pony kicking at fallen rider - how would you handle it?

timefort

timefort

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I'm at home feeling sorry for myself so I thought I'd share something I witnessed recently which has been playing on my mind.

The other day I was watching a lady having a "jumping" lesson on her pony. Said pony is still green and very excitable and the lesson basically consisted of trying to get the pony to realise that poles are not tremendously exciting and there is no real need to bronc and buck at the mere thought of going near them - the aim was to get him quietly walking and then trotting over a series of four poles. After achieving a quiet trot over the poles without tanking off, the last pole was raised into a small cross, no more than 6" off the ground. Pony cleared this as though it was 6foot and the owner slipped out of the side door. While she was on the floor the pony then charged over to her, reversed and twice tried to double barrel her. She was only saved by the instructor getting between them. Pony continued to canter round and was finally caught with much bribing, at which point the owner then grabbed him, kicked him hard in the belly a couple of times (at least hard enough to make him flinch) before remounting.

After all the rambling, my question is do you think this was appropriate? Or perhaps, what (if any) discipline should have been used? What suggestions would you have to prevent this behaviour happening again?

For my twopence worth, enough time had passed between pony kicking out and being caught that all the owner's discipline did was reinforce that being caught isn't great (a boot in the belly from the ground is also not the sort of reprimand I'd use but that's a different issue). But, would you just ignore this behaviour? I can understand why the owner wanted to reprimand him as it could have caused her serious injury. The only thing I could think of in terms of avoiding this situation in future is for her to try and build up a better relationship with the pony - but that's very much a long term thing. Other opinions?

Also as a disclaimer, I know the pony fairly well and it is generally rather excitable and to the best of my knowledge its up-to-date with back /tack /teeth checks.
 
I think that, by the sounds of it, there was a too long gap between the pony kicking out, and the owner telling it off, so the pony would be more likely associate being caught with being kicked. I think a better way of reprimanding the pony (if the owner was so intent on punishing the pony), would have been for the instructor to kick the pony when they tried to kick the owner, as then you have more of a situation a horse is used to. What I mean, is in the field, if the one of the horses tried to kick the lead horse, the lead horse would automatically kick the horse, not wait for 5 minutes etc.

Hope this made sense and wasn't too rambling :p
 
I would think that the reason that the pony ran over and tried to double barrel her is because he's been treated like this in the past! That is not normal behaviour of a pony that is treated fairly and consistently. I fall off mine regularly and she takes great pains to NOT tread on me as I'm coming in to land and then stands quietly beside me. Maybe because I don't boot her in the guts.

So of course I think it is inappropriate and that woman shouldn't own a pet cuddly toy let alone a pony.
 
I agree with you OP that it was far too late to administer any kind of discipline by that time. And to compound the matter, the pony had been given treats when it was caught. What on earth is the pony meant to make of that?
Without seeing exactly what happened it is difficult to say what I would have done but I think that the instructor was best placed to administer punishment for kicking at the rider but missed the opportunity.
 
Al had a horse who took to broncing until Al gave up with the limpet impression and flew off. This was was all well and good, until she started to pounce at her once Al was on the floor. Mare was never unduly punished (never hit once the deed was done, just tried to go back and reassert some authority by repeating the question until she gave in!). Mare went back within a week of starting this behaviour- it was about dominance, and she wanted it. No other pony/ horse has had this attitude- been all about desperately not landing on her.

ETA: no one else has ridden this mare long term since then. She was kept in the lap of luxury, with correct feed, plentiful turnout, company, correctly fitted tack and regular physio sessions. She just decided not to play anymore, and that was that.
 
I agree it was too late to bother 'reprimanding' the pony, and no use to kick him once he has been caught. She had obviously lost her temper, which can happen to the best of us, and is probably well aware that her actions were not at all logical.

