Pony is starting to bite

[Shilasdair]

Mine are not head shy it is a multitide of others that are. I treat mine as horses always have so yes it is a form of natural horsemanship the emphasis being horsemanship. I have never cultishly followed any guru but do listen and learn from any source. Violence is never the answer

Are you typing on your phone or ipad? Your posts are hard to follow.

 

[WandaMare]

Mine rarely get treats, I only tend to use them as a distraction if I need them during vet treatment, and that is more to help the vet. If they get them at other times, I put them in their feed buckets, never from my hand. One of mine came from a family that constantly fed her treats and she continually nipped me when she first arrived. This behaviour resolved itself very quickly when she realised her food never comes from my hands.

 

[Shilasdair]

Mine rarely get treats, I only tend to use them as a distraction if I need them during vet treatment, and that is more to help the vet. If they get them at other times, I put them in their feed buckets, never from my hand. One of mine came from a family that constantly fed her treats and she continually nipped me when she first arrived. This behaviour resolved itself very quickly when she realised her food never comes from my hands.

Yes - hand feeding a horse which is already liable to be nippy (colts and stallions in particular) is a recipe for disaster.
I think people need to watch how foals are taught manners by their dams, and other older herd members - there's a bit of mild violence involved there.

 

[stormox]

Stop giving treats. Immediately. A horse doesnt see it as you giving him a treat- he sees it as him taking food from you.
There is also a difference between a reward and a bribe, but in your pony's circumstances - no treats.
Connemaras are notoriously greedy bullies over food with other horses in the field anyway - they are feral ponies bred to survive on the poor lands of Irelands west coast.

 

[Shilasdair]

Stop giving treats. Immediately. A horse doesnt see it as you giving him a treat- he sees it as him taking food from you.
There is also a difference between a reward and a bribe, but in your pony's circumstances - no treats.
Connemaras are notoriously greedy bullies over food with other horses in the field anyway - they are feral ponies bred to survive on the poor lands of Irelands west coast.

It's actually a dominance thing - if he can take food from you, he's higher up in the hierarchy so can put you in your place by biting/kicking or threatening to do so.
The human has to be the most dominant horse in the hierarchy, who owns all the food.
You don't have to kick/bite or physically punish your animals, but they have to believe that you could, and that you are their leader.

 

[HashRouge]

I tried no carrots for his in hand walking over poles and I got a lot of foot stamping disgust!

I understand why you want to give him treats, but I do think the above illustrates why your approach isn't working. He would have learnt to walk over poles perfectly well without any treats being used, but he now associates going over poles with getting a treat and expects one immediately afterwards. He is now behaving badly after doing what you ask, because he expects a treat. Try using verbal praise and patting him instead and, as others have said, stop giving any treats at all. I wouldn't make any exceptions with a horse that has started biting. Look at it this way - you think you are being nice by giving him treats and are teaching him to behave, but you have actually taught him to behave badly!

If he bites again, raise your voice (a short, sharp NO is good) and send him away from you immediately by making yourself as big as possible (I tend to clap loudly and wave my arms). He needs to know that you are in charge and that he must leave your space immediately. You can then quieten your body language and allow him back into your space, but hopefully he will start to get the idea that you are the boss and he can't bully you.

 

[KEK]

Thanks for everyone's thoughts, I appreciate them.
I'm struggling as this is so very different to training the dogs, the dominance theory has well and truly been debunked,and they get rewarded (Not bribed ..or even generally lured) for all the training we do. They perform very well, however they are not going round biting me or behaving badly !
I will stop all treats for now, clearly I am going to have to rethink and become more educated with horses . I don't want to spoil him, he is a nice pony.

 

[DabDab]

Thanks for everyone's thoughts, I appreciate them.
I'm struggling as this is so very different to training the dogs, the dominance theory has well and truly been debunked,and they get rewarded (Not bribed ..or even generally lured) for all the training we do. They perform very well, however they are not going round biting me or behaving badly !
I will stop all treats for now, clearly I am going to have to rethink and become more educated with horses . I don't want to spoil him, he is a nice pony.

I mean, it's been debunked in horses too, but it still makes for a good story . Good luck with your lad, he is a lovely looking little horse. I'm sure it won't take you long to refocus your dog training skills onto horses

 

[Dyllymoo]

so... I haven't read all of the comments but I started giving J treats from my hand for touching things he was worried about and if he did a good job at something (feet up etc.) and if he had done well under saddle, carrot stretches etc.

But he started getting bitey, whether I was on him, next to him, in the field. He would try to nibble my hands, my coat, until one day he tried to take a chunk (I mean a chunk) out of my arm because I wasn't giving any sweets. I stopped giving him treats for everything and the treats he does get he gets from his feed bucket now. The biting practically stopped overnight. If he did try and mug me I would poke his nose with my finger and then get him to step back out of my space. He learnt very quickly that that would get him further away from me then if he just stood nicely.

