Position of the head in dressage movements

shortstuff99 said:
No my flexion is not turning the head. Infact the 'head' hardly seems to move. What you are wanting is a 'relaxation' to the flex, and the flex can be in different parts of the neck/body. Eg, poll or base of neck or rib cage. What you are aiming to do is release tension through the whole spine so the contact can be taken forwards and out.
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Ok, I think I understand. Easy, I think that for advanced riders and people who understand in-hand and what you are trying to achieve. It needs to be used in context though for people who don't so that it's not seen as just controlling the head and neck gets results because they may not realise how - which is why there is such a big share in gadgets.
 
tallyho! said:
Ok, I think I understand. Easy, I think that for advanced riders and people who understand in-hand and what you are trying to achieve. It needs to be used in context though for people who don't so that it's not seen as just controlling the head and neck gets results because they may not realise how - which is why there is such a big share in gadgets.
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This probably going to make me sound really preachy and I don't want to offend but maybe people should learn this before they try to train a horse for dressage. But I guess this is what a lot of these discussions are about!
 
tallyho! said:
I think talking about abut the head position automatically brings you onto talking about just that and how it is achieved.

If people spent just as much time talking about engagement and impulsion, I wonder if we would have ever been in such a situation we are now internationally.

All everyone ever talks about is the leg movers and never about how the body is moving. Now we have generations of young people who have no clue about how horses move and how to ride unless they buy as much leather, webbing and sheepskin as they possibly can to strap the head to it's chest to make their tb look like totilas.

If we concentrated on impulsion, engagement and getting the body strong enough to become "on the bit", I think there would be less problems. I don't think HHO and other horse magazines are helping either.
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This is not at all the case everywhere .
The trainers I work with are very committed to developing how the horse uses it's body .
 
shortstuff99 said:
I always disagree when people say to leave the head and neck completely alone, that can't work either. You have to provide a contact for a horse to work into otherwise any energy you've created will just fall out the front door. And what some people seem to forget is that the neck is part of the spine, you need to be able to influence the neck to be able to influence the back. You can't have a relaxed back without a relaxed neck!
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No one is saying you leave the head totally alone .
I am saying your main focus is not on the position of the head you will still be seeking to maintain connection ( unless you're working on loose reins in which case you are maintaing the connection with your legs and body ).
 
shortstuff99 said:
You have to provide a contact for a horse to work into otherwise any energy you've created will just fall out the front door. !
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But this just isn't true, is it? I went to an exhibition of 16th century style riding recently and there was very little contact and the horses were full of energy and very highly collected and doing airs above the ground. Western horses have tons of energy and even less contact a lot of the time. Horses are quite capable of working with energy and in self carriage carrying a rider with no contact on a bit at all.
 
Actually they do both work into a contact, it's just a different contact from a 'dressage' looking frame. In order to be so collected and do airs above the ground they would be in 'self carriage' which they've developed through using contact. And the western way is often misconstrued, they are working with a contact it's just a very long frame. Why do you think these riders use (both classical and western) use such large shank bits? They use it for minute communication through the contact. And riders without bridles with a strap around the neck are still using a contact just not with the mouth.
 
shortstuff99 said:
This probably going to make me sound really preachy and I don't want to offend but maybe people should learn this before they try to train a horse for dressage. But I guess this is what a lot of these discussions are about!
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There just isn't the consistency in this country to make this assumption. And yes, this is why we are having the discussion I guess.

I didn't come across a decent teacher until my 20's. Before then it was the proven UK method of "kick/pull or both together" and whilst I appreciate this is not representative of everyone's experience, it is for many.
 
ycbm said:
Horses are quite capable of working with energy and in self carriage carrying a rider with no contact on a bit at all.
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I agree with this. If you train young horses, often it's counter productive to control the "frame" early on. The strength has to be built upon according to the capability of the young horse - and the core, back and quarters strength has to come before anything else. Then the spine influences the neck.
 
This comment is number 100 on the thread and I think it sums up the whole discussion.

Always always ride from the leg to the hand, NEVER the other way round.
 