I don't agree that the pony is obviously not treated fairly, as I have an excitable pony, and he will often try to kick out while excited - usually in the field when something is happening. He constantly challanges boundries and is agreesive to my other ponies. His behaviour has nothing to do with my treatment of him - his behaviour has improved since I've had him (slowly)

Not sure what on earth you could do about this ponies behaviour - with my boy, i would probably have lunged him vigorously before the lesson! Also, I tend to give up while I am ahead so would probably have stopped at the calm walk and trot over poles, but this may be becuase I'm a wimp....:p
 
The reason this has played on my mind is that I've been in a similar situation before. I mounted a horse who while I was adjusting my stirrups leapt in the air, bucked and bolted towards a five bar gate. He slammed into the gate and shot left, I slammed into the gate and slithered down it, winded and with (as it turned out) broken ribs. Fortunately the horse's owner watched this happen and managed to reach over, grab me and haul me out as the horse had turned round and was charging back towards the gate. Whether the horse was charging me (he had absolutely zero respect for anyone's space) or just back to the gate I'll never know. I was sure I should have disciplined him, but couldn't think how since by the time I'd managed to get air back into my lungs it was far to late, the only reprimand I could think of was to get back on board and make sure it didn't happen again (just as well it didn't I'm not sure my ribs could have coped with meeting that gate twice in the same day!:eek:).

I should point out that every other horse/pony I've fallen off of, including those that have deliberately been trying to nap and get out of work (rather than me sliding out of the side door) have always gone out of their way to not squash me. That makes it sound like I have a hobby of falling off different horses - I do stay on sometimes too :D

I see what you're saying about horses in the field /wild. I think the instructor's first priority was to get pony out of the way, and I'm not sure he approved of the owner's reprimand - although I wasn't close enough to hear if words were exchanged.

Lolo - the horse who took a liking to my ribs is also now a lawnmower. He started collecting ribs, and after mine (the most persistent) the owners decided enough was enough.
 
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My most fav and best mare I ever had bronced daily she was a Tb she threw me off on trying her and in hindsight I was mad to take her on:(
She bronced me off then continued to bronc regardless of if I was in way or not:( this went on for 18 months my confidence was ripped to pieces I had other experienced people who she dine the same too :(
I was on the verge of PTs with her an was riding and she done her usual had me off and carried on broncing with me in the way:(
I was luckily winded and when I caught my breath I and am not proud of it and hate that I done it went over to her and beat the crap out of her :(
It had been about 5 minutes since she threw me off but do you know what and am not advocating beating I know I was totally out of order but thT mare went from 18 months of broncing me off then trying to het me while on floor to from that day not once done it to me and was a mare that looked out for me whole riding and was a complete sweetie I had ended up having a bond I've never had before or since :)
Although I took her to a big equestrian college with me and explained her past who thy said was fine as it was a few years since she last bronced done it to one of the students :(
As I said am not advocating it and quite ashamed that I let my temper take over but wether it worked or was a coincidence I don't know
 
I totally agree, after that amount of time punishing the pony achieves nothing apart from scaring it because it doesn't know what it's done to deserve that. And kicking it in the first place is totally out of order, this woman doesn't sound like she deserves him if that's what she does to discipline her horse!
 
9tails said:
I would think that the reason that the pony ran over and tried to double barrel her is because he's been treated like this in the past! That is not normal behaviour of a pony that is treated fairly and consistently. I fall off mine regularly and she takes great pains to NOT tread on me as I'm coming in to land and then stands quietly beside me. Maybe because I don't boot her in the guts.

So of course I think it is inappropriate and that woman shouldn't own a pet cuddly toy let alone a pony.
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I agree with this. It is highly unusual behaviour and indicates that the pony clearly hates and fears his owner. Perhaps hoping to finish her off so that he doesn't have to endure her treatment any longer. I also think that it indicates that the pony is in some discomfort jumping and being ridden in general. Two back people and a vet missed my horses kissing spines. All passing him as strong with no problems at all through his back. In fact he has one of the worse cases of kissing spine the vet has ever seen.
 
I am going to take a different direction on this.

I agree, that the 'punishment' was both inappropriate and much too late. In a herd, punishment is instant, and once it is done, that is it.

I have a gelding who likes to play and gets excited when we jump. Initially he will throw in a few fly bucks, just out of pure pleasure. He also likes to rear and buck when he is playing with his field mate, and they will run around throwing 'mock' heels at each other.

