Posession - 9/10ths of the law!?

Im not sure about the other ideas as it seems quite complicated legally, and i really wouldn't know what best to advise.

But i just wanted to say if it came to trying to buy the mare i would say that she has x, y and z problem so that you're not paying extra for the work you've done. And really stress that she wouldn't be worth much on the open market.
 
Do you think someone who takes class A drugs and has abandoned her horse and is having her house repossessed seriously cares about the law? I dont.
 
Darkprincessh said:
At the yard I keep my horses, recently a woman was banned. She was told by the owner of the land that she could no longer come on to the yard because she is an alcoholic and takes class A drugs and was a liability to herself and the animals. She owns a beautiful mare who she didnt care for properly, even when she was allowed on the yard. The poor thing was left out all winter, no rugs or food
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Darkprincessh said:
About 6 months ago, I contacted the owner of the mare and told her I was disgusted with how she had abandoned the poor animal, and what was she going to do about it. After a long conversation it was decided that I would take the horse on full loan and an agreement would be put in place.
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.[/QUOTE]

Im confused about the order of events here. the woman was banned recently? The horse was left out all winter? And youve had her on Loan for about 6 months. So thats since December? So how has this woman left her out all winter and abandoned the horse if youve had it ON LOAN since December-ish?

This isnt adding up to me but of course we arent hearing both sides of the story. Youve had the horse on loan, if the woman wants her horse back she is breaking no laws asking for her back, whether you like her or not isnt relevant you cant effectively steal a horse.
 
Move horse. Report passport as lost n get a new one. Sever all contact with previous owner. Really will she report her stolen if she is as bad as you say? Or run risk of dealing with it normally and lose her. She is trying to make quick moneu by scaring you x
 
I think that, having read this thread, people are confusing Criminal and Civil aspects of the law.

This woman has had her horse at a livery yard, therefore there is an implication that she should pay the yard owner livery charges, whether or not a formal agreement on paper exists. Even though she herself is banned from the yard, health and safety issues are a valid reason for her not to be at the yard herself, she is still liable for the livery costs.

Also whilst no formal agreement exists between you and her regarding the costs incurred by you in providing a basic level of care for the horse, as she has verbally agreed this with you then she is liable to you for those costs.

These monies that she owes are a civil debt to you and the yard owner, and you and the YO should think about sueing her for the money in the small claims court. She should not remove the horse until the debt is paid or a court order exists in respect of this money.

This is in respect of her liabilities in a Civil Court Case.

The Criminal Law states that a Theft occurs where a person dishonestly appropreates property belonging to another, with the intention of permanently depriving the owner of that property.

Obviously in this case you have not acted dishonestly in appropreating the property (the horse) of which you and the YO are in posession of. Your intention is not to keep it permanently and she can have it back once she clears her debts.

If she abandons the horse, then under Criminal Law, you are entitled to keep it. Abandonment is a stutarory defense against an allegation of theft, but the onus is on you to prove that she has abandoned the horse.

The circumstances here are not straight forward and should she try to involve the Police then I am guessing they would say this is a civil debt and not want to get involved.

A solution to this problem as I see it would be to approach the owner with a bill from you and the YO, the object being to get her to sign the horse over to you in leiu of the debt. You must, however, be prepaired to take action against her in the Civil Court to recover your money. These proceedings can be stopped once she agrees to formally hand over the horse to you.
 
There is some seriously bad advice on this thread that could get you a criminal record. I'm sure that's not what you want so get some proper legal advice. I'm afraid though I expect that will basically be "tough - she owns the mare. You want her, offer to buy her & keep your fingers crossed she accepts"
 
Sorry to say that you have no legal right with regards to this horse what so ever.

What will billing her achieve? she hasnt got any cash???

Even these loan agreements - are not worth the paper they are written on - I was talking to our company solicitor about them the other day - they are worthless - the legal owner of the horse will always be able to do what the heck they like when they like.

I think the best bet is call her up and tell her horse is so lame its unbelievable and you want to give it back - lie to her - tell her if the horse was yours - say for 200 quid - you will take bills on etc.... Maybe she will agree to see her. Then drive to her house with a reciept and get her to sign - show the cash to her and she will probably bite your hand off.

What a sad story for all - well done on being so caring and picking up the horse.

So sad that this lady is in such a mess - what a shame - I know she is neglecting her horse but I feel bad for people in her situation - its an awful downward spiral - I know the 'make your bed lie in it' but still.

I do hope you get the results you want.
 
hairycob said:
There is some seriously bad advice on this thread that could get you a criminal record"
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........... except that from AndySpooner - follow that and remember that what is correct in the eyes of the law and what is correct in the moral world are not necessarily the same thing.
 
