Pony learnt a new trick....schooling ideas needed (Long sorry)

[Sit_Up]

Ok after disasterous dressage at weekend (see comp board if you want a laugh) pony has now learnt that she can put her head down and p*ss off with me at will!

I could really do with some schooling ideas.

Looking at the video of the dressage with my instructor we have different ideas about what a good outline is.

I have been feeling that she is very on the forehand for a while but been assured that she is carrying herself OK (my back disagrees). No mirrors and I have been out of riding for a while and just getting back into the swing, so doubted what I was feeling. Just had lots of her telling me it was becuase I am not sitting properly and been working on myself (causing much pain in muscles but put this down to being older).

Trouble is that its my sisters horse and no other instructirs are allowed on the yard. My sister is too scared to do anything more than walk (long story), so I dont really get to see the pony work.

Walk is quite good, trot is adequate most of the time, just need to work on the balanace between being active and plowing a furrow. Have been working on transistions and turns. These have improved and we get quite good downwards and can get reasonable direct-halt trot/ walk-canter. Will use some more pole work as that also helps. I am thinking that some lungeing will help me to see how she is going.

Main problem is when she has had enough she just leans and then is gone. She goes from a light contact to me supporting her whole body weight in a couple of strides. It feels a bit like a small pony and I just want to put a daisy rein on her!!! Instructor is blaming my position, but I physically cannot stay on the saddle when she does it, let alone keep seat bones on.

I have tried her in a french link (she started leaning, changed to copper roller (made her mouth and head unsteady), onto loose ring jointed snaffle, worked better for about 3 weeks. I want something to bring her head up!! Just so that I can get the leg on and make her go forward, rather than rush and plow her nose further into the ground.

So any ideas bitting, schooling exercises? Might have to find someone I can go to for a lesson as have lost all confidence in the girl that has been teaching me. I know that position plays a large part, but this pony knows how to shift me out of the saddle and take advantage and shouting at me to sit my bum in the saddle at that poitn is not helping.

Thanks for you patience people. I just hope this makes some sense!!!

 

[xnaughtybutnicex]

You could try a waterford snaffle and when schooling try and keep her busy all the time so she has less time to think about running off with you. I would also lunge for 10/15 mins before you get on to get a bit of the fizz out of her.

 

[helenhorse]

what i found really helped was a happy mouth dutch gag with a lozenge (roller in the middle). It worked a treat for my hot TB!!when she starts to lean do alot of active transitions and 10 meter circle always work her body so that she doesnt feel the need to concentrate on leaning.

 

[Libbyn1982]

B does this to me sometimes - well he throws his shoulder in downward transitions and tips me forward so he just runs instead of coming back to me in a controlled fashion! I was also out of practise when I first started riding him and my legs were so weak, I have found now that it is getting easier as my lower legs are much more sucure and I have more strength here is stop my tipping forward. I find it eaier when I school in a Waterford and every so often I'll school in draw reins and it does make him a bit lighter. I thought as well that gags were supposed to raise the head? Maybe look at a gag with waterford mouthpiece to stop the leaning on the hand???
Also if you say this is when the pony gets bored, do you have enough variation in the schooling work you do - is it all flat work or do you do some jump schooling and hacking as well.

 

[Rachmeister]

Your pony's behaviour might not be fizzyness, but due to the fact he doesnt want to work hard (or at all), bearing in mind what you say about your sister, and going in an outline is much harder for him than ploughing a furrow. It seems like he is just evading you and knows he can do it (at least for now).

My connie was very similar when I got him earlier this year. When he had enough of work he put his head down strongly and refused to listen, also speeded up. This behaviour has now virtually gone after 6 months of patient work.

He could barely trot a circle when we got him - he was used to straight lines only and had been used in a racing yard to accompany the young TBs up the gallops. A lot of the problem was caused by the fact that schooling was hard for him both mentally and physically I think and when it started to be too much effort he tried to evade by putting his head down and running off. I really noticed this in canter circles which were just awful to start with.

We have lunged him with a pessoa regularly to improve balance and circles and this has helped a lot - he needed to be sent forward into the contact in the pessoa. I have also put him in a softer bit not harder - he likes the feel of rubber so he has a jointed rubber snaffle. This helps prevent him getting even stronger if I am tempted to pull back when he leans. Please beware of putting a stronger bit in your pony's mouth, it may not be the right answer.

Also, I send him forward with my legs and tap him with the schooling whip when he suddenly loses the plot and leans, rather than pulling back on the reins. He now knows his little trick is not going to work. If he ran on too much I steered him straight into the school fence once or twice. That made him stop suddenly (he didn't obviously want to hurt himself or jump the fence so it was safe to do this). Also lots of circles, change of rein, transitions and keep schooling to short sessions eg 20 mins until the muscles and mental concentration are up to longer. I wouldn't bother with the walk to canter transition myself until he is much more established and balanced.

I hope this helps and good luck.

PS you did give me such a laugh on Monday that has made me want to help you if I can!

 

[Sal_E]

Do you think he's just getting tired with his new improved way of going perhaps? It sounds as if he goes well initially then starts to evade - I wonder if he can only hold himself for a while & then just falls on the forehand & runs off? If so, maybe it's just something you need to slowly build on - i.e. how much you're asking for.

Have you had his back done since you've been working him? I wonder if using himself differently could be causing him as much discomfort as you?

Personally, I'd take a firm approach to him running off (assuming above is all ok). I'd sharpely pull him right up to a halt, then ask again. I don't think it's a case of your position, but him learning to evade PULLING you into a poor position - viscious circle which he'll always win as he's stronger than you!

If he's falling onto the forehand before you feel he has a 'right' to feel tired, I'd pull him upwards & kick him on at the same time - hopefully you'd only have to do this crudely a few times & gradually becoming more subtle. So, think of a half halt being a whisper - initially scream the aids at him (don't use your voice to scream literally, LOL!), working towards a more dignified half halt (i.e. subtle aids at a whisper) - he should learn he just can't do that.

It really sounds like evasion but try to think about why he's evading first - fitness, understanding, discomfort etc before looking at differnet bits & firm approaches...

I agree that your instructor doesn't sound great!!

 

[BethH]

My boy can be similar, here go my suggestions for what they are worth, I wouldn't go for stronger bit initially, I would try some exercises in the school to get her off your hands, it seems to me you need to get her coming through from the back end so she is lighter in front and listening to your seat more, easier said than done I know, if she tanks you then throw your upper body weight back and then straight again in a sharp snap, that way your hands and weight kick in and it may seem heavy handed but she is being rude too, just remember to give with your hand quickly afterwards so she is rewarded for slowing.

Try starting with a 20 metre circle and gradually reducing, then increasing the size of the circle down to 5 metres if you can as she will really have to use her back legs and then when you increase the circle size ask for a couple of strides of leg yield on each side of the circle (imagine it is a square circle when you do this!!) It works especially well in trot and eventually she will have to slow down to balance.

Make sure your upper body is well back, even behind the vertical if necessary as this will encourage her forwards by using her back legs.

Try to change the speed within a pace, if you ask for trot slow it down to almost a walk and then push on again and then slow again, that should lighten her, on a 10 mtre circle try to slow and push on until you are able to get her to listen to the change in your seat withing 1/2 dozen paces.

Snap in and out of walk and trot. As soon as you get walk ask for trot, 6 paces of trot then walk, your hands may have to kick in but if she is anything like mine then she will fix so make sure you release the second after you take with your hands.

Get your instructor to work more on lateral moves like shoulder in, turn on the forehand etc etc, these all encourage a lighter front and more engagement behind.

You could introduce some poles as well to get her attention, 4 poles in a star leaving 10metre circle in middle and will be 20 metre circle outside, then work on using poles to guide you and start on the outside, then over the middle of the poles and then inside on a 10mertre circle, you can eventually get to do this in walk trot and canter.

Most of all quit whilst you're ahead, if she has been good for 20mins praise her and get off, make it fun not a chore for you both. Just some ideas for starters probably the same as mentioned above but may be worth a try

 

[xnaughtybutnicex]

Running on the forehand and bolting are different things. If she is unbalanced and rushing then it isn't really naughty and just needs some schooling but if bolting that is naughty and you need to get her out of it as soon as possible. Sorry to suggest it as your confidence seems to be a bit low but i wouldn't stop working her until she has had a good 5/10 mins schooling as you would like her to and then leave it at that. Just seems as if she is being naughty and doesn't want to do what you ask her to.

 

[Sit_Up]

Thanks for all of your replies, sorry had to go out.

By biting advice I do not want anything stronger, just wondered if anyone had suggestions for a head raising action.

She is not fizzy (unless we have an arguemnet) and generally tries really well. Her general way of going is a bit on the forehand (she stands croup high) but she is generally active behind. I just want to feel/see her wither up more infront of me. Edited to add ~ I was being a bit harsh on her earlier, neither of us are buit for dressage but she works well for her type.

Mostly when I ride I have a very light feeling through the rein and she is very responsive to seat aids we can stop from walk and trot and turn on a long rein or no contact. That is until she decides she has had enough for whatever reason (back tack and teeth all checked over the summer). I vary her schooling (poles, changes of rein and pace, paces within pace and some lateral work etc). We have restricted hacking but I have taken her out for jollys over the summer.

She will be working well then a switch flicks and its like she says enough and just tanks across the school. But its not head up and off, its head down and go!! She stops at the other end of the school (outside of dressage arena at the weekend) and you can be sure that I don't get off. (She has previously done this a couple of times with novices on top, so I do think that this is learnt behaviour in part).

Its not even that dangerous tanking off, I just have no control over speed (working canter type speed) but worst of all no control over direction. But I do know she will stop at the end. I just dont want to accept this as normal behaviour.

And its not every time, or every other time. I can get on one day and we could work for an hour and its lovely and then another day 10min in she has had enough (we may not even have got out of walk!). I just really dont want this to become a habit. I am worried that I could ruin a perfectly good little horse.

Thanks for the advice. Think I just need a sounding board. I have lost confidence in the instructor, think I will have to get people to video me more often so that I can make sure that what I feel is good or bad is what is happening.

 

[DuckToller]

I would definitely try another instructor even if you have to box and travel! Schooling should be fun for you as well as for the pony. Sounds like you are expected to carry the front end of the pony and like you, my back would not cope with that for long. Even if the pony is not fit and not ready to school for long in self-carriage, there should at least be some progression towards this. Some instructors are stuck in the middle ages, where pain was something you had to go through to progress. More enlightened instructors don't have that attitude - mine knows how much my back will take and tailors the exercises accordingly.

When pony takes a hold, have you tried just pulling on one rein? There is no way physically you can stop a determined, on the forehand pony from carting you, and the more this evasion succeeds, the more the pony will try whenever she has had enough. I can just picture her thelwell-like grin as she thinks, "Had enough of this, I'm off and there's nothing she can do about it!".

My friend had a welsh cob x that tanked off with her on rides, so she got her 20+ stone hubbie to go on hacks with her, then attached a lunge rein to horse and hubbie held on. Worked a treat, although don't think it's dressage legal

 

[DuckToller]

We posted at the same time, so just read your reply to other advice. Just a thought - how about a Dr Bristol, which is stronger than a lozenge, but not really awful. Or I would go for English gag, which does raise the head, but acts as a normal snaffle as long as pony behaves, which is rewarding good behaviour but gives you a fighting chance if pony is naughty.

 

[Sit_Up]

Thanks Llewelyn,

Hmm what is it about welsh x....stubborn maybe? Now just to convince my other half he needs to put on another 10 stone I am sure the judges form last weeks dressage wouldn't mind if he stood in the middle (they were very nice about it and crying with laughter).

Just need to find a way to get a bit of respect when this happens. She is so unlke this in every other respect (i.e. to handle) but she does look very pleased with herself afterwards.

 

[DuckToller]

Def think it sounds like a learnt behaviour which has worked rather well (from her point of view!) and so she quickly needs to find out that it doesn't work, so even though you don't want to overbit, I think you need to try something that will stop her pdq and then hopefully she will give that particular evasion up. Even if you only resort to something strong for a few weeks.

How about an English gag with two reins - ride on the snaffle, tie a knot in the gag reins, if she goes to tank off then grab knot and heave for all you are worth? For both your safety she has to learn it won't do. You could even ask judge with sense of humour if you could ride hc like that for a few times. Should only take a few heaves, hopefully.

 

[Sit_Up]

Thanks Llewelyn i will have a look at the english gag. Like the 2 reins idea.

I have convinced my sister that I should take her to yard where we competed last weekend for a lesson in the arena that they use. Just have to sort out transport and hope i can book a lesso with the instructors there (they are V good trainers..we could be a bit below what they are used to)

The instructor from the yard pony is kept at had a word with my sister today and said that I should ride with a twisted stirrup leather around her neck and use that to sit myself into the saddle more when she starts to take off. She also convinced my sister that the pressure from the twist would be enough to stop her. I dont think that that will be anywhere near strong enough.

TBH just a bit peed off with myself that I cant stop a 14.2 generally well mannered pony.