It could be that the green youngster completely misread the situation, after all, this was the first time he had been jumped, and for all he knew it was normal for his rider to dismount. His fly bucks could just have been a sort of "come on! Let's do more of that, it was fun!", as this is just the sort of thing foals and youngsters do with one another.

As for the rider losing her temper, that is unforgivable.
 
NeilM said:
I am going to take a different direction on this.

I agree, that the 'punishment' was both inappropriate and much too late. In a herd, punishment is instant, and once it is done, that is it.

I have a gelding who likes to play and gets excited when we jump. Initially he will throw in a few fly bucks, just out of pure pleasure. He also likes to rear and buck when he is playing with his field mate, and they will run around throwing 'mock' heels at each other.

It could be that the green youngster completely misread the situation, after all, this was the first time he had been jumped, and for all he knew it was normal for his rider to dismount. His fly bucks could just have been a sort of "come on! Let's do more of that, it was fun!", as this is just the sort of thing foals and youngsters do with one another.

As for the rider losing her temper, that is unforgivable.
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Good point and a different way of looking at it. Horses will indeed back up to one another in play, although they usually do their best not to make contact. Usually, if a horse means it he will make contact.
 
Wagtail said:
Good point and a different way of looking at it. Horses will indeed back up to one another in play, although they usually do their best not to make contact. Usually, if a horse means it he will make contact.
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This is interesting, and I hadn't even thought of it as play (honestly my first thoughts were pain or dominance). However, he's actually quite a sweetie rather than a dominant pony so it's possible. Incidentally, it's not the first time he's jumped (and I've seen him go higher than the 6" crosspole), but he is very excitable with fly bucks and stray kicks ending up all over the place if something out of the ordinary happens, which I guess could be interpreted as "wooo look at me."

So, my next interesting thought - how do you reprimand play? I'm guessing more groundwork so horse/pony learns what is, and more importantly, isn't, acceptable.
 
timefort said:
So, my next interesting thought - how do you reprimand play? I'm guessing more groundwork so horse/pony learns what is, and more importantly, isn't, acceptable.
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My question would be; why would you want to reprimand play?

In reality, I think each equine needs to be judged as an individual. I have been riding my pony for four years now and know him extremely well. When we do something 'exciting' I may verbally chastise him, or even stop him if he is getting over excited (rather like a small child getting a bit OTT), but on other occasions I just let him blow off steam a bit, before we concentrate on the job in hand.

As an example: The first time I got the jumps out this spring, he watched me laying out a little course and as soon as I got on he was 'live'.We took the first little cavaletti waaay too fast and then he proceeded to fly buck and bronc up the field, with me calling him any number of silly b*ggers and my instructor / OH nearly wetting herself laughing at the pair of us. When he stopped broncing, I sat quietly and gave him a few minutes to calm down, and we carried on jumping with no further repetition.

Sometimes you just have to let them play for a minute or two, before the real work begins.

I DO like riding a pony, not sure I'd be quite so calm on something 17.2hh :D
 
Mmmm well I'm gonna be shot down in flames here; firstly lets look at the "punishment" issue, i.e. kicking pony in ribs. If you look at herd behaviour, this is something that does happen in a herd situation, if one horse is out of line then one of the others or the lead horse, will show its heels at it, THEN if it really doesn't get the message then bamm! it gets it, usually in the stomach. So basically for one horse to kick another is natural herd behaviour.

Having said that, the "punishment" in this case seems to have been too late to have given the pony the message. But IF the little b@gger tramples its rider and kicks out at the rider once on the ground, then FFS the vicious little s@d needs teaching a blimmin lesson!!! Sorry, but you can't let it get away with that sort of behaviour, no way.

The other solution, if it was mine that did this, would be to ring kennels. I personally wouldn't pass on a problem like this to anyone else; and if loaning it to anyone I'd have to tell them what it had done.