But you will need a contact at some point. Having horses on a loose rein and just working on the back will never produce a 'frame' (for want of a better word). As soon as your reins are shorter then the buckle you will be having a contact.
 
shortstuff99 said:
But you will need a contact at some point. Having horses on a loose rein and just working on the back will never produce a 'frame' (for want of a better word). As soon as your reins are shorter then the buckle you will be having a contact.
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But I don't think anyone has said on the thread that you ride all the time with no contact .
There's a big difference between fixing the head with the hand and having and keeping the contact and allowing the horse to move it's head.
There's also a difference between fixing the head and using flexion and bending to influence the horse .
 
alice.j said:
Sylvia Loch, in one of her books, says that the poll should be the highest point, and that the head should be perpendicular to the neck - e.g. the neck and the head should make a 90 degree angle (at the front of the head, not the cheeks). Being broken at the 3rd (aka having the crest highest) can actually lead to joint and muscle problems, as well as being awkward for the horse; imagine always walking around with your back bent, it's not comfortable!
Some showing judges are apparently starting to reward those with polls highest and put down over bent horses, so I've been told.
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Lola13 said:
I agree with both of you, I hope there will be a change, it is so sad that there is so few riders nowdays who ride correctly like real dressage masters like Nuno Oliveira used to.

I love this picture so much: http://www.dany-lahaye.fr/Images/oliveirabw.jpg beauty, grace, elegance, correctness and a healthy, relaxed horse.
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To be honest its best to forget the head and focus on getting the rear end in the right place - but over all at whatever level you work at

The poll should always be the highest point of the neck, with the face preferably just in front of the vertical - it should never be behind the vertical - nor should the third vertebrae be the highest point of the neck.
 
Tnavas said:
To be honest its best to forget the head and focus on getting the rear end in the right place - but over all at whatever level you work at

The poll should always be the highest point of the neck, with the face preferably just in front of the vertical - it should never be behind the vertical - nor should the third vertebrae be the highest point of the neck.
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The poll canot be the highest point if you do stretching work in training of course there is a school of training that does value stretching and working Land L but it's pretty well proven that working Land L does help develop the back and it gives the back and neck muscles a chance to stretch during a work session and at the end .
Horses are designed to go L and L their back muscles are stretched like this all the time they are grazing so it makes sense to me to include it during every work session
 
Lola13 said:
I didnt decide that, the scientists decided that. ...

The scientists didnt one day wrote "Atention, atention! now every unnatural overflexing of the horses head is hyperflexion", they uncovered over the years all the different signs of hyperflexion that show in different parts of the body, and they have been shown in also "deep, round and low" and incorrect "collection".

I have already written some of the efects of the incorrect "collections" : Partial crushing of partoid salivary gland, injury of atlanooccipital membrane, damage on cervical spine and spinal muscles, severe recrudescent necrosis of the muscles etc. etc.
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And you have provided links to evidence to support these claims, where exactly? And I do mean evidence, not opinion articles... I'm not disagreeing that rollkur and some aspects of competitive dressage are unedifying, but that doesn't mean you can make these sorts of claims without justifying them.

I'd also tentatively suggest you drop your evangelical attitude and accept that you're not the only one who thinks they know what they're talking about ;)
 
shortstuff99 said:
This is what I was replying to. I was trying to say in training there will always be a contact even if in the end you work to this goal contact will have been used at some point.
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You said that without a contact all the energy you create will disappear out the front. Rightly or wrongly, I took that to mean that as soon as you drop the contact the energy will disappear. This is something I read and hear said often to explain what often look like fairly heavy hands. I don't think that has to be true, though it certainly seems to be true of a lot of competitive high level dressage.
 
So the backlash to Charlotte and Carl has started already then...

For what it is worth, I am no dressage expert. The highest level I have got to is BD novice with my little arab so I don't really feel like I can comment on the technicalities.

But I can give my opinion as a spectator and say that Charlotte and Carl's horses always look very relaxed and secure in their work. They always look like they are enjoying their job and for me are a joy to watch. Yes, sometimes they go behind the vertical but they certainly don't look like the white eyed stress balls that the likes of Adelinde and Edward Gal's horses do.

