ester
Not slacking multitasking
Picture 8 the piaffe, the muscle under the neck appears to be engaged almost generating a sort of swan neck like posture, the horse looks tense compared to the pic of valegro in piaffe.
Position of the head in dressage movements
- Thread starter Lola13
- Start date
ester
Not slacking multitasking
has nowhere near the neck of valegro??
ester
Not slacking multitasking
Compare the lines.
And compare a horse that always had a huge canter as a youngster/fab hind leg who is now powering himself even more from behind- surely the aim of impulsion?
Lola13
Well-Known Member
Compare the lines again
Auslander
Well-Known Member
You may want to ensure that the image on the left is aligned horizontally before using it as a comparison with the one on the right!
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
There's little point of comparing pictures as you can choose a picture that prove anything you like .
It's not really a fruitful debate .
In the the pictures you posted when you asked to look at picture 6 and 8 I thought six was a nice picture marred by the fact the horse looked down in it's back , I did not like picture 8 at all the horse looked tense was looking backward .
However you can't form an overview of a horse from a photo chosen by someone trying to prove a point .
I could post a photo of J my horse in extended trot looking amazing , he not he's a very naughty boy .
It's not really a fruitful debate .
In the the pictures you posted when you asked to look at picture 6 and 8 I thought six was a nice picture marred by the fact the horse looked down in it's back , I did not like picture 8 at all the horse looked tense was looking backward .
However you can't form an overview of a horse from a photo chosen by someone trying to prove a point .
I could post a photo of J my horse in extended trot looking amazing , he not he's a very naughty boy .
Auslander
Well-Known Member
That's a very good point. I have one picture of my horse in passage where his poll is the highest point - he is clearly bouncing away very merrily, and his limbs are all in the correct place - but it's a horrible pic because he is tense, strong and rude. I have another where he is soft, swingy and beautifully forward, on a very light, almost loose rein, but he is behind the vertical. I know which picture I prefer.
Lola13
Well-Known Member
I am not saying compare the lines of one picture to the lines of the other picture. Compare where the poll of the horse is compared to the riders body etc.
Carl- eye of the horse/waist of the rider, poll/middle of upper arm of the rider
Charlotte- eye of the horse/saddle, poll/waist of the rider
ester
Not slacking multitasking
But to do that your lines have to be perpendicular to the floor, they aren't they are at a horizontal that doesn't exist.
Apercrumbie
Well-Known Member
A small bit of input on the subject of what is 'correct'. Who decides this? Does an older view of what is 'correct' have more sway simply because it is older? Modern dressage certainly has many problems but I find the insistence that the classical way of training is correct very dogmatic. Again, until I see some more scientific evidence about which way is better, I will continue to keep an open mind and enjoy a variety of methods. Dogma rarely creates the best trainer.
I also find the critique of Valegro a bit silly - anyone can see that he is relaxed and happy when competing, he also looks sound. It seems the only problem is that a certain sect believes that he is slightly 'incorrect'. Again, by whose authority? There are far, far bigger problems in the modern dressage world than the training of Valegro. It smacks of nit picking and point scoring.
I also find the critique of Valegro a bit silly - anyone can see that he is relaxed and happy when competing, he also looks sound. It seems the only problem is that a certain sect believes that he is slightly 'incorrect'. Again, by whose authority? There are far, far bigger problems in the modern dressage world than the training of Valegro. It smacks of nit picking and point scoring.
Lola13
Well-Known Member
ester
Not slacking multitasking
I think that is my point on whether classical is good for horses, or does asking them to do piaffe and passage inherently detrimental to joints/tendons/ligaments etc regardless so though is no 'right' even if classical was based on horse physiology and psychology- was the assessment of those two things correct at the time?
Lola13
Well-Known Member
He is supposed to be the best of the best, and has the most pictures on internet of all the horses that are not famous for being in deep rollkur, thats why his pictures are used.
EQUIDAE
Well-Known Member
Oh I get it now, sorry people.
It's more than head position. The horse on the right isn't tracking up and is hollow in the back. Neither horse is working completely correctly but I would rather see a horse working as the one on the left is - the dip behind the vertical could have been a moment in time, whereas the hollow back, lack of elevation in the shoulder and dragging hind limbs show a horse that isn't working correctly. The horse on the left, although behind the vertical, is lifted through the shoulder, is working through the back and is stepping under from behind.
Taking one part of the horse alone (and for one moment in time) doesn't give a true reflection of the overall picture.
paddi22
Well-Known Member
absolute nit picking. the whole analysing pictures is a complete waste of time. If you had a ballet dancer on stage doing a move three times, im sure each pic would look different.
Breaking down issues to a few inches difference is crazy, its a living animal reacting to every step, not a machine locked into place.
Dressage is shooting itself in the foot if it takes this dogmatic approach. I love dressage, but this debate would make me go 'sod it il never do it properly unless did 5 years of perfect groundwork with an old masters I'l just run off and jump a few hedges for fun instead.!'
They would be better off working correct theory from grassroots up of relaxation and correct contact, and not just draw reining heads into place.
