Pony is starting to bite

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KEK

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Pony is rising 4 Connie, very food motivated. I have trained my dogs using R+(positive reinforcement)for 20 years, and whilst I understand horses are not dogs, and they need to be trained using R- (pressure release) for riding, I was trying to use some R+ in his life. But he has started to be quite bitey. He has bitten my husband twice, for just walking past him. Every time he comes over to say hi (whenever he sees me) he grazes his bottom teeth against my hand, like he is looking for food, and sometimes he will bite. He has turned around to bite when I am tacking up.

He gets carrots for the following behaviours:
1) to desenitise/counter condition the things he doesn't really like - after he takes the bit, to have the girth done up, if he stays still when I get on. In the arena after his lesson.
2) to reward offered behaviour on the ground, e.g. laterally stepping, treat given directly after behaviour
3) as a lure (carrot stretches)
4) "just to say hi" carrots at night after I haven't seen him all day at work.

He is also very pushy when I hook his food bucket in. In a dog, I would just lift it up until it managed to control itself but difficult with a horse.
Am hoping I get some thoughts that are not just "don't give him anymore carrots", that will be super hard for me. TIA!!20200328_115659_resized.jpg
 
I think unfortunately the way to stop this is, no more carrots! Sorry! I'm sure someone said on here that unlike dogs when you give a horse a treat they think they are 'taking' it from you rather than you giving it to them so using food as a reward is never a good idea. I would instead use 'good boy's and a scratch/stroke/pat/release of pressure as a reward and not treats.
 
Using food as a reward is fine in certain circumstances, and very effective. However, some horses are never particularly level headed with treats as rewards, and treats given to say hello or to distract from something scary is is problematic with most horses.

Having said that I would cut all treats out with yours for while if he has got to the stage of nipping.
 
shortstuff99 said:
I think unfortunately the way to stop this is, no more carrots! Sorry! I'm sure someone said on here that unlike dogs when you give a horse a treat they think they are 'taking' it from you rather than you giving it to them so using food as a reward is never a good idea. I would instead use 'good boy's and a scratch/stroke/pat/release of pressure as a reward and not treats.
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Oh bother lol.
 
DabDab said:
Using food as a reward is fine in certain circumstances, and very effective. However, some horses are never particularly level headed with treats as rewards, and treats given to say hello or to distract from something scary is is problematic with most horses.
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Yes, I was thinking of stopping the hello carrots, they are for nothing anyway. And maybe stop the tacking up ones too. But to continue the carrots that are rewarding a direct behaviour (ground work) ? Thanks
 
KEK said:
Yes, I was thinking of stopping the hello carrots, they are for nothing anyway. And maybe stop the tacking up ones too. But to continue the carrots that are rewarding a direct behaviour (ground work) ? Thanks
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If he knows what you mean now why would you treat him for it? When you train a dog to sit using treats do you then give it a treat every time it sits for the rest of its life? If you're going to use treats you have to use them to shape behaviour, rather than teaching the horse a novel way to demand food.
 
DabDab said:
If he knows what you mean now why would you treat him for it? When you train a dog to sit using treats do you then give it a treat every time it sits for the rest of its life? If you're going to use treats you have to use them to shape behaviour, rather than teaching the horse a novel way to demand food.
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Yes, I continue to reward the dogs (mainly toys) for behaviours performed in training, obviously not in the ring but because they have had so much reinforcement for the behaviour in training they will do it in the ring without.
 
KEK said:
Yes, I continue to reward the dogs (mainly toys) for behaviours performed in training, obviously not in the ring but because they have had so much reinforcement for the behaviour in training they will do it in the ring without.
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Ah ok, well you can do the same with horses, just change the reward from food to vocal/giving fuss pretty quickly :).

Eta: it should be noted that lots of people never use treats with horses, so if it causes problems you won't be missing much by just having a no treat rule
 
DabDab said:
Ah ok, well you can do the same with horses, just change the reward from food to vocal/giving fuss pretty quickly :).

Eta: it should be noted that lots of people never use treats with horses, so if it causes problems you won't be missing much by just having a no treat rule
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Ok thanks. Guessing I'm seeing why that is the case!
 