I am yet to see any evidence that long, deep and round is bad for the horse or that being slightly behind the vertical is any worse than being slightly above? In the absence of which this seems to just come down to a technicality and a conclusion that dressage is hard and the perfect outline at all times for the hardest of movements while maintaining relaxation, tempo and energy is near to impossible??
 
Goldenstar said:
The poll canot be the highest point if you do stretching work in training of course there is a school of training that does value stretching and working Land L but it's pretty well proven that working Land L does help develop the back and it gives the back and neck muscles a chance to stretch during a work session and at the end .
Horses are designed to go L and L their back muscles are stretched like this all the time they are grazing so it makes sense to me to includes it during every work session
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The description for free walk on a long rein has the muzzle in line with the point of the shoulder so the poll still remains the highest point of the neck. But I do know what you mean, when working long and low the head is often lower than the withers but care needs to be taken to ensure the face does not go behind the vertical, which it often does.
 
JFTD said:
And you have provided links to evidence to support these claims, where exactly? And I do mean evidence, not opinion articles... I'm not disagreeing that rollkur and some aspects of competitive dressage are unedifying, but that doesn't mean you can make these sorts of claims without justifying them.

I'd also tentatively suggest you drop your evangelical attitude and accept that you're not the only one who thinks they know what they're talking about ;)
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I dont want to post ugly autopsy pictures on forums, people get very upset when they see them, so much that some of the uglyest were completely taken off the internet. I instead wrote what was discovered in the researches. If you are interested to see the pictures just go to google, and for the most detailed ones you will have to contact the people who conducted the researches. I am not sending any picture like that to anyone, just to be accused of disturbing people. I am reluctant even to write about it because people from a few sentences start imagining things and get disturbed.

I am again writting, english is my second language and I havent used it for ages, so my writting may seem like I am a smarty pants, actually I just try to write in english correctly.
 
Lola13 said:
I dont want to post ugly autopsy pictures on forums, people get very upset when they see them, so much that some of the uglyest were completely taken off the internet. I instead wrote what was discovered in the researches. If you are interested to see the pictures just go to google, and for the most detailed ones you will have to contact the people who conducted the researches. I am not sending any picture like that to anyone, just to be accused of disturbing people. I am reluctant even to write about it because people from a few sentences start imagining things and get disturbed.

I am again writting, english is my second language and I havent used it for ages, so my writting may seem like I am a smarty pants, actually I just try to write in english correctly.
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Lola I think your English is very good indeed. I also think that you are making a valid point, but I am confused why you are using pictures of Charlotte Dujardin and Valegro when there are so many much worse examples. Although we have had a calm discussion about the subject, it is pretty likely to annoy people to come onto an English forum and use her as a example when she and her trainer Carl Hester are probably among the least likely people competing at top level to be using abusive methods of training.

I also don't think there is any evidence that being mildly overbent for short periods is damaging to a horse, nor do I think there is any comparison between being mildly overbent and rollkur. And I agree with others that long and low is not rollkur.
 
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Lola13 said:
I dont want to post ugly autopsy pictures on forums, people get very upset when they see them, so much that some of the uglyest were completely taken off the internet. I instead wrote what was discovered in the researches. If you are interested to see the pictures just go to google, and for the most detailed ones you will have to contact the people who conducted the researches. I am not sending any picture like that to anyone, just to be accused of disturbing people. I am reluctant even to write about it because people from a few sentences start imagining things and get disturbed.

I am again writting, english is my second language and I havent used it for ages, so my writting may seem like I am a smarty pants, actually I just try to write in english correctly.
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Oh no I think some of us would be well up for post mortem pictures, you could just put the links then they wouldn't show directly! I am sure the likes of jftd and myself have seen much worse/attended enough pms to not be affected! :D

From your response I am guessing there aren't any actual scientific papers on these though, it would be interesting to know where these horses came from and what their regimes were/length of time worked in hyperflexion etc.
 
abb123 said:
So the backlash to Charlotte and Carl has started already then...