As for dinner times, I taught him from the moment I had him he had to take at least 2 steps back from the door when I approach with his food bucket. I put the food in and then he is allowed to come forward. I don't really "faff" with him when he is eating but I do give him a pat and leave him too it (I think I would be able to change his rug etc. but I don't feel the need to as I would hate someone faffing with me when I'm eating my teeny tiny handful of chaff!).

J also now follows me around the arena in a type of join up I guess without any sweets given. he chooses to be with me. We also only do carrot stretches once every couple of weeks as he just gets over the top with trying to eat the carrot! I then have to deal with about a week post stretches of him stretching without me asking and flapping his lips waiting for the golden carrot that never comes!

 

[Leandy]

Don't give treats at all for the moment. Do not use them routinely ever. Discipline instantly for biting. It is unacceptable behaviour. He will stop once he gets the message which should be very quickly if you are clear. Take back control, don't create a monster!!

 

[Michen]

Ooooh no definitely not. Boggle gets more treats now out of pity for being on box rest but still hardly anything and I chuck them in his manger mostly rather than hand feed.

Also, maybe not a popular opinion, but when Bog has ever nipped me for whatever reason (aka at the moment on his walks he started to get a bit nippy and frustrated) he’s got a decent whack for it. Including on his nose if the timing is right, exactly when teeth make any contact (and no he’s not remotely head shy!).

 

[Caol Ila]

I mean, it's been debunked in horses too, but it still makes for a good story . Good luck with your lad, he is a lovely looking little horse. I'm sure it won't take you long to refocus your dog training skills onto horses

The theory that herds have a strict, top-down hierarchy and one horse is 'in charge' has been debunked. Equine social relationships have been found to be much more fluid than that. And aggression alone does not necessarily equal dominance/leadership. Keen observers of domestic herds have observed that less aggressive animals will get out of the way of an aggressive one, but they often don't choose to follow it or hang out with it. On that note, what humans see as 'dominance' and aggression in domestic herds may actually be resource guarding. More aggressive individuals will chase less aggressive ones from piles of hay, water, a gate, physical space, humans.... Any resource they feel is valuable and in limited supply (from the perspective of the horse). Your Connie, OP, probably sees the treats as a resource he wants and when you give him one, he is 'chasing' you from the treat. Hence getting nippy and escalating the aggression.

Other than stallions fighting to breed mares, there is comparatively little aggression amongst wild/feral herds as compared to domestic ones. Horses with unlimited space to roam and graze don't tend to use much violence, but those also tend to be family groups, whereas domestic horses are a bunch of random individuals, thrown together because their owners happen to be at the same yard, and rarely do they have thousands of acres of wander.

Horses respond best to firm but fair treatment from humans and clear boundaries. The natural horsemanship theory that we must be the 'dominant' horse has been debunked. The horse knows we are not horses. Thank God for that. They are domesticated -- they have been bred for thousands of years to be easily trainable and get on with us. My horse would happily kick the crap out of any horse who pissed her off, but she would not so much as look askance at a human or threaten to raise a hoof against one.

 

[Shilasdair]

Also, maybe not a popular opinion, but when Bog has ever nipped me for whatever reason (aka at the moment on his walks he started to get a bit nippy and frustrated) he’s got a decent whack for it. Including on his nose if the timing is right, exactly when teeth make any contact (and no he’s not remotely head shy!).

I find that horses can easily avoid me slapping their muzzles by, well, not biting me.
Which is kind of the point.

 

[abb123]

Sorry. I am in the no treat camp too. Even my sweetest mare will bite if treated often.

Horses are not dogs. They interact socially very differently. Dogs have a much more hierarchical approach to food and understand that you are giving them the treat. Horses just don't get it in the same way and need a much different approach to rewarding desired behaviour.

 

[Orangehorse]

I tried treats for some training once and it was a total disaster, as the horse was grabbing for the treat. Now, my timing was probably out, so I blame myself not the horse, but I stopped and the bad behaviour stopped.

 

[Littlebear]

Mine are not head shy it is a multitide of others that are. I treat mine as horses always have so yes it is a form of natural horsemanship the emphasis being horsemanship. I have never cultishly followed any guru but do listen and learn from any source. Violence is never the answer
Not quite sure how slapping can be done right or wrong to be honest it is still slapping

In all fairness i watched a very well known natural horsemanship trainers demo not too long ago, he had a youngster that tried to nip him a few times - it quickly got a shoulder in its gob - not overly aggressive or ott but he did what needed to be done to tell it NO and as much as i was there a bit apprehensively i respected that, no pussyfooting about but it was never overly done - just enough to make the horse realise it wasn't something that would be tolerated.
He also made a big point of not overly fussing /rewarding / treating the horse etc unless it really did get the grasp of something and made the effort, at the time i remember thinking jesus this is a waste of my time and is all just obvious stuff we all do every day but actually i think op this would have helped in your situation as a reminder to keep things completely black and white.
I have one horse i have to deal with (out of a total of 14 inc youngsters) that has the very occasional inclination to nip and has bitten the owner a few times, if she tries it i grab the skin on the chest and pinch it hard, you will never see a horse back up and away quicker than doing that and then there is no more question of it. I am not sure i would slap a horse in the face, haven't found the need in the last 30 odd years but i am sure given the right situation for safety reasons if one grabbed me with its teeth i would not be questioning to do it!

