Position of the head in dressage movements

[Tnavas]

Tnavas, what's wrong with double joined bits? They've been around at least fifty years, afaik, and a lot of horses prefer them to a single joint. Why do you include them in a list of things that prove that a horse is resisting?

The plain french link has been around a lot longer than 50 years but was rarely used. 99% of horses were ridden in an eggbut snaffle - In the mid 70's the 'Loose ring German Hollow mouth' was the bit in fashion. The early French links had a far shorter centre plate - most often it was two small rings joined together. If you look the skeleton of the lower jar the two jaw bones that make up the bars are at the most 1" apart, while the double jointed bit reduces stops the nutcracker action it now places the joints over the top of the bars, causing bruising and in some cases breaking the skin on the sides of the mouth - see photo below. The nutcracker action is not as harsh as some have tried to make it be - its action limited by the width of the upper jaw, and also the placing of the horses head. I've never found I've needed anything other than a single jointed bit, despite the hundreds of horses that I've schooled. I bring all mine on in a Fulmer & drop - including the TB's off the track who usually need re mouthing, they then go into a single jointed eggbutt snaffle and cavesson noseband.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

MOC, just wondering, do you view the difference being a modern phenomena or something that has existed since competition began?

Equestrian sports existed in the Olympics regularly from 1912 (sporadically before that and only really jumping apparently) and the FEI wasn't founded until 1921 but if you look at pictures from then, would you say things are the same?

I dunno, I'm not that old

I've a feeling its more modern, much can be laid at the feet of different types of horses as well but I got tired of analysing this stuff a few years ago, so I don't. I don't like to watch high level competitive dressage-I find it unattractive although mostly what I've seen is an improvement on around 10 years ago. I would rather watch some of the top WE riders tbh and that is not always pretty (although it looks more fun!).

Most of the riders we see competing are relatively young, they aren't 'made' yet in the way that some of the older 'masters' are, despite their competitive achievements. When we see the likes of late Oliveira, Racinet etc they were much older and were always evolving-all of them changed their viewpoints over the years and many were past their prime physically when we are able to see them on film. Even the likes of PK and Mendez are constantly reviewing what they do and how they get there.

 

[tallyho!]

I dunno, I'm not that old

I've a feeling its more modern, much can be laid at the feet of different types of horses as well but I got tired of analysing this stuff a few years ago, so I don't. I don't like to watch high level competitive dressage-I find it unattractive although mostly what I've seen is an improvement on around 10 years ago. I would rather watch some of the top WE riders tbh and that is not always pretty (although it looks more fun!).

Most of the riders we see competing are relatively young, they aren't 'made' yet in the way that some of the older 'masters' are, despite their competitive achievements. When we see the likes of late Oliveira, Racinet etc they were much older and were always evolving-all of them changed their viewpoints over the years and many were past their prime physically when we are able to see them on film. Even the likes of PK and Mendez are constantly reviewing what they do and how they get there.

Lol!

Good points.

 

[GemG]

Very interesting thread...

A side from the original post being about horses head position I thoroughly recommend a look at

www.eponatv. (Search for Dr Gerd Heuschmann) who provides a very interesting insight into the world of modern dressage and I think he is well placed to comment (think videos are called Dressage Astray). Someone else on here has previously referred to these and they do make for interesting viewing.

Although not about head position alone he is referring to the tension, which as we all know is then expressed through incorrect paces/frame etc etc.... And is sometimes not being penalised as we have become used to a far more extravagant 'show' rather than the correct principles of dressage.

Read also the foreword in General Decarpentary's Academic Equitation.. Refers to us taking shortcuts to achieve the circus act 'show' that is so often applauded (and he was no modern day riding master!) but is detrimental to what we are trying to achieve - the lightness, suppleness and grace that a horse at Liberty has, but with the weight and encumberance of a rider. Again interesting reading.

I am yet to achieve this personally.. But aim to work slowly in that direction!!

 

[tristar]

to add to GemG, also speed is used in the mistaken belief its going forward, calmness is a valuable trait I am trying to breed this into my horses, and by calmness by the way I train.

its was mentioned earlier that some classical trainers look underpowered, or lacking in impulsion, at times, but I find that riding in that way unlocks the horses power, but you need to wait, and be able to set up the horse when it is ready and it will give loads, in fact if tension is the enemy it makes calm and relaxed horses most valuable for dressage, for me the whole idea is to make the horse`s muscles energised yet soft and flexible, while keeping its mind calm.