Position of the head in dressage movements

_GG_ said:
I'm not a massive fan. Too much to go into and personal opinion....and it's late...but I will say that it's possible for anyone to use a *light* hand when you have a 3 inch shank on a bit!
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Im talking about his hands, his seem like they would be harsh even with simplest bit. If he is pulling so hard on this shanks what would he do with a snaffle. This shanks offcourse cannot be called light whatever you do with them.
 
Putting myself out there a bit here (eek) but here is my mare - I'm no pro rider and she is only 6 but I am loving the way she is coming on. I aim for uphill, a light shoulder and working through the back. the head position comes all by itself when the horse is working underneath you correctly (well as near to correctly as I am capable of asking for as I'm no CDJ or CH)

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excuse my hands in this pic - it looks like a harsh contact but it was a moment-in-time thing honest

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Her just over 4 months ago...

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In this one she has dropped her head fractionally and is running through onto the forhand so I'm not as happy with

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EQUIDAE said:
Putting myself out there a bit here (eek) but here is my mare - I'm no pro rider and she is only 6 but I am loving the way she is coming on. I aim for uphill, a light shoulder and working through the back. the head position comes all by itself when the horse is working underneath you correctly (well as near to correctly as I am capable of asking for as I'm no CDJ or CH)

image.jpg1_zpspflh6tur.jpg


excuse my hands in this pic - it looks like a harsh contact but it was a moment-in-time thing honest

image.jpg4_zpsavdtiv63.jpg


image.jpg1_zpsyiuifmgu.jpg


Her just over 4 months ago...

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In this one she has dropped her head fractionally and is running through onto the forhand so I'm not as happy with

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What a beauty, I love her blue outfit. :)
 
So after looking all those pictures of famous riders:

Modern dressage riders: If a poll is a bit higher the head and neck are squished or/and the back is hollow, if the head goes in front of vertical or in some cases on the vertical everything falls apart.
Modern classical dressage riders: Harsh hands with even harsher bits and not enough consistency and correctness to be called a good work.
 
Lola13 said:
So after looking all those pictures of famous riders:

Modern dressage riders: If a poll is a bit higher the head and neck are squished or/and the back is hollow, if the head goes in front of vertical or in some cases on the vertical everything falls apart.
Modern classical dressage riders: Harsh hands with even harsher bits and not enough consistency and correctness to be called a good work.
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It depends who you are looking at - there is a lot wrong with the world of dressage but a lot right too. Not all classical dressage riders use harsh bits and not all bits perceived as harsh actually are - a mullen mouth pelham ridden on the snaffle only is a beautiful light bit.
 
EQUIDAE said:
Choc mint ;) She only wears an ear bonnet when it is windy or there are flies about as she is a sensitive soul :)
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I love working with sensitive horses, all of mine are very sensitive and I love the way they respond to every littlest cue in training, and never let me doubt what they are thinking, they allways "tell me" right away. haha :)
 
My morning pondering is that you really cannot separate out bits of a horse for analysis, looking at the head position is pointless without looking at the whole horses posture. If everything else is good apart from a less than 'ideal' head position that is probably still a lot better than most people manage.
 
I also think that most 'classical' riders, particularly the blokes are a bit up their own arses :p.
Knighthoods....

Anja has always seemed a bit more normal ;).
 
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ester said:
I also think that most 'classical' riders, particularly the blokes are a bit up their own arses :p.
Knighthoods....

Anja has always seemed a bit more normal ;).
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I went for some classical lesson a few years ago there had been a thread on here and I thought I would give it a whirl .
I managed three before the unpleasant ego of the trainer did for me .
There was stuff that I took away and found useful like the emphasis of positioning the horse but I did not enjoy the lack of forward ness and expression allowed to the horse and my horse was not happy he felt frustrated by being ridden very slowly in an unnatural rhytmn for him with his head in a very up postion despite the fact he was tense and he was never being ridden through .
He's a difficult horse and I had hoped a different approach might be for him he let me know he did not like it .
The next time I took a Clydesdale / welsh D cob he had an easier mind and it was easier for me to learn rather than dealing with a horse than was upset be the system.
These two lessons were more constructive but I was struggling with the trainer who topped it by saying something so sexist and offensive that I finished the lesson left politely never to return.
 
_GG_ said:
I'm not a massive fan. Too much to go into and personal opinion....and it's late...but I will say that it's possible for anyone to use a *light* hand when you have a 3 inch shank on a bit!
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The length of shank on a bit is not the determinant of how harsh it is though. The length of the piece above the mouthpiece is also key to the leverage forces. If there was no length to the piece above the bit, there could be no pressure on the mouth or poll until the shanks were in a straight line with the rein. Most classical long shank bits seem to me to have a shorter piece above the mouthpiece than most pelhams and weymouths.

With the length of shank and top on classical bits, it's almost impossible to put any significant pressure on the mouth unless the curb is too tight, most is done by subtle poll pressure and by neck reining, when the reins are used at all. These long shank bits are therefore very subtle in the range of aid that they can give. And the longer the shank, the more the hand can move to create the same effect. And for the less well trained horse, they are actually, unless misused, quite forgiving is situations where they may move their head when that movement isn't wanted.