She owns the horse... You took it on loan, happily spent money on it... Now youre complaining because the rightful owner wants it back? If I loaned a horse from someone drug addict or not, how could I hope to reclaim costs of looking after it from the owner when they wanted it back? That's what a loan is!!! Your only bet is to offer to buy it, if she refuses and you try and keep the horse dishonestly then that's theft. We only have one side of the story ... Who is to say the OP hasn't exaggerated how bad the situation was? The owner might just want it back to sell, or who knows she might have got clean and wantdsto resume looking after her horse, but it's nobody elses business, it's her horse she can do what she wants with it!!
 
hairycob said:
There is some seriously bad advice on this thread that could get you a criminal record. I'm sure that's not what you want so get some proper legal advice. I'm afraid though I expect that will basically be "tough - she owns the mare. You want her, offer to buy her & keep your fingers crossed she accepts"
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Agree with this!

I am amazed that so many people are advocating stealing the horse!

The horse was not gifted to the OP, it was a loan agreement, the owner is fully entitled to have her back. The amount of money you've spent is totally irrelevant, you willingly paid it and there was no agreement with the owner that you should be compensated for doing so.

I agree the best option is to offer to buy her.
 
Thank you all for your advice in regards to this.

Firstly, there is no loan agreement in writing.She asked me if I would care for the horse until she was able to do so, which I have no doubt that she can not.

I also do not advocate stealing anyones animal, and would not do so, no matter how desperate the situation. Yes, she is an addict, and yes, she treat the horse badly, but she is still the owner of the horse at the end of the day, and yes, she can do what she likes with it.

In response to those people telling me I shouldnt have got involved - well that was not an option. I did not exagerate the condition of the horse, nor the situation the woman was in. As for the time line of events, she WAS banned recently, but never bothered to come prior to that, so yes, for about 6 months, I have been caring for the mare, as prior to that, she didnt bother to do so, and then she was unable to do so as she was banned from entering the land.

I will be seeking legal advice, but this was just to see if anyone knew of anything I could do.

I am not worried about the money, and if I never get a penny of it back, then at least for the time I have had the mare she has experienced being loved, well cared for and being part of a herd. I just wouldnt want to see her suffering again.

For those of you who have made me feel bad and stupid for getting involved, I have no comment. Horses mean as much to me as people, and if I had to spend twice what I did on getting her better, only to lose her, there would be no question that that is what I would do.

There are currently 2 options in my mind:-

1. Take legal action in relation to the state of the horse when I took her in. I have enough witnesses who would confirm she was a in a sorry state when I got her, and that I have cared for her for 6 months with no contact or anything from the Owner. I will have to seek more legal advice in relation to this.

2. Offer to buy her. Hopefuly the owner will be thinking more about getting her next fix than the welfare of the animal.

Thank you all again for your help with this.

I will of course keep you posted!

Hx
 
Darkprincessh said:
Thank you all for your advice in regards to this.

Firstly, there is no loan agreement in writing.She asked me if I would care for the horse until she was able to do so, which I have no doubt that she can not.

I also do not advocate stealing anyones animal, and would not do so, no matter how desperate the situation. Yes, she is an addict, and yes, she treat the horse badly, but she is still the owner of the horse at the end of the day, and yes, she can do what she likes with it.

In response to those people telling me I shouldnt have got involved - well that was not an option. I did not exagerate the condition of the horse, nor the situation the woman was in. As for the time line of events, she WAS banned recently, but never bothered to come prior to that, so yes, for about 6 months, I have been caring for the mare, as prior to that, she didnt bother to do so, and then she was unable to do so as she was banned from entering the land.

I will be seeking legal advice, but this was just to see if anyone knew of anything I could do.

I am not worried about the money, and if I never get a penny of it back, then at least for the time I have had the mare she has experienced being loved, well cared for and being part of a herd. I just wouldnt want to see her suffering again.

For those of you who have made me feel bad and stupid for getting involved, I have no comment. Horses mean as much to me as people, and if I had to spend twice what I did on getting her better, only to lose her, there would be no question that that is what I would do.

There are currently 2 options in my mind:-

1. Take legal action in relation to the state of the horse when I took her in. I have enough witnesses who would confirm she was a in a sorry state when I got her, and that I have cared for her for 6 months with no contact or anything from the Owner. I will have to seek more legal advice in relation to this.

2. Offer to buy her. Hopefuly the owner will be thinking more about getting her next fix than the welfare of the animal.

Thank you all again for your help with this.

I will of course keep you posted!

Hx
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Personally, I think what you have done for the horse is excellent, lots of folk would not get involved, to be critical of someone who has says a lot more about them than you.

Obviously, dealing with someone in the situation the owner is in is never easy, and time does pass quickly when you are waiting for someone like this to get their act together and make a decision.

I hope she lets you buy the horse, this seems to me to be the best solution. Legal advice is all very well, but more often than not lawyers take your money and after a few costly letters tell you there is nothing further they can do.

In dealing with people in the owners situation the trick is convincing them that selling to you is their best and most attractive option. Its all very well having sympathy for their situation but not let it cloud the issue and your objective.
 