I await being shot down in flames ......... but having had one that deliberately kicked out at me and got me in the stomach - simply coz I asked it to do something and it didn't want to, I don't have much truck with horses who kick out at their riders deliberately for any reason - and to do it once they're on the ground is not forgivable IMO. You can't argue about it, this is just NASTY. And if mine had done it then yes I'd be seriously considering the kennels option. The next person it did it to might be a child. You have to think of that.
 
I would never shoot anyone down in flames, I would much prefer and honest exchange of knowledge, views and experience. My view was merely an alternative based on my pony and others that I have ridden and seen playing.

Regarding the person kicking her horse; I didn't say I disagreed with the method of punishment, just the timing.

As for the horse kicking out, it is not possible to make a blanket judgement either way without seeing the pony in question. MOST horses won't kick without good reason, although we've all come across the nasty bstard that is the exception.
 
I don't see a problem with kicking it either, I agree, it's what it would get in the herd, if it happened to me I would want to whack it hard on it's backside with a plank, and bloody sting, so it realizes it's totally unacceptable behaviour, the big problem is the amount of time that passed, the pony will have associated being caught with being kicked, not going to be much help when you want to fetch it in, can't remember the specific time, but I think you have 2 to 4 seconds or something close for the the horse to associate it's action with reward or punishment.
 
vikkiandmonica said:
What I mean, is in the field, if the one of the horses tried to kick the lead horse, the lead horse would automatically kick the horse, not wait for 5 minutes etc.
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I think what you say would apply whatever horse was kicked! It would be the same if the "lead" (assume you mean dominant) horse kicked out at a subordinate, who would be likely to respond by kicking back especially if there was no way to avoid the more dominant horse in the first place. The crucial point is the response would be near instant - in stark contrast to the owner's lamentable attempt at correction described above.
 
Different situation i know but, my laid back lab bitch on having puppies became very aggresive to other dogs innocently passing our gate. She would go at them is such a way that if she could have got hold of them blood would undoubltably been spilt.

I tried everything, putting her on her back, yelling at her etc etc.

One day I was at the gate with lead in hand ready to put on and take her for a walk. She flew at a passing dog and really meant business through the gate. I, withou thought gave her a big wallop with the lead across her ribs. feel bad about it to this day, never raised a hand to her before. She has never ever attacked or tried to from that day to this.

I am not advocating violance but sometimes it does seem to work.

Jane
 
Not appropriate to kick any equine in the guts because its misbehaved - EVER! I'd have happily kicked the rider if I'd seen this done in a lesson of mine. I've asked riders to leave a class for less!

Was rather dumb of the instructor to put a fence up considering the earlier behaviour. The pony is obviously stressed.

It is not normal for any horse to reverse and try to kick out at a rider. Some may kick out in self defence as the rider flies past (flight/fight response) - this is why it is so important to desensetise the horse to things flapping around the hind legs.
 
I agree that it sounds like too much time had passed between the pony kicking out & the punishment it received - the way I see it, it's just going to resent being caught now, as when it gets caught, it gets beaten, if that makes sense? If any action was going to be taken against it kicking out at the rider, it should have been the instructer giving it a hard slap/kick on the bum to send it off (as a horse would in the wild), but she was probably just concerned about getting it away from the rider.
I don't think the horse should have been bribed at all to be caught - sounds like it would be a very confused little pony after the lesson! Given treats to be caught and then kicked in the belly when it did what they wanted.
I don't think kicking it in the stomach after that much time had passed was a reasonable or justifiable thing to do, but the rider had probably just lost her temper and hopefully regrets what she did.
If i had been in the situation i probably would have put the jump at the end down, put everything back to the poles that the pony was confident with, do them once or twice to end on a good note and then end the lesson, it sounds like it was getting stressy and the cross pole was probably just a step too far.
 