I don't ride baroque classical or in long shank bits, but they are wrongly reviled because of the way they look.

Reverence for all things old escapes me, though. The Duke of Newcastle and his era had seats that would, today, be considered appalling. Sat back with legs stuck forwards and only the tip of the boot in the stirrup!
 
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A nice quote and pic on my fb this morning

Those, who are unable to make their horse balanced, supple and through, should rather abstain from riding gaits that can only be achieved in highest collection, than performing them in a caricatural manner." Oskar Maria Stensbeck (1858 - 1939)
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the same page has this as an example of a classical piaffe, I think it is probably more like valegros than the others posted by the OP earlier (second link)

https://www.facebook.com/accademiae...479412784506/1024804297552014/?type=3&theater

http://postimg.org/image/5ao71ycvr/
 
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Goldenstar said:
These two lessons were more constructive but I was struggling with the trainer who topped it by saying something so sexist and offensive that I finished the lesson left politely never to return.
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some of our more well known female 'classical' trainers are just as ego driven and prone to acting like schoolgirls behind the scenes. I gave up trying to deal with any of them.
 
ycbm said:
The length of shank on a bit is not the determinant of how harsh it is though.
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You are actually incorrect saying this - the longer the lower shank the more the bit can be tipped and the stronger the action.

The physics behind this are that the the further from the centre the action is stronger. Take for example a spanner - the longer the spanner the easier it is to undo the nut. Its hard to undo a nut with your fingers because they are so close to the nut.

The longer the upper cheek the harsher the curb action will be as the curb chain is linked to the bit above the mouthpiece.

Pressure on the poll comes about by the double action of the bit, the shank tilting the bit forward, tightening the curb chain in the chin groove, which encourages the horse to relax the jaw, followed by the pressure on the poll lowering the horses head.
 
MotherOfChickens said:
some of our more well known female 'classical' trainers are just as ego driven and prone to acting like schoolgirls behind the scenes. I gave up trying to deal with any of them.
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One in particular has demonstrated that on here too!

Whereas I have done some in hand work with a classical chap who was lovely, great at answering questions and I hope I can manage to have him back sometime.
 
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Tnavas said:
You are actually incorrect saying this - the longer the lower shank the more the bit can be tipped and the stronger the action.

The physics behind this are that the the further from the centre the action is stronger. Take for example a spanner - the longer the spanner the easier it is to undo the nut. Its hard to undo a nut with your fingers because they are so close to the nut.

The longer the upper cheek the harsher the curb action will be as the curb chain is linked to the bit above the mouthpiece.

Pressure on the poll comes about by the double action of the bit, the shank tilting the bit forward, tightening the curb chain in the chin groove, which encourages the horse to relax the jaw, followed by the pressure on the poll lowering the horses head.
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I am not sure how I can be wrong tnavas, when I said exactly what you have just repeated :)

And let's not forget that the number one criteria in how harsh a bit is are the hands on the other end of the reins. Any bit is harsh on the wrong hands. No bit is harsh in the right hands.
 
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ycbm said:
I am not sure how I can be wrong tnavas, when I said exactly what you have just repeated :)

And let's not forget that the number one criteria in how harsh a bit is are the hands on the other end of the reins. Any bit is harsh on the wrong hands. No bit is harsh in the right hands.
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I completely disagree with that. There are some bits which shouldn't be allowed withn 10 feet of a horse, never mind put in it's mouth - you only have to look at "barrel racing bits." when you have gag action, coupled with a twised wire mouth piece, the best hands in the world aren't going to make it a "good" bit.
 
I would still like to know why classical training is the 'best' and 'correct' way, in comparison to modern dressage? Why is it better? I don't necessarily entirely disagree, I'm just not understanding where this mythical devotion comes from.
 
Apercrumbie said:
I would still like to know why classical training is the 'best' and 'correct' way, in comparison to modern dressage? Why is it better? I don't necessarily entirely disagree, I'm just not understanding where this mythical devotion comes from.
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I think it's because it is recognised that horses worked in such a way remain sounder and more athletic. ie it's good for them.
You would think that with all the technology available today that it would be possible to analyse tests against a desired 'ideal'. Leg angles etc You can monitor heart rate too. Might remove some of the subjectivity from judging.
 
In one of the studies I posted earlier they tested saliva cortisol and heart rate with head positions and the latter wasn't affected, just for info.

I am interested to know if they do remain sounder and more athletic or not, as I said Salinero was still at the olympics at 18.
 
ester said:
In one of the studies I posted earlier they tested saliva cortisol and heart rate with head positions and the latter wasn't affected, just for info.

I am interested to know if they do remain sounder and more athletic or not, as I said Salinero was still at the olympics at 18.
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I suppose that this is my point, more evidence is needed before these sweeping claims can be made. I am actually very pro-classical but I find this evangelism very frustrating as I firmly believe that a closed mind makes a poor trainer. That's what I mean about the nit-picking of Valegro. When a relaxed, happy horse is at the top of its game and yet still being criticised, it is clear that the criticism is entirely arbitrary on the basis of one school versus another, as opposed to genuine merit.
 
Apercrumbie said:
I would still like to know why classical training is the 'best' and 'correct' way, in comparison to modern dressage? Why is it better? I don't necessarily entirely disagree, I'm just not understanding where this mythical devotion comes from.
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I don't know to be honest... it's kind of become something it isn't.

It's about working horses in harmony and lightness to achieve collection and it's not mythical as if you read the dressage rulebook, i actually says that this is the aim. Training a horse using this collection of principles handed down and developed from country to country, century by century will obviously result in a number of styles of classical but the harmony and lightness stays the same. It's basically training the horse using language it understands like weight aids and positive reinforcement. The ultimate aim is collection and the prescribed time to get there is roughly 10 years. This is how long it takes to train a horse properly so you can ride it with reins of spider silk and a seat like a feather (an actual saying i read somewhere from a drawing on a hotel wall). Any horse or rider can achieve collection and lightness and be a harmonious ride when these principles (the training scale) are applied. Indeed the BHS started out teaching this way and some continue to do so.

I don't know what modern is to be fair.. but if it's anything that involves harsh training methods then I'm not interested and is probably modern.

I think modern is classical that has lost it's way a bit?
 
Apercrumbie said:
I suppose that this is my point, more evidence is needed before these sweeping claims can be made. I am actually very pro-classical but I find this evangelism very frustrating as I firmly believe that a closed mind makes a poor trainer. That's what I mean about the nit-picking of Valegro. When a relaxed, happy horse is at the top of its game and yet still being criticised, it is clear that the criticism is entirely arbitrary on the basis of one school versus another, as opposed to genuine merit.
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I agree, I don't know why the evangelistic views exist... but I can imagine why people can start to compartmentalise methods when they see things they like or don't like. e.g. rolkur is the product of "modern" dressage but it existed centuries ago under a different training style.

People forget that dressage is a collection of lots of principles. Rules are written and rewritten.

Personally, if you want to learn all you can, ride many and go to many different teachers and collect what works for you and your horses. As long as it sticks to your principles of harmony and lightness etc.

Competition is a whole different ballgame... I guess you then you need to adapt to win...
 
for me the difference between classical and modern is purely competition. A pure classicist would never compromise what/how they feel the horse should be ridden for a test or ring showmanship and if they follow the French school more, then canter circles at Prelim are out. What I've found along the way is there is a lot of bad in both camps and a lot of misconception of both camps, both want the same result but have different ways of getting there. I now much prefer the 'stop overthinking and get on and do it camp' after years of 'not feeling worthy camp' and 'I mustn't do anything other than walk camp' -the former I learned in Portugal and my local RS.

If I had money and time, I would fully commit to the French school out of interest. I also admire Anja Beran and the in hand work of Marijke de Jong and there are one or two young classical trainers in the UK I know of, who are excellent. People are in cloud cuckoo land though if they think 'classically' trained (in all guises) horses don't break or aren't worked extraordinarily hard though.
 
Apercrumbie said:
I would still like to know why classical training is the 'best' and 'correct' way, in comparison to modern dressage? Why is it better? I don't necessarily entirely disagree, I'm just not understanding where this mythical devotion comes from.
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Classical Dressage took longer to produce the horse, working systematically and steadily, increasing suppleness both longitudinally and laterally, building strength and fitness with the horse co-operating in an harmonious way. It was about getting the horse to be relaxed, with a relaxed jaw. Totally accepting the work without grinding its teeth, pinning its ears back or swishing its tail.

You only have to look at what goes around and in the horses face these days to prove that the horse is resisting. Flash nosebands, crank nosebands, double jointed bits (because horse doesn't like the single joint) In classical dressage we used a simple single jointed snaffle and horses competed in a plain cavesson noseband, done up with two fingers between horse and noseband. Young horses were broken and brought on in a Fulmer and drop - the drop done up loosely enough to allow the horse to relax its jaw and for the horse to be able to accept a cube of sugar (Spanish Riding School), the reason for the drop is to prevent the young horse even learning to open its mouth or evade the bit. We took at least a year between levels to compete - the horse working at home at least a level above what he was competing at. We rarely started competitive dressage before the horse was 5yrs old. Horses only reached the top level around 10 or more years. We took time and didn't fry the horses brain by asking so much so early.

Now its all about the flashy front legs, and until the judges can be made to mark down horses that don't work correctly behind, have their mouths open or tails swishing throughout a test then Modern Dressage is not going to improve.
 
Tnavas, what's wrong with double joined bits? They've been around at least fifty years, afaik, and a lot of horses prefer them to a single joint. Why do you include them in a list of things that prove that a horse is resisting?
 
MotherOfChickens said:
for me the difference between classical and modern is purely competition.
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MOC, just wondering, do you view the difference being a modern phenomena or something that has existed since competition began?

Equestrian sports existed in the Olympics regularly from 1912 (sporadically before that and only really jumping apparently) and the FEI wasn't founded until 1921 but if you look at pictures from then, would you say things are the same?
 
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