You should have got an agreement done.
You could have got it printed and gone to her house, made it hard for her to get out of it.

She has probably done it in purpose, let you do all the work then when she feels like it take her back or reep the profit.

I hope you get a good out come.
 
Take the cash in £5 notes, so that it looks like a huge stack and take two copies of a bill of sale for you both to sign (one copy each). Hopefully a large stack of cash will be too tempting for her to refuse.

I agree with the advice earlier in the thread to send off for a passport straight away (once you've bought the horse) and get the horse freezemarked (much more easily identifiable than a microchip).
 
AndySpooner said:
I think that, having read this thread, people are confusing Criminal and Civil aspects of the law.

This woman has had her horse at a livery yard, therefore there is an implication that she should pay the yard owner livery charges, whether or not a formal agreement on paper exists. Even though she herself is banned from the yard, health and safety issues are a valid reason for her not to be at the yard herself, she is still liable for the livery costs.

Also whilst no formal agreement exists between you and her regarding the costs incurred by you in providing a basic level of care for the horse, as she has verbally agreed this with you then she is liable to you for those costs.

These monies that she owes are a civil debt to you and the yard owner, and you and the YO should think about sueing her for the money in the small claims court. She should not remove the horse until the debt is paid or a court order exists in respect of this money.

This is in respect of her liabilities in a Civil Court Case.

The Criminal Law states that a Theft occurs where a person dishonestly appropreates property belonging to another, with the intention of permanently depriving the owner of that property.

Obviously in this case you have not acted dishonestly in appropreating the property (the horse) of which you and the YO are in posession of. Your intention is not to keep it permanently and she can have it back once she clears her debts.

If she abandons the horse, then under Criminal Law, you are entitled to keep it. Abandonment is a stutarory defense against an allegation of theft, but the onus is on you to prove that she has abandoned the horse.

The circumstances here are not straight forward and should she try to involve the Police then I am guessing they would say this is a civil debt and not want to get involved.

A solution to this problem as I see it would be to approach the owner with a bill from you and the YO, the object being to get her to sign the horse over to you in leiu of the debt. You must, however, be prepaired to take action against her in the Civil Court to recover your money. These proceedings can be stopped once she agrees to formally hand over the horse to you.
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This is excellent advice and put far more eloquently than I was trying to put it! Bill her for your expenses and services and keep the horse in lieu of payment. I doubt very much if the police would be interested in geting involved so that wouldn't worry me in the least. You are in the moral and legal right.
 
browbrow said:
What will billing her achieve? she hasnt got any cash???
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Because being presented with a bill may persuade her to offer th horse as payment. The OP could offer to take the horse as payment or threaten to take her to the small claims court.
 
Wagtail said:
If all else fails I would padlock the mare in and claim ownership. Get a passport. Let her fork out the money to take you to court. There is no way you can let that mare go back to her. I know that this would not strictly speaking be within the law, but it is what I would do. The yard owner may be able to help you too, as other posters have suggested.
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What an incredibley stupid thing to advise, 1st of all op poster said it was a LOAN horse has never been abandoned 2nd you have just advised the op to break the law by suggesting she gets the horse re passported, that carries an offence.

as for claiming ownership its NOT her horse and at the end of the day none of her business if the owner is a fit owner, owner wants the horse back it goes back as for op costs well that was totally her choice.
 
Darkprincessh said:
Thank you all for your advice in regards to this.

Firstly, there is no loan agreement in writing.She asked me if I would care for the horse until she was able to do so
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That is your loan agreement right there... it is a verbal agreement and although not in writing is still an agreement no matter how you look at it.

She is the legal owner and whether she can care for the horse or not she can remove it at any time into her care whether you think she is capable or not.

Sadly I personally would offer her a token for the horse, she may suprise you and take it, or she may not. Either way you do have a loan agreement in place and it doesnt have to be in writing to stand up...

I hope she just hands the horse over to you but she may want something for it, either way it sounds likeit is been cared for far better with yourself... I hope this all works out for you :)
 
Lol - she is a class a drug user - poor op will get told to p?ss off most likely.

Billing said drug user will just pee her off and probably see op without horse.

If this went to court - judge looks at reasonable belief on what's gone on. Which is addict couldn't look after horse, op offered to help, addict wants horse back, op kicking off. Poor op poster may get horse but will get a fat legal bill either way.

Op - I just feel so bad for you - in an ideal world - horse would be gifted to you for thanks for looking after it etc.... But sadly your dealing with someone who clearly needs the money. I think the fivers in a big bundle a good idea, pop round to house " hey addict how are you? Heard you might want horse back which is cool, how about I buy her for say 500 quid, here's cash, oh you no want to sell? Ok shall I deliver horse next week then? And then you owe me for petrol of delivery and 70 in livery for a week?"
 
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