Breaking down issues to a few inches difference is crazy, its a living animal reacting to every step, not a machine locked into place.
Dressage is shooting itself in the foot if it takes this dogmatic approach. I love dressage, but this debate would make me go 'sod it il never do it properly unless did 5 years of perfect groundwork with an old masters I'l just run off and jump a few hedges for fun instead.!'
They would be better off working correct theory from grassroots up of relaxation and correct contact, and not just draw reining heads into place.
EQUIDAE
Well-Known Member
_GG_
Well-Known Member
I'm not even going to begin to respond to many of the comments made on this thread. I find the whole thing quite disturbing if I'm being 100% honest.
My points...
1/ Looking at a picture of a horse and thinking you can determine whether or not it is poll high is about as scientific as saying a book proves that dinosaurs didn't exist, but a deity created the earth in seven days. Yes, some photographs show horses in obvious hyperflexion where the poll is very definitely low, but there are many pictures being posted on this thread where horses of totally different form, conformation, muscle development, type and levels of relaxation are being compared against each other. You can't compare any one horse against another. Ever.
Unless you can see the skeleton in action through the skin and muscle, you cannot say with even a fraction of surety in many of these photographs being shared, whether the poll is the highest point or not. Photographs are pretty much useless for this type of debate.
2/ Picture 8 in the last link is awful. Head position is the last thing that should be considered when looking for a correctly performing horse, I do not understand why people still focus on the position of the head over the rest of the body. Why does Valegro win so much? Because he is so fully engaged through his back, lifted through his core and round in his entire frame, sitting well back on his haunches and creating lightness and ease of movement....that's why. It's got beggar all to do with where his head is...and quite rightly so.
3/ My main point and the one I am most passionate about - We are forgetting about the horse. I truly believe this. In every thread, article and video I've seen on the subject of head carriage, people bang on and on about where the head should be and that it should be on or just above the vertical. This is what is wanted in dressage, that is because, it is the aim, the goal, what is achieved when everything else has come together. Nobody is forcing anybody to go out and compete, so if people are putting this up as their holy grail...that's their personal issue. What I mean by that is, not all horses are the same. We can't converse in English with horses....if we could, it would be hilarious. Stop the horse half way through schooling and tell it it's head should be on or just above the vertical and you'd get laughed at by some. Not all horses are made equal....some will be out of their comfort zone in the position that humans have decided is the required ideal. Is it fair to judge a horse and rider on that? No. The masters of dressage, those on pedestals that many people quote or reference in threads like this....they all knew that. They understood that each and every mount was different and the focus was on the overall horse, not the head. They knew that years ago...but we are still obsessing over the head being in the *right* position now??? Not only that, but before hailing the masters of dressage as the pinnacle of all that is good in the world...take a closer look....some of the methods and training was downright disgraceful. I am never popular for saying that....but there it is. Not everyone is perfect. Not all horses are the same. Focussing on the head position is fruitless if what you want to do is consider the welfare of the horse (with the exception of obvious forced hyperflexion). They are all different. All I am seeing in the judging of dressage nowadays is that horses that are more correct in their frame (engaged core and hindquarters, rounded, lifted back and self carriage) are being more highly marked than those who are on or just above the vertical but hollow in the back and dropped through the core. I hope it stays that way as the latter is never a good thing to see for the well being of the horse.
If I could promote one thing about the head position of horses in dressage or any other type of work...it would be that it's the last flipping thing that matters!
My points...
1/ Looking at a picture of a horse and thinking you can determine whether or not it is poll high is about as scientific as saying a book proves that dinosaurs didn't exist, but a deity created the earth in seven days. Yes, some photographs show horses in obvious hyperflexion where the poll is very definitely low, but there are many pictures being posted on this thread where horses of totally different form, conformation, muscle development, type and levels of relaxation are being compared against each other. You can't compare any one horse against another. Ever.
Unless you can see the skeleton in action through the skin and muscle, you cannot say with even a fraction of surety in many of these photographs being shared, whether the poll is the highest point or not. Photographs are pretty much useless for this type of debate.
2/ Picture 8 in the last link is awful. Head position is the last thing that should be considered when looking for a correctly performing horse, I do not understand why people still focus on the position of the head over the rest of the body. Why does Valegro win so much? Because he is so fully engaged through his back, lifted through his core and round in his entire frame, sitting well back on his haunches and creating lightness and ease of movement....that's why. It's got beggar all to do with where his head is...and quite rightly so.