I asked something similar on a fb group a few days ago! Can’t link you as it’s a private group but it’s empowered equestrians R+. I wasn’t sure whether to continue with food rewards or whether that would encourage more nipping. Someone suggested I click and then throw the treat into a bucket so they aren’t searching my hand. Maybe give that a try? With mine I now only give mine treats when I’m training him with the clicker. Even if I just have a few spare carrots or something I won’t give them as a treat for no reason. I’ll ask him to do something really simple and then click and treat. Eg I’ll ask him to step back or do a stretch with it etc. So even though he’s not doing anything particularly hard he’s still only getting them when he’s earnt it hah
 
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If you still want to use treats as a reward, I'd suggest using something with lower value. Sometimes, the treat itself is so exciting that it overwhelms the behavioural training. I can't use a Likit as a reward treat with Blue, because she gets so excited by the prospect of all that revolting sugar that she stops paying attention to the clicker. Equally, I can't use just a handful of chaff, because that's too boring to count as a treat. You need to find a balancing point.

It's not clear from your post, but I'd also suggest clicker training, rather than general, "You did something good," treating. The way horses' memories work, it's hard for them to associate, "I stood still for mounting," with, "I got given a treat!" without a definite marker for, "This is the desired behaviour." As far as he's concerned, he just sometimes gets given treats and sometimes doesn't.

I still give Blue random, non-training treats, but I've taught her that she has to look away to get a treat because she was starting to mug people. Now, her version of mugging is to repeatedly look away! (She doesn't get a treat every time she asks for one, but she has to look away in order to be given a treat.) It may be worth trying to teach your pony something like that - a way to say, "Hey, I want a treat!" that doesn't involve teeth.

For putting his feed in, teach him to back up when you enter the stable. I haven't been very successful teaching Blue that (probably because I'm not the one who's in and out of her stable most often), but I taught both my old share horses. It makes it a lot easier and safer for feeding, haynets, mucking out, etc.
 
K95 said:
I asked something similar on a fb group a few days ago! Can’t link you as it’s a private group but it’s empowered equestrians R+. I wasn’t sure whether to continue with food rewards or whether that would encourage more nipping. Someone suggested I click and then throw the treat into a bucket so they aren’t searching my hand. Maybe give that a try? With mine I now only give mine treats when I’m training him with the clicker. Even if I just have a few spare carrots or something I won’t give them as a treat for no reason. I’ll ask him to do something really simple and then click and treat. Eg I’ll ask him to step back or do a stretch with it etc. So even though he’s not doing anything particularly hard he’s still only getting them when he’s earnt it hah
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I will look up the group, sounds like it would be right up my ally. Good idea RE throwing the treat, I do that a lot with the dogs too. Thanks!
 
Pippity said:
If you still want to use treats as a reward, I'd suggest using something with lower value. Sometimes, the treat itself is so exciting that it overwhelms the behavioural training. I can't use a Likit as a reward treat with Blue, because she gets so excited by the prospect of all that revolting sugar that she stops paying attention to the clicker. Equally, I can't use just a handful of chaff, because that's too boring to count as a treat. You need to find a balancing point.

It's not clear from your post, but I'd also suggest clicker training, rather than general, "You did something good," treating. The way horses' memories work, it's hard for them to associate, "I stood still for mounting," with, "I got given a treat!" without a definite marker for, "This is the desired behaviour." As far as he's concerned, he just sometimes gets given treats and sometimes doesn't.

I still give Blue random, non-training treats, but I've taught her that she has to look away to get a treat because she was starting to mug people. Now, her version of mugging is to repeatedly look away! (She doesn't get a treat every time she asks for one, but she has to look away in order to be given a treat.) It may be worth trying to teach your pony something like that - a way to say, "Hey, I want a treat!" that doesn't involve teeth.

For putting his feed in, teach him to back up when you enter the stable. I haven't been very successful teaching Blue that (probably because I'm not the one who's in and out of her stable most often), but I taught both my old share horses. It makes it a lot easier and safer for feeding, haynets, mucking out, etc.
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Yes good point RE treat value. I don't think he's over threshold when learning as he is still able to perform the behaviours though. More like at other times he's like "oi, I wanna carrot."
I don't really bother with using the clicker much in dogs anymore, unless I'm trying to get a dog operant/offering, I have high drive dogs and they get overthreshold/overaroused. I could try it with him, to see if it would make it clearer that "this is the time I get treats only ".
I like the look away to prevent mugging, that we could definitely do for hello /random treats.
He doesn't have a stable, is fed on a feeder that hangs on the gate. But I could definitely teach him to back up when we enter (using treats, lol!) Thanks for your thoughts!
 