 

[Leo Walker]

If you still want to use treats as a reward, I'd suggest using something with lower value. Sometimes, the treat itself is so exciting that it overwhelms the behavioural training. I can't use a Likit as a reward treat with Blue, because she gets so excited by the prospect of all that revolting sugar that she stops paying attention to the clicker. Equally, I can't use just a handful of chaff, because that's too boring to count as a treat. You need to find a balancing point.

It's not clear from your post, but I'd also suggest clicker training, rather than general, "You did something good," treating. The way horses' memories work, it's hard for them to associate, "I stood still for mounting," with, "I got given a treat!" without a definite marker for, "This is the desired behaviour." As far as he's concerned, he just sometimes gets given treats and sometimes doesn't.

I still give Blue random, non-training treats, but I've taught her that she has to look away to get a treat because she was starting to mug people. Now, her version of mugging is to repeatedly look away! (She doesn't get a treat every time she asks for one, but she has to look away in order to be given a treat.) It may be worth trying to teach your pony something like that - a way to say, "Hey, I want a treat!" that doesn't involve teeth.

For putting his feed in, teach him to back up when you enter the stable.

This! The first thing I teach a pushy potentially nippy pony is face away. Bobbie begs by turning her face away from you. I still do not hand out treats willy billy. She has to work for them. We have a Nothing In Life Is Free policy!

 

[KittenInTheTree]

At that age, he'll also be teething. I don't miss that age.

 

[Shilasdair]

In all fairness i watched a very well known natural horsemanship trainers demo not too long ago, he had a youngster that tried to nip him a few times - it quickly got a shoulder in its gob - not overly aggressive or ott but he did what needed to be done to tell it NO and as much as i was there a bit apprehensively i respected that, no pussyfooting about but it was never overly done - just enough to make the horse realise it wasn't something that would be tolerated.
He also made a big point of not overly fussing /rewarding / treating the horse etc unless it really did get the grasp of something and made the effort, at the time i remember thinking jesus this is a waste of my time and is all just obvious stuff we all do every day but actually i think op this would have helped in your situation as a reminder to keep things completely black and white.
I have one horse i have to deal with (out of a total of 14 inc youngsters) that has the very occasional inclination to nip and has bitten the owner a few times, if she tries it i grab the skin on the chest and pinch it hard, you will never see a horse back up and away quicker than doing that and then there is no more question of it. I am not sure i would slap a horse in the face, haven't found the need in the last 30 odd years but i am sure given the right situation for safety reasons if one grabbed me with its teeth i would not be questioning to do it!

Personally I think a slap is far kinder than an elbow - a slap really is to shock and surprise the biter, an elbow could really hurt.
I worked with horses for decades and think I slapped about 3 horses...I'm not a serial horse slapper.
Generally horses are pretty good at reading people, and they can tell if you like them, and have their best interests at heart, so seldom play up.

 

[ycbm]

If I had £1 for every horse who has been ruined, and allowed to become dangerous by well-meaning 'natural horsemanship' training, I'd be a very rich person.

Horses need clear boundaries - if you watch mares, they discipline their foals instantly. I may get flamed for this, but if a horse bites, I slap its muzzle. If a horse goes to kick me, it gets a slap and verbally warned, too. The horse would be in no doubt it had done wrong.

On the other hand, I praise mine verbally, I give them treats (mints, carrots and apples), I scratch their itches, I have a good relationship with them - and they are happy enough because they are clear about what they can and can't do.

No flaming here.

I've had three Shetlands.

They all bit me.

Once.

.

 

[Lois Lame]

An elbow in the muzzle doesn't sound at all nice.

A slap with the hand, as quick as a flash, at the muzzle is what I would use. I've never known this to make a horse head shy.

 

[cornbrodolly]

One question the OP asks is why the dog training methods arent working for horses. They are two very different species for a start!
IMHO- and I think this would be the same for wild or domesticated : the bitch might bring food for a reward to her pups , or at least have control over the food source. Food had to be hunted and caught for the wild dogs and similar carnivores.
This isnt going to happen with a horse; the foals mostly find their own food without it being 'given' by mum .
FWIW, I dont treat dogs either! Never 'treat' horses - why on earth would I want to? That a horse 'needs ' a treat is mostly marketing ploys by companies wanting our £ in their pockets.
It hasnt anything to do with N H , which when done PROPERLY is just sound horsemanship. I dont accept clicker training etc to even be NH , and I dont see the point in it.