3/ My main point and the one I am most passionate about - We are forgetting about the horse. I truly believe this. In every thread, article and video I've seen on the subject of head carriage, people bang on and on about where the head should be and that it should be on or just above the vertical. This is what is wanted in dressage, that is because, it is the aim, the goal, what is achieved when everything else has come together. Nobody is forcing anybody to go out and compete, so if people are putting this up as their holy grail...that's their personal issue. What I mean by that is, not all horses are the same. We can't converse in English with horses....if we could, it would be hilarious. Stop the horse half way through schooling and tell it it's head should be on or just above the vertical and you'd get laughed at by some. Not all horses are made equal....some will be out of their comfort zone in the position that humans have decided is the required ideal. Is it fair to judge a horse and rider on that? No. The masters of dressage, those on pedestals that many people quote or reference in threads like this....they all knew that. They understood that each and every mount was different and the focus was on the overall horse, not the head. They knew that years ago...but we are still obsessing over the head being in the *right* position now??? Not only that, but before hailing the masters of dressage as the pinnacle of all that is good in the world...take a closer look....some of the methods and training was downright disgraceful. I am never popular for saying that....but there it is. Not everyone is perfect. Not all horses are the same. Focussing on the head position is fruitless if what you want to do is consider the welfare of the horse (with the exception of obvious forced hyperflexion). They are all different. All I am seeing in the judging of dressage nowadays is that horses that are more correct in their frame (engaged core and hindquarters, rounded, lifted back and self carriage) are being more highly marked than those who are on or just above the vertical but hollow in the back and dropped through the core. I hope it stays that way as the latter is never a good thing to see for the well being of the horse.
If I could promote one thing about the head position of horses in dressage or any other type of work...it would be that it's the last flipping thing that matters!
Lola13
Well-Known Member
That picture of him does seem to have a dipped back, others not so much, but on that video. Better to look at videos. I do like better how Carl manages the horses head most of times, but horses do have dipped back with him sometimes, especially when he loosens up the reins. Gets me thinking why hollow back when just a little more freedom to the head is offered. Hmmm.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgx6IBewcU4 Carl on Valegro
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcDLLxgWa_Y Charlotte on Valegro
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_dic5ghbWA Carl on Uthopia
EQUIDAE
Well-Known Member
Moment in time?
This picture shows different steps in her piaffe, so not a moment, it is entire piaffe:
The rules from British Dressage Members Hand Book:
One example of good head position:
I actually wouldn't consider that a 'good' example. The horse is tense through the throat and is hollow in the back. The pictures shown of Valegro show a horse that is working through the back and soft through the neck. The only reason it doesn't look ike the poll is at the highest point is you are focusing on the crest, not the poll. The horse is minutely BTV.
The horse shown in the first series of pictures looks relaxed and happy to carry the rider, the horse that is shown as a good example looks tense and unhappy in his job.
ETA - I've just seen it is the same person posting both posts I have quoted. You really need to have a look at the overall picture as what you are viewing as 'good' are horses that are working with tension and don't appear happy and relaxed in their jobs.
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Lola13
Well-Known Member
Where did I say everything good on this picture? Just head position, it looks similar to classical head position but it is not that, but I also said in other post that I dont like the rest as I dont like how this riders rides the horse.
Also I mentioned that I cannot find any modern rider riding in clasical style. That is why I posted some pictures in which some body part poses look similar to the real thing. Modern riders as soon as they give a little more freedom to the head everything falls apart.
_GG_
Well-Known Member
Couldn't agree more. I have a big 17.1hh warmblood dressage horse here on livery as he's retired. He's only 8 but retired for non-training related issues. He hasn't worked for 12 months now, not even been sat on - but he can have his nose 20 degrees above the vertical and would still look wrong to Lola13. He can have his poll well above his atlas and axis, but still won't look poll high because he's built that way.
EQUIDAE
Well-Known Member
Have a look on the Enlightened Equitation FB page and website if you want some inspiration. My favourite rider is Valdici Evaristo - truly beautiful and relaxed horses
Lola13
Well-Known Member
Thank you very much, I have found one more modern clasical rider,
http://knighthoodoftheacademicartofriding.eu/
https://www.facebook.com/1401702626...0.1444083690./828717217174559/?type=3&theater
I am interested what people here think of this pictures, not just the head, an overall impression.
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
What do I think, it's so not what I aspire to .
_GG_
Well-Known Member
The facebook picture? A little tense but pretty good form. Something to note on this though is that the angles of the forearm and hindlimb are quite different and there is no evidence of hyperflexion and given the source, shouldn't have ever been hyperflexion used in the training of this horse....so it's a good example that leg angles do not automatically paint a picture about the horses training. Sometimes, that just how a particular horse uses itself.
Lola13
Well-Known Member
Care to share what are the reasons? Not talking about Haute Ecole elements, just riding.
_GG_
Well-Known Member
Me either...horse doesn't look happy and I hate the bit!
Lola13
Well-Known Member
The facebook picture? A little tense but pretty good form. Something to note on this though is that the angles of the forearm and hindlimb are quite different and there is no evidence of hyperflexion and given the source, shouldn't have ever been hyperflexion used in the training of this horse....so it's a good example that leg angles do not automatically paint a picture about the horses training. Sometimes, that just how a particular horse uses itself.
Thank you for your insight. Also would like to hear an oppinion on overall riding https://www.facebook.com/Academic-Art-of-Riding-by-Bent-Branderup-140170262695928/photos/
Lola13
Well-Known Member
Me too, and his hands dont seem to be as gentle as he is saying they are.
_GG_
Well-Known Member
I'm not a massive fan. Too much to go into and personal opinion....and it's late...but I will say that it's possible for anyone to use a *light* hand when you have a 3 inch shank on a bit!