Unfortunately, I think a lot of it is dependent on the individual horse. Mine have always been given treats by hand, both when I check on them in the evening and when I'm rewarding positive behaviour, and none of them are at all nippy. However, one particular gelding that I know of has an owner who does the same, and he was an absolute menace when we liveried at the same yard. If yours can't remember his manners once treats come out, it might be best to just cut them out completely.
 
I tend to agree, JJS.

I know of a particular gelding at my paddock who is fine if you have no carrots, minds his manners while his rug is adjusted or removed etc. But bring out something tasty and its ears back, teeth forward, and a demand for more, "Or you'll get it in the- " type behaviour.

I don't know if he was 'trained' to be a bully or he's just a bolshy horse by nature, but he's so much nicer to deal with when carrots are part of his meal rather than given as treats.
 
I tried no carrots for his in hand walking over poles and I got a lot of foot stamping disgust!
 
You are going to have to STOP FEEDING this pony!

End of.

There are other "positive rewards" you can give him that are not food related such as rubbing him somewhere nice like his withers or neck, but you are going to have to radically re-think the rewards system you're using. To quote Michael Peace, "if you want the same results you've always had then do the same things you always have".........

Also bear in mind that carrots contain Beta-Carotene; I know some humans cannot tolerate this and I've heard that some equines react negatively to it too.

Yes your youngster will stamp his feet and protest! Like any spoilt child basically. You will need to stand firm on this and not yield!

But - please - keep yourself safe; body protector, hat & gloves, plus safe footwear.
 
I, in general, am happy to treat horses ad hoc out of the hand but this isn’t usually as a positive reinforcement for training. I’d caveat that with there are certain things I would hand treat for if I had a problem, eg catching, loading etc.

But the minute I started getting a pushy horse hand treats are off the options.

It sounds like you have gone well past the pushy stage and are getting to ingraining these behaviours. Please stop this path you are on before it heads rapidly downhill for both you, your partner and the pony.
 
KEK said:
I tried no carrots for his in hand walking over poles and I got a lot of foot stamping disgust!
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I have done a lot of backing, retraining and schooling and have never used treats for what I consider normal parts of their education, certainly not for walking over poles which most love to do so the reward is the act of doing it, being told they are clever when they try harder to pick their feet up, even when using poles and some very tricky exercises during rehab most know when they are doing well and gain confidence that way, having them thinking about carrots while doing an exercise seems counter intuitive to me.

I do treat, often totally randomly if I have something in my pocket and none will expect anything the next time I see them, carrot stretches are the only consistent use of a treat, other than the odd tricky to catch one that may get the odd treat even once it is easier, once they get the hang of the exercise most will just get a few bits of grass to follow and are more than happy with that.
 
KEK said:
I tried no carrots for his in hand walking over poles and I got a lot of foot stamping disgust!
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I'm a non-treater exactly because I never want this kind of behaviour and don't see the benefit in treating that makes it worth the risk with any horse.

I use it only in very specific circumstances. Carrot stretches and to catch, after the headcollar is on, as my current pair can be flighty to catch. Otherwise, their reward for behaving well is my approval, and you can see in their faces that it's a reward for them to be told what good boys they are.

I'm totally perplexed as to why you are giving him a treat for walking over a pole and I think this is key to why he is biting. I think you might need to be honest with yourself that you are treating him because you love him, and recognise that his response is that of a spoiled child.

Can't fault you for loving him, he's a super pony :)
 
This isn't the same situation, but does involve treats. In my teens I worked at a riding school. Boss bought a lovely pony, beautifully mannered, a real sweetie. One of the young riders fell in love with him and persuaded her mum to buy him for her. They moved him to local grazing with other horses and that pony proceeded to get a very bad reputation. Girl stuffed him with treats and was far too soft to discipline him at all. Result a dangerous pony who chased everyone who entered the field to get to their own ponies, used teeth and heels. Such a shame, never heard what happened to him in the end.
 