Hmmm, difficult! I had one horse come to me via a job who was known for being very difficult, he was unbroken and a real kicker even when handling. I managed somehow to back him and was riding him in the school one day when he went nuts and bronced till he threw me, then proceeded to attack me as I was on the floor. Thankfully I had balled up small and a friend chased him off. He was a very smart coloured pony and we believe abused by travellers prior to this. Sadly for him he then had a one way ticket to the knacker as this is down right dangerous and I'm afraid after doing this there is no way I was going to risk myself for a horse, there are plenty of good ones!!! I am very much of the mindset that if they kick me I boot 'em straight back, kicking out should never be tolerated and even lifting a leg they will be reprimanded. With most young horses it takes only one lesson that kicking out is not on and then they learn some manners. While I agree she may have been a little late in the punishment, I think it fits the crime. Horses in the wild will go for each other in this region and give a lot more clout than a person could ever give a horse.
 
The owner sounds like a horrible person who needs reporting and i would say that if i had seen that i would have had to have told her and i would have reported her.

There is never an excuse to abuse animals. This is abuse.

If you feel you have to 'punish' bad behaviour you do it at the time of the misdemeanour's not leaving it some time.

Truly disgusting - no wonder we have so many screwed up animals who will end up PTS because the humans cant/ wont respect the animals. They pay the price with their lives, when its the humans that have ruined them in the first place. Poor Horse.
 
All that said was " you are horrid" and he will not know what he was punished for.

Scarey but not an unusual response,it would have been scarey for him ax well to see your friend in the floor..

I had a pony that came back at me when I fell off, I was 10!!! My parents were quite mad, but just spending time with doing NOTHING with him, just taking and walking and asking nothing of him, worked xx

Hope the same happens with you x
 
Firstly, I'm amazed anyone would behave so viciously to the pony once the incident was over with. I could (almost) forgive an instant retaliation, but to be given time to 'cool down' while the pony was caught and still react like that is, IMHO, unforgivably spiteful and shows a basic lack of empathy.

Secondly, I'm even more amazed that the rider would behave this way in front of an instructor, and that the instructor would tolerate it! I'm afraid that, had I been the instructor, I might have pointed out that abuse would not be tolerated in my lessons and this particular jockey might want to seek tuition elsewhere.

I'm by no means a bleeding heart liberal, and I'm not against physically reprimanding horses which behave in a dangerous way, but this would be beyond the pale for me. As someone else said, novice rider + novice pony = disaster!
 
9tails said:
I would think that the reason that the pony ran over and tried to double barrel her is because he's been treated like this in the past! That is not normal behaviour of a pony that is treated fairly and consistently. I fall off mine regularly and she takes great pains to NOT tread on me as I'm coming in to land and then stands quietly beside me. Maybe because I don't boot her in the guts.

So of course I think it is inappropriate and that woman shouldn't own a pet cuddly toy let alone a pony.
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Ditto this. Anyone who would wantonly kick a pony in the guts likely is cruel frequently, so the pony probably hates her quite deservedly!
 
How to handle it in future - practise falling off (well, faking it!). Get on pony, ride around, stand, get off and immediately crouch down. Give pony a treat (I'm not massively into giving treats, but I also don't want my head kicked in). Do this a couple of times every time it's ridden, make it sloppier and quicker as the pony accepts it, you're aiming to do this in walk (and faster I suppose, if you can), to get down low, and have the pony keep his head towards you because he's looking for a treat. Got to be worth a try - and as adapted from an old moor womans way of training. She rides on Dartmoor to check her sheep, and needs to know that if she comes off the pony won't leave her side - bribes them with a ginger nut biscuit!
 
I've seen this happen twice, within half an hour of each other, same horse, out hunting. First time the horse (4yrs, first season out) threw in a buck in canter and aimed a kick as the rider fell, then struck out again when she was trying to get up. We caught the animal, she got back on, it happened again. This time he aimed vicious double barrels at her as she laid on the floor screaming, as she had landed with her leg twisted under her and thought she had broken it. We jumped off to help, caught the horse, phoned 999 (and took her boot off for her: Us-"no, it needs to stay on, it will keep the break stable until ambulance gets here", Her-"no no! These are new boots! Take it off please, or the paramedics will CUT it off! They cost £200!". Lol) etc., and an old chap who was foot following offered her this advice while we were waiting - "get your husband to come and pick the bl**dy beast up in the box, and take it to the kennels. Its all he's good for now."
Hmmm
 
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