For what it is worth, I am no dressage expert. The highest level I have got to is BD novice with my little arab so I don't really feel like I can comment on the technicalities.

But I can give my opinion as a spectator and say that Charlotte and Carl's horses always look very relaxed and secure in their work. They always look like they are enjoying their job and for me are a joy to watch. Yes, sometimes they go behind the vertical but they certainly don't look like the white eyed stress balls that the likes of Adelinde and Edward Gal's horses do.

I am yet to see any evidence that long, deep and round is bad for the horse or that being slightly behind the vertical is any worse than being slightly above? In the absence of which this seems to just come down to a technicality and a conclusion that dressage is hard and the perfect outline at all times for the hardest of movements while maintaining relaxation, tempo and energy is near to impossible??
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ycbm said:
Lola I think your English is very good indeed. I also think that you are making a valid point, but I am confused why you are using pictures of Charlotte Dujardin and Valegro when there are so many much worse examples. Although we have had a calm discussion about the subject, it is pretty likely to annoy people to come onto an English forum and use her as a example when she and her trainer Carl Hester are probably among the least likely people competing at top level to be using abusive methods of training.

I also don't think there is any evidence that being mildly overbent for short periods is damaging to a horse, nor do I think there is any comparison between being mildly overbent and rollkur. And I agree with others that long and low is not rollkur.
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They are certainly enjoying their job because they just dont care about riding correctly, horses not so much. If you need evidence just google it, simple as that. As I said, I am not going to disturb anyone with such pictures. Perfect outline is possible if you ride a horse correctly, if you dont you will struggle. I just want to say I am not trying to pick on Charlotte or Carl, I am talking about most of modern dressage riders. I posted their pictures because they are supposed to be the best of the best, and they do ride incorrectly, and not in the best interestof the horse, just like most modern riders. Most researches that have been done are not focused on rollkur, but a "collection" slightly behind the vertical. What has been found in those researches I have allready posted twice on this thread.
 
They meant the horses look to be enjoying their job.

It is also really annoying when people declare things and insist we spend time googling it!

'What has been found in those researches I have allready posted twice on this thread.'

you have mentioned them, not provided any substantive evidence.
 
Exactly Ester , Lola13 show us these papers and these photos you're not dealing with a load of fluffy bunnies who are going to take a fit of the vapours faced with an unpleasant photo.
 
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I would also like to see the photos, however disturbing you think I might find them, and references to the peer reviewed and published research that working mildly overbent damages horses Lola. Thank you.
 
ycbm said:
I would also like to see the photos, however disturbing you think I might find them, and references to the peer reviewed and published research that working mildly overbent damages horses Lola. Thank you.
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Could not have put it better.
 
ester said:
Oh no I think some of us would be well up for post mortem pictures, you could just put the links then they wouldn't show directly! I am sure the likes of jftd and myself have seen much worse/attended enough pms to not be affected! :D

From your response I am guessing there aren't any actual scientific papers on these though, it would be interesting to know where these horses came from and what their regimes were/length of time worked in hyperflexion etc.
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This website has posted some of those pictures, but they are not the ones who conducted the research. http://fairhorsemanship.tumblr.com/

On the bottom of the first page you can see "LDR" used in Spanish riding school, so they also strayed from classical dressage. And what a suprise, they also struggle to keep the horses topline correctly when ridding in "collection".
http://40.media.tumblr.com/7dd7f4c8cd8d9a3dc2a4e107e0b044bb/tumblr_nm701kdaNP1s6zhtjo1_1280.jpg
http://40.media.tumblr.com/fc5c9d127ccf81c58768e7cf072fad0c/tumblr_nm701kdaNP1s6zhtjo2_1280.jpg
http://40.media.tumblr.com/f069a079bd8ba4dffe465fc432d34365/tumblr_nm701kdaNP1s6zhtjo3_1280.jpg

If you search through the website pictures you will find one autopsy picture. And I have to say I didnt read the articles on that page so I am not supporting any other article because I dont know what are they about.
 
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