I only treat horses that aren't food obsessed. My own horse gets lots of treats, because he is polite and wouldn't dream of mugging me. My shetland never gets hand fed, and I would be really cross if I caught anyone treating him, because he is a nippy little so and so. If he gets any veg, it's in his feed, or thrown into the field for him to find. I dont use treats during training, as I find that they are focusd on the treat, not the learning. Despite not getting food rewards, he lunges, long reins, does pole work, small jumps and walks under, over and through all sorts of scary obstacles with no problem.
On the flip side, I'm having a few issues with a livery horse, who is very food obsessed, has no spatial awareness, and an owner who uses treats to take the mares attention off things that she (owner) thinks are scary. Giving her treats takes her attention away from whatever we are trying to teach her, and from situations where she needs to focus on spooky stuff, and figure out that it's actually ok. The mare now stops dead and swings her head round every time the riders hand moves, which is annoying, and on several occasions, she has smacked her owner in the head when she leaned over to do her girth up. She is a pain in the bum to deal with on Mondays, because she's on DIY at weekends - I always have a discussion with her about barginess, and waving her giant head around dangerously, because she's been stuffed with treats whilst "training" the previous two days. Her training doesn't seem to have progressed, but her manners definitely get forgotten.
 
I have always given food rewards to my horses and never had one try/threaten to bite. I think it is something about the handler's body language which makes the difference but can't explain it to you without seeing you and the pony in action. I would ditch the carrots though, I think they are much too high value for frequent use. I feed Agrobs haycobs as a bucket feed and use those as 'treats' too.
 
I can’t give me cob anything by hand or he just looks for it all the time. The only exception is to catch him, where he now associates his headcollar with a treat and is 100% to catch now. I can even tell if somebody has given him treats while I’m not there as he’s straight to my pocket. I did try clicker training once and he got so excited over the though of carrots there was no chance of him calming down enough to learn anything. My others are fine with treats (but don’t get them often because it’s not fair on the cob).
 
If I had £1 for every horse who has been ruined, and allowed to become dangerous by well-meaning 'natural horsemanship' training, I'd be a very rich person.

Horses need clear boundaries - if you watch mares, they discipline their foals instantly. I may get flamed for this, but if a horse bites, I slap its muzzle. If a horse goes to kick me, it gets a slap and verbally warned, too. The horse would be in no doubt it had done wrong.

On the other hand, I praise mine verbally, I give them treats (mints, carrots and apples), I scratch their itches, I have a good relationship with them - and they are happy enough because they are clear about what they can and can't do.
 
Just noticed you said he is very pushy when you feed him. I always make horses go back before I will feed them (I open the door and put the buckets on the floor or walk in with them).
Going back is an easy thing to train. You say 'back' and initially push or tap him on the chest. When he goes back say 'good boy' and feed him.
If on the other hand, he refuses to back up politely or threatens you, then you walk away with the feed bucket.
Try again a little while later.
It's amazing what an effect seeing their breakfast depart can have. :D
 
Wouldnt call natural horsemanship a source of treats and consequently biting as I have never hand treated mine for any particular reason. They do get carrots etc but not for performing just when I feel like it. My natural horsemanship is far more a telling off for wrong actions and for being good a scratch or rub. Natural horsemanship is just that they are treated like a horse. I wish I had a pound for every head shy horse I came across after slaps on the head for biting
I can also walk through my field with 4 buckets of feed as they must step back while I sort out whose is whose without pushing
 
windand rain said:
Wouldnt call natural horsemanship a source of treats and consequently biting as I have never hand treated mine for any particular reason. They do get carrots etc but not for performing just when I geel like it. My natural horsemanship is far more a telling off for wrong actions and for being good a scratch or rub. Natural horsemanship is just that they are treated like a horse. I wish I had a pound for every head shy horse I came across after slaps on the head for biting
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If your horses are headshy you are clearly doing it wrong.
'Natural horsemanship' is Parelli, Monty Roberts and all the other 'trainers' out there - I have yet to meet a 'follower of Natural Horsemanship' whose horses were properly cared for or mannerly.
Sigh.
 
Mine are not head shy it is a multitide of others that are. I treat mine as horses always have so yes it is a form of natural horsemanship the emphasis being horsemanship. I have never cultishly followed any guru but do listen and learn from any source. Violence is never the answer
Not quite sure how slapping can be done right or wrong to be honest it is still slapping
 
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