Posession - 9/10ths of the law!?

[Darkprincessh]

Hi all,

I need some help if possible... I have been trawling the net all night to find something that might help me, but am stumped.

At the yard I keep my horses, recently a woman was banned. She was told by the owner of the land that she could no longer come on to the yard because she is an alcoholic and takes class A drugs and was a liability to herself and the animals. She owns a beautiful mare who she didnt care for properly, even when she was allowed on the yard. The poor thing was left out all winter, no rugs or food and was so scared of the other horses due to her lack of confidence that she used to just hide under a tree and look terribly miserable all the time (not surprising really!)

Other residents took it upon themselves to bring her in for something to eat and shared their rugs with her, so she didnt have such a tough time of it, but she was definately not given all the care she needed.

As a result she was seriously underweight and had major behavioural and trust issues.

About 6 months ago, I contacted the owner of the mare and told her I was disgusted with how she had abandoned the poor animal, and what was she going to do about it. After a long conversation it was decided that I would take the horse on full loan and an agreement would be put in place.

I have cared for the horse and loved her the way she should be loved and cared for and she is now a fantastic mare. she rides beautifully (although is a bit giddy!) and although isnt back up to full weight, is more than getting there. She now holds her own in a field full of horses and I have bonded with her so much.

Problem is, the loan agreement was never produced/signed or even talked about again, unless I rang the Owner and asked her for it. "Yes yes, tomorrow, I promise" was always the answer.

I found out recently that the owner is considering uprooting the horse and moving her away despite the progress she has made and how brilliantly she is doing. I simply cant let it happen.

Is there anything in Animal wlefare law that states that as I have been caring for and providing for this animal, that after a certain amount of time she is legally mine? As there is no loan agreement in place, I am doing this because she is a beautiful animal and I couldnt watch her suffer any more. I have invested a lot of money into her, vets bills, feeds etc and although I know it isnt about the money, I do feel slighltly annoyed at this horrible woman!

Can any one help at all?

Thank you....

 

[Wagtail]

What a terrible dilemma! If you are convinced this woman would not care for the mare (if she has not cleaned up her act), then for the sake of the horse, I might be tempted to try anything, to keep her safe. If that means lying that you thought she had gifted you the animal. then I wouldn't blame you. Do you have the passport? Alternatively, could you agree to buy her? If not, I would draw up a huge bill for all the services food and rugs you have provided and present her with it. Keep the horse in lieu of payment. Not having a loan contract would actually be helpful here as you could not claim the expenses if you had an agreement in place. As it is, you could even charge your time as an hourly rate.

 

[Darkprincessh]

Thats a brilliant idea Wagtail.

I went into overdrive today drafting up a loan agreement, and then decided that actually, I was shooting myself in the foot!

That idea is definately going on the board for consideration!

And no, she wont look after the mare properly. She cant even take care of herself, so the poor animal doesnt stand a chance!

Thank you again!

 

[Darkprincessh]

Oh! And no, I dont have the passport... and as her house is being repossessed at the moment, I dont even know if she has it!

 

[YorksG]

There was no agreement in place for you to provide the animal with the things you did, so as far as I know, you have no right to bill this woman. If she had lent you her car would you consider that you had a right to it? While morally you may be in the right to deny this woman her horse, I doubt if legally you could do this. In fact if you hide the horse, move it etc, then I think you could be said to have stolen it!

 

[missyme10]

I dont think you've a leg to stand on to be honest, its her horse and she may do as she wishes with it.

I think you handled it all wrong in the beginning, considering the YO banning her, and the state of the horse, you could have backed her into a corner into signing the horse over.

You surely could never have trusted such a person?
Now the horse is decent, its worth money, and someone on drugs, needs money all the time.

At best, you may be able to buy the horse off her, and I suspect their will be no aknowledgement in the price as to your efforts.

Sorry, I know its not what you were hoping to hear, I sympathise with you totally as you clearly care about this mare and the owner sounds some piece of work who doesn't deserve to have any animal.

 

[Wagtail]

I would still bill her. It's worth a try. Let her take you to court about it. I doubt she has the wits about her to do that.

 

[YorksG]

Why would she bother taking the OP to court, with regard to the 'bill'? What is the difference, legally between the OP keeping the horse and all those we read about which are stolen while on loan? To encourage someone to keep a horse they have on loan, rather than return it when asked, is somewhat irresponsible IMO

 

[HilaryG]

I dont think you've a leg to stand on to be honest, its her horse and she may do as she wishes with it.

I think you handled it all wrong in the beginning, considering the YO banning her, and the state of the horse, you could have backed her into a corner into signing the horse over.

You surely could never have trusted such a person?
Now the horse is decent, its worth money, and someone on drugs, needs money all the time.

At best, you may be able to buy the horse off her, and I suspect their will be no aknowledgement in the price as to your efforts.

Sorry, I know its not what you were hoping to hear, I sympathise with you totally as you clearly care about this mare and the owner sounds some piece of work who doesn't deserve to have any animal.

I totally agree with the above. There is no such thing as possession is 9/10ths of the law!

The best you can hope is to agree a price to buy her and if she has the problems you mentions she will no doubt "snap your hand off".

Cruelty or neglect can only be proved by an expert at the time.

Unfortunately, she is entitled to remove the mare at any time.

 

[Darkprincessh]

There was no agreement in place for you to provide the animal with the things you did, so as far as I know, you have no right to bill this woman. If she had lent you her car would you consider that you had a right to it? While morally you may be in the right to deny this woman her horse, I doubt if legally you could do this. In fact if you hide the horse, move it etc, then I think you could be said to have stolen it!

I see what you are saying, but its not in the same league as a car.

I am not denying her her horse, it hasnt come to that yet (haha) but I just need to sort this out in my head so that I can at least go at her with everything I have.

The money isnt an issue, you cant take it with you, but I desperately dont want her to take the horse back, just so that she can leave her in the same position this time next year. The next place she goes might just leave her to rot.

Its truly heartbreaking.

:'(

 

[Haha]

Would the yard owner say that she hasn't paid the rent/livery to her for how ever long? The Yard owner should have the passport if she used to livery the horse there I think? That way she could say she has then sold the horse to you to cover the owed livery charges?? The yard owner had a duty of care to make sure the horse was seen to while it was there when all the liveries looked after it the yard owner should have sorted it? So maybe she will help you?

 

[Hal1k1]

I'm sorry but you don't have any rights to the mare whatsoever. We had the same situation in a previous yard I was at and you will not get your money back and the only way you could keep her is with the owners consent.

I would try calling her bluff by saying that you will report her to the RSPCA and have her convicted for cruelty if she removes the horse as you have witnesses who will state how little care and what condition she was in when youu first loaned her. Do you have any photos of her in poor condition? Then I would offer to buy her as that is all the owner wants, money to feed her habits.

I do feel for you but sadly the owner has the law on her side!

 

[Darkprincessh]

Possibly. I need to look into that.

I know Posession isnt nine tenths of the law, I just wondered if there was something that could be done when it came to animals.

As someone has already pointed out, I could offer to buy her, but the condition she is in now, she is worth a hell of a lot more than when I took her in.

What a nightmare!!

 

[HilaryG]

Would the yard owner say that she hasn't paid the rent/livery to her for how ever long? The Yard owner should have the passport if she used to livery the horse there I think? That way she could say she has then sold the horse to you to cover the owed livery charges?? The yard owner had a duty of care to make sure the horse was seen to while it was there when all the liveries looked after it the yard owner should have sorted it? So maybe she will help you?

The yard owner could only sell the mare to recover a livery debt if she had advised her in writing that this is what she intended.
Asking the yard owner to lie when the post clearly states the the mare was taken on loan might seem the right thing to do but is not the way forward!

 

[missyme10]

I see what you are saying, but its not in the same league as a car.

I am not denying her her horse, it hasnt come to that yet (haha) but I just need to sort this out in my head so that I can at least go at her with everything I have.

The money isnt an issue, you cant take it with you, but I desperately dont want her to take the horse back, just so that she can leave her in the same position this time next year. The next place she goes might just leave her to rot.

Its truly heartbreaking.

:'(

If this woman can't pay her mortgage and is undergoing repossession of her house, she'll not be able to afford livery either. She wants this horse back because she can see money in her.

You can try and reason with her and buy her at a reasonable price, chances are she's desperate for money and may take a low cash there and then offer.
Someone like her will think of getting the most she can if its an offer to be sorted at later date because she cant see the money, take cash, flash it at her, chances are she'll be desperate for money and just take it because she'll need it there and then, not next week or next month.
Dont put her on the back foot as in well look what you did to the mare, it will only get her back up and she'll become defensive. Be nice as hard as it may be, and use her own desperation against her.
If she doesn't accept your cash offer and says she's gonna sell at later date, walk away and say well offer is there. If she's truely a drug problem, she'll soon phone you up and say is that offer still on ?

At worst, you'll have to buy her at current market value

 

[Haha]

The yard owner could only sell the mare to recover a livery debt if she had advised her in writing that this is what she intended.
Asking the yard owner to lie when the post clearly states the the mare was taken on loan might seem the right thing to do but is not the way forward!

But there is no loan agreement and the yard owner told her she wasn't allowed on the yard? The horse remained so if someone payed the livery surely that would be like paying for the horse instead of the owner like paying in installments

I'm just grasping at straws really for the OP. Probably best to offer to buy the horse

 

[YorksG]

The idea that the livery paid by instalments would only be workable if that was an agreement before the situation happened, it cannot be done retrospectively. Likewise the neglect route cannot be taken retrospectively either. Photos of the mare when in poor condition will not be acceptable, we all know about photoshop etc. The state of the animal in the past cannot be prooven and is not relevant in the ownership debate. I think all the OP can do is offer to pay for the mare.

 

[miss_bird]

I have to agree withe the above posters that i dont think legally you have a leg to stand on.
I would be offerering her cash on the spot, but also take something in wrotong that if she takes the money she signs to show she is sold to you, or the again wil be no proof of money changing hands

 

[missyme10]

I have to agree withe the above posters that i dont think legally you have a leg to stand on.
I would be offerering her cash on the spot, but also take something in wrotong that if she takes the money she signs to show she is sold to you, or the again wil be no proof of money changing hands

Good point, there is also the issue of her passport, if not available due to being lost, make sure the receipt states this clearly.
Then apply for a new passport the day you own her, it takes a week only. Vet out and microchip and send paperwork away, you'll have new passport back in less than a week.

Pet ID are really quick and cheap, I used them once for my daughters new pony, she was shipped in from Ireland without a passport x

 

[jroz]

I don't think you have a leg to stand on either. Mistake #1 was going into a agreement with a addict. Mistake #2 was expecting she would follow through on her end of the bargain.

The only (slim) chance you might have is if she never paid her yard fees. The YO could then padlock the mare into a stall, and keep her in lieu of payment. Then you could buy the mare off your YO, with a bill of sale of course.

 

[Tnavas]

Has the owner paid her bills for livery? If not then the YO could possibly claim 'Abandonment'.

There may be a way around it if she has abandoned the horse.

Alternitvely - you could keep your fingers crossed, confront the woman and remind her that she had leased the horse to you and that since that agreement you have paid out a lot to get her horse well again. That despite regular requests she has not provided a lease agreement. As she plans to take the horse back off you, you would like to be compensated for all the money you have paid out.

I really think you need to seek proper legal help - Are you a member of BHAS? They have a good equine legal department and probebly get many incidences like this.

Good luck for you and the mare.

 

[Clippy]

If you never signed a loan agreement, then morally the owner should reimburse you for what you've spent on caring for the horse. I'd go down the route of writing down what the horse has cost you and presenting her with a bill in one hand and an offer in the other of a reasonable payment in full settlement for ownership.

If it went to Court, I doubt you'd get ownership but you may get your expenses for keeping the horse as it was sort-of abandoned. This woman will want money and not more debt, she won't care about the horse. You could also get a few statements from others on the yard who helped feed her in the winter and show these to the owner - it might shame her into leaving the horse with you and accepting your offer.

Don't try to get a new passport, you must do all you can to get a duplicate of the original which may not be as difficult as you think.

I seriously hope this works out the way you hope - for the horse as much as for you.

 

[Hullabaloo]

I think your best bet would be to offer to buy the horse from the owner - if you can offer her the money in cash, that might make it more attractive to her.

 

[Kaylum]

If I were you I would just keep her and tell her to sod off. Having seen some of the problems people have had getting their loan horses back without an agreement she will have one hell of a fight on her hands and there is no way she would be able to afford to take you to the small claims court. £100 of class A or a court claim.

Get a passport and keep her. If she comes around tell her to take you to court or pay the livery bill neither of which she will be able to afford.

 

[Wagtail]

If you never signed a loan agreement, then morally the owner should reimburse you for what you've spent on caring for the horse. I'd go down the route of writing down what the horse has cost you and presenting her with a bill in one hand and an offer in the other of a reasonable payment in full settlement for ownership.

If it went to Court, I doubt you'd get ownership but you may get your expenses for keeping the horse as it was sort-of abandoned. This woman will want money and not more debt, she won't care about the horse. You could also get a few statements from others on the yard who helped feed her in the winter and show these to the owner - it might shame her into leaving the horse with you and accepting your offer.

Don't try to get a new passport, you must do all you can to get a duplicate of the original which may not be as difficult as you think.

I seriously hope this works out the way you hope - for the horse as much as for you.

This is exactly what I thought. I would threaten to take her to the small claims court to get your money back too if she didn't play ball. She effectively abandoned the horse with you. You were faced with causing cruelty by turning your back, or looking after the animal.

 

[Wagtail]

If all else fails I would padlock the mare in and claim ownership. Get a passport. Let her fork out the money to take you to court. There is no way you can let that mare go back to her. I know that this would not strictly speaking be within the law, but it is what I would do. The yard owner may be able to help you too, as other posters have suggested.

 

[camilla4]

If all else fails I would padlock the mare in and claim ownership. Get a passport. Let her fork out the money to take you to court. There is no way you can let that mare go back to her. I know that this would not strictly speaking be within the law, but it is what I would do. The yard owner may be able to help you too, as other posters have suggested.

ACtually I really wouldn't do that - that is technically theft and thus a criminal offence. The owner wouldn't need to take you to court herself as she could have you prosecuted! This is really difficult situation but I would proceed with caution if you want the best chance of saving the horse from a neglect situation. Good luck whatever you do - the horse deserves better than her!

 

[Tinypony]

Do you have insurance? Ideally equine, or BHS Gold, but household insurance might cover you. Get some legal advice, you could come unstuck following some of the ideas on here.

 

[Cuffey]

Are you a BHS member--may be worth a call to their legal helpline

 

[Bethie]

But you DO have a loan agreement, just not in writing. All a written contract does is provide proof of the terms that the parties have entered into. A verbal contract (to loan) is a perfectly valid contract in English Law.

You can't have your cake and eat it - from your OP YOU asked to loan the horse, and now your complaining that she wants the horse back after you've spent money on it. What did you think was going to happen! If you'd wanted to buy this horse before spending money on it then that's what you should have done, or not got involved at all.