she would miss trying again due to this. Maybe have a few lessons with someone new to see if they would pick up on it also? Or in the mean time really work on her being straight, even if she thinks she is already.

I would go with above on them not wanting to fail you!! I joined PC at 13 and went straight in at my C+ and failed on the care side as I dropped the headcollar to the floor when tacking up!! I wouldn't normally have done it but I was tacking up in a different environment and just had a mind blank when there wasn't something immediate to hook it on to. The examiner was so so apologetic about failing me but there was nothing she could do! I re-took within a few weeks with a different PC and passed as my brain stayed in my head on that particular day!

It really isn't unfortunate but happens to so many, try again and try and keep spirits up. Don't let it knock your daughter's confidence.

 

[billylula]

Same, I’m mostly stable management side but emphasis is on encouraging and constructive criticism. There are things that you will definitely fail on, eg. Putting on a stable bandage with riding gloves or looking in a horses mouth while still tied up. It’s purely a safety reason for failing, but they can’t pass as they might still do it.

I get the feeling OP that the examiner said positives as well as negatives but it was the negatives that your daughter picked up on and remembered. It’s common to do that. If there was 2 examiners as well then they both have to be in agreement to fail her, and it’s not an easy decision to make. It’s also not one they want to make unless they have to.

Nope, I was there and listened to the whole thing. Not one positive. I am old enough to know not to necessarily take my child's word on this! She did everything correctly (as in all the jumps, turn on the forehand etc) but apparently her position was so bad the examiner couldn't pass her.

As I've said before she's resilient and will take it again, but I don't think I want my children involved in an organisation where they care so little for kids wellbeing. I know its a badge of honour for Pony Club examiners to be uncompromising and hard, and she's had enough knocks over her riding life, but we were both shocked at the way there was absoloutely no attempt to mention anything positive.

She will take it again and see what happens.

 

[DD]

glad shes going to take the test again. i'd complain to HQ about the examiners attitude

 

[Rowreach]

I don't think I want my children involved in an organisation where they care so little for kids wellbeing. I know its a badge of honour for Pony Club examiners to be uncompromising and hard ....

I think that is rather unfair on those of us who most certainly have never considered it necessary to be "uncompromising and hard", and have done so much to help children learn how to look after and ride their ponies, but if you genuinely feel like that then I would suggest you forget Pony Club and go down the BHS route. Although they occasionally fail people too.

 

[teapot]

One memorable day I had to fail my boss's daughter (C+ care), but fortunately she didn't hold it against me

As an employer I would actually be more impressed if someone had PC tests (B and above) than if they had BHS exams - especially since the BHS "unitised" everything. PC people tend to have more hands on experience at actually looking after a pony, whereas some of the products of the BHS system, especially if they've been at equine college, can have relatively little.

The BHS exams have changed again, the units are far less recognisable than they were before, and a lot of more hands on knowledge is needed for the exams. They've also ditched the classroom theory based 'describe this feed' sessions.

 

[Rowreach]

The BHS exams have changed again, the units are far less recognisable than they were before, and a lot of more hands on knowledge is needed for the exams. They've also ditched the classroom theory based 'describe this feed' sessions.

Yes I should have been clearer, I'm talking about people who already have qualifications, and I'm critical of a system which splits an assessment into bits which can be failed and retaken over and again. You will never get away from the fact that most PC-ers will have grown up looking after and riding they ponies while large numbers of BHS candidates come via the college system and may have little to zero hands on experience.

 

[billylula]

I think modular exams are definitely the way to go.

Yes it might sound hard but the pony club needs to regulate the way their examiners work. It's not acceptable to be so unpleasant.

 

[only_me]

I think modular exams are definitely the way to go.

Yes it might sound hard but the pony club needs to regulate the way their examiners work. It's not acceptable to be so unpleasant.

At B the stable management is a different part of the test to the Riding. So you can pass Riding but fail stable management. It’s the same from B test up.
The pony club test system works very well and just because you have had an unpleasant experience of one person does not mean that PC have to change how they do things...

If you feel so strongly about it then contact your DC and lodge a complaint. Or the person that looks after the exams on the committee. Do the test under a different examiner. It’s not an area matter nor a national one.

Out of interest, did you ask for feedback